I have never been a favorite of my mother-in-law. She has made it quite clear from the day that my then soon to be husband announced that we were going to be married, I was not the girl she had selected for him. At first I blew it off as her just being disappointed that I wasn't the LDS girl she was hoping her son would one day marry (I was a convert after all). But it turns out she really had selected a LDS young lady she intended for him to marry and for the next 6 or so years after we were married, every time she spoke to her son, she made a point to tell him how Karen* was doing.

After about 13 years of mental terrorism by her in our marriage, passive aggressive comments, and undermining our parental authority in front of our children, we had enough and my husband gave his mother some very clear boundaries that she was not to cross. (And crossing them came with consequences).

We are now beginning the process of transitioning out of the LDS church, part of that process included making a few changes that weren't exactly earth shattering but to my MIL, they set off alarm bells that told her exactly what our plans were without us having to say a the actual words.

Both my husband and I changed our listed faith on our FB accounts from LDS to "None Of Your Business". She mailed me back the very next day demanding to know if I was ashamed to call myself LDS. I haven't answered that. It's not that I'm avoiding it. I just don't feel that I am required to respond to every single mail I get from someone demanding answers to a question that they really have no right asking in the first place.

I posted something back at the beginning of January stating that my New Years resolution this year was to stop caring what other people though about what I felt/said. If what I felt and said offended someone, I was willing to have a civilized discussion with them to understand their perspective about it but I was no longer going to stay quiet on subjects that matter to me just because I didn't want to upset people's feelings. I then responded to my own posed with detailed instructions for those that felt that my posts might be too much for them to read on how to either unfollow me but still remain friends or how to unfriend me altogether. She then mailed me demanding to know exactly what type of material I was going to be posting that was going to be so obscene that people would unfriend me over it and to rethink my actions.

With all of the drama that has surrounded the legal workings surrounding the issuances of wedding licenses to gay couples in the state of Alabama this week, I made a post that simply said: "Look, if you don't like gay marriage, Don't marry a gay person. If your deeply held religious belief prevents you from being able to issue a license or to marry two legal gay people, don't hold a public office where you would be asked to do this. If your bible tells you that you can't bake a cake for gay people, fine! But understand that you will need to restructure your entire business so that it is in no way shape or form considered a public accommodation. Those are some pretty big legal hoops you are going to have to jump through by the way. Especially if your same bakery is willing to bake a cake for a opposite sex couple that had premarital sex, a child out of wedlock or is already living together before the wedding. Just so you know." ... Well, I'm sure you can imagine how well that post went over with her.

And then we add in a few recent conversations involving our 12 year old son and the decision to not have him receive the priesthood. Now mind you, even if we were TBM, because of his autism, our oldest just isn't at the place to be able to make the decision to receive the priesthood. So no. It wouldn't be happening this year no matter what. But my dear sweet MIL whom I would like to run over with a bus, a big bus, seems to think that the problem must be something bigger. And since we are dealing with a 12 year old, a 12 year old boy with access to technology, his OWN personal technology, the issue must be porn. We received in the mail Friday a box that my dear sweet mother in law sent, paying almost $65 in shipping for, filled with books, leaflets and other helpful material about the evils of porn, how to stop the addiction to porn, repentance from porn. Blah Blah Blah Blah porn.

And so last night after all the monsters got into bed, after I got my husband up to date on the dog situation that he would have to deal with in the morning, I opened a iMessage window with my dear sweet mother in law. I wanted to start out nice, because no conversation ends well when the other person is immediately put on the defensive.

"Hey Roxanna!
I guess, Thank you first for thinking of us and taking the time to put together a box to mail to us. I know with everything you guys have going on, that probably wasn't easy right now. I Just wanted to clear one thing up though.Our decision to now have James receive the priesthood has nothing to do with any sort of worthiness issue. He isn't having any problems with pornography right now. It is something we talk to him about a lot pretty openly and it just hasn't become an issue yet. But thanks for caring about him enough to send some resources. I know you were just trying to help the best you could from half a country away.
So how's the bathroom going? Have you guys picked out tile yet for the shower? I know that was the hardest part for us!"

-- See, I thanked her, I made it clear it wasn't a worthiness issue, Thanked her again, And changed the subject to asking her about a very expensive bathroom project they are in the middle of--

That wasn't ok....

This started a whole line of questioning on exactly what was going on in our house. Why was our son not ready to get the priesthood? Why was I supporting gay marriage which was clearly against the teaching of the church? Why wouldn't I take my family to see the Meet The Mormon's movie when it was in theaters here and they came for a visit and they offered to pay? Why was my son no longer participating in the Scouting program? Why didn't we want to go to the temple with them when they came to our house for a visit? WHAT WAS GOING ON????

This wasn't going well. And so I made the decision. My parents are my problem. His parents are going to be his problem. Yes, I'm a chicken and that's the chicken's way out. So I told him what was going on, I dialed his mother's number and I handed him the phone (he did have the option to press send or not)

And then my husband got to have the most uncomfortable 45 minute conversation of his life, all on speakerphone. I share, with his permission, some of the highlights here.

* Do we know how bad this is going to look to her friends? Having a son and his whole family going apostate? --His response was something along the lines of, 'Gee mom, and here I thought you were going to be more concerned with my eternal salvation and not what the ladies at the cannery thought about your youngest son that they haven't seen in 15 years.'

* What does it matter is Joseph Smith maybe execrated the truth a tiny bit at the beginning? You still feel the spirit whispering that the church is true when you pray? --His response was "JS's "translation of the Book of Abraham is a total lie. He lied and claimed he only had one wife in a sworn document, even having witnesses sign that document to say it was true, some of those witnesses being the family members of his plural wives or the plural wives themselves. There is a lot more mom but honestly, I'm not debating with you.

* This is all because you started playing those video games. I knew when you started playing those internet games you were allowing Satan to enter your home. And look what it's done now. You need to turn back to good wholesome things and turn away from these things that Satan uses to trick you like video games. --His response was something along the lines of 'Look, mom, it's not going to happen. And I really need to get to bed here soon. We have a tower coming out of RF tomorrow morning and it's going to be a cap op. I have a dread and the chance to maybe kill a titan if they bring one out to play. So, Is there anything else you need to ask before I go?

She ended with that she would pray for us. He responded that he appreciated it and that prayers are always welcomed but he was going to have to add a few things to the boundaries that we have in place because she has made it clear over the last 15 years that if it isn't clearly spelled out in a boundary, she is free to speak her mind and do whatever she pleases.

He told her that while he respects that she and her husband are still fully believing and practicing LDS members, he and his family are not. As such, she was to no send LDS themed material of any sort to the house, to the children, to the dog (yes, an incident from the past requires us to even specify the dog). She is not to ask the children about church attendance or testify to them about anything. If something is clearly a spiritual occasion (Christmas) then yes, she is more than welcome to make a comment about the celebration of the birth of our savior Christ. But leave the big theology out of it. If it isn't covered in a Veggie Tale holiday Special, it isn't a topic for discussion with the kids.

I have to laugh a tiny bit at this because she pulled out the waterworks (her go to tactic when things aren't going her way) and because the church is her life, what is she supposed to talk to her grandbaaaabies about. These dear sweet grandbaaaaaabies that we not only keep from her year round because we choose to live on the other side of the US (not that military assignment has anything to do with that or anything) but our decision to leave the church will also break the bonds that will tie us all together for eternity and blah blah blah blah. I told her there was plenty to talk about. Legos. Thomas the Train. Knock Knock Jokes. And if she had to resort to Veggie Tales, I loved the Giant Chocolate Bunny one. (Mainly because I would LOVE to have a giant chocolate bunny to snack on right now).

The conversation ended with her saying my husband would probably hear from his father when he comes back in town (he is away for business right now) and that he is going to be very disappointed in us (I think that's supposed to wound me or something). She will be praying for us and she ask that my husband please ask his wife to not post any more of her provocative postings on Facebook until we get this nonsense settled. (I just have her blocked for now I guess)

My husband is ready to just cut them off. It kind of makes me sad that he isn't really bothered at the prospect of cutting off the relationship he has with his parents. They were never, at least during our married years, close. But still, they are his parents. I don't want to push. Pushing isn't my job. But I'm not sure where to go from here other than to say, well, they are your parents so they are your problem but here is how we have decided to run our life and raise our children. They either need to accept it, look the other way or move on.

(And when it comes to my side, at least my parents, while the do not agree with a lot of what we believe in, they respect my husband and I enough to say that it's our lives, these are our children and this is our choice. So they pretty much have backed off. They have learned that the "I don't want to see this" option on Facebook" is their best friend".


*All Names Are Being Changed Because Not Doing So Is Sort Of a Jerkish Thing To Do.

I think you made a sensible decision (and one that many couples make) when you decided that your husband would take the lead in dealing with his parents.

Once your husband has the initial conversation with his dad, he will likely need to go into boundary defense mode. Otherwise church will be all he ever talks about with his parents. A suggested new boundary rule might be: no more talk about your personal religious choices. Violations will result in an immediate cessation of the conversation. He may need to go through a long "training" process to get his parents accustomed to the new rule.

An old book to get: "When I say No, I feel guilty"

has an easy to read format with dialogs on how to use "the broken record"

Where you agree and re state your position.

I understand your faith is everything to you, but you are not to discuss your faith with my children.

I know you don't like us living so far away, but you may not discuss religion with our children.

I know you think it is unfair, but you are not to discuss religion with our children,


Yes I know what you think and I'm glad that works for you, but we we need to talk about something else....

I understand you are crying and upset, but you are deciding to feel unhappy, no one can hurt you without your permission. now, we can talk about other things that don't upset you, I'm putting patio tomatoes in containers on my back porch this year....


The other powerful book for defining borders is Dwayne Dyers book "Your Erroneous Zones" He has a whole section of how to reply to verbal manipulators. A Mother browbeats her son with if you do this, my heart will beat too fast and I'll end up in the hospital. Mother, I'm sorry you don't like my decision, and if you work yourself into a state, I will visit you in the hospital, but I am still going ahead with my plans.....


Also "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" explains where the abusive person is coming from. They want DOMINATION, not a relationship. Once you read their verbal traps you can more easily outwit and side step their attacks.


Good luck to you, the two of you are doing very well. I hope you also told your RS president to pound sand....really....demanding free services without a prior meet the pooch.....


The book "Understanding the Framework of Poverty" explains the behavior of your RS president. the inability to recognize boundaries and plan ahead....That book shows the scientifically researched cultural behaviors of a poverty mindset and it pervades the entire Mormon culture...its a good read also....

Had an ex-husband (dead now) who used the broken record technique ad nauseum to try and always get his way so I am not a big fan of it. In situations where there needed to be discussion, negotiation, and compromise, he went right to that technique.

I finally discovered that the way to stop that technique cold is to turn it right back on him. He would keep repeating what he wanted in the exact same words and I would keep repeating what I wanted in the exact same words.

I can see it can be effective in a situation such as with OP but think people have to be careful when they use it. It simply turns people from being willing to negotiate a compromise to people who are determined not to be played and stick to their guns 100 %.

Just my thoughts.

Ex-husband used this and a few other techniques (two choices) at work as well. Fired from last job ever at 47 and died a drunk at 65. I don't think he ever figured out what went wrong with his life. So sad but at least the kids and I survived and thrived.

thanks for the book reference. sounds like it would be good advice even outside the LDS realm.

THANK you for the resources! I very much will look into them! This is exactly what we need to be able to deal with, well, honestly what is emotional abuse and hostage taking from that side

Those books are worth finding and reading. They are powerful tools on how to look at manipulators. I have been able to detach myself from a lot of toxic relationships because of what was in those books.

I understood where the person was trying to dominate while claiming they wanted a "loving relationship" which really meant they would be calling all the shots and using your resources, time and energy.

Good luck in your journey.

When I was younger (and even still) once I realized that someone was a master manipulator that would stymie any logical conversation in order to control me, I would end the relationship because I lacked the verbal tools and support to weather the verbal onslaught myself. For example my TSCC @$$h*le male parental unit (can't stand to apply the term father to that monster) prided himself on physically abusing and mentally manipulating his kids even through adulthood. As kids, you have no choice but to deal with it, but once I turned 30 I realized the power was within me to exert control. I assessed that the monster was so set in his manipulative ways that he would accept no other type of relationship, so my approach was to cut off all contact until his death several years ago (best decision I ever made). But......I also think that it is worth trying other techniques to try to save a relationship and for both sides to learn to communicate in a respectful manner. I love the book references to provide tools to help deal with manipulators in a respectful manner, but still maintain your integrity.

I loved the OP's narrative. It was long, but very well written and very interesting. The part about the dog made me laugh. I would love to know how MIL tried to manipulate the dog's religious beliefs....

Me too. I was living that story -- maybe there's more to come. Part 2?

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Mormon Church, right? Good grief!

Well handled, by the way.

You should remind her that the Internet, personal computers, fibre optics, satellite communications, the television, and therefore computer games by Internet were all given to us by God to "forward the work of the Gospel in the Latter Days." Therefore, when one is on the Internet doing games or whatever, one is only in the service of God.

It's so sad when one's life revolves around only Mormonism. One should have something to fall back on.

First of all, do not engage this sort of person in a discussion. No matter what you say, everything = the Church is true. You can't win.

The only way to take the wind out of her sails is to absolutely ignore every comment. Throw away gifts like the one she sent your son and don't acknowledge them. Only acknowledge nice things like a chocolate Easter bunny, or other such gifts. If she doesn't eventually get the message, then she's pretty dense.

Secondly, everything that she says to you is not even about you. It's all about her. Whenever anyone criticizes someone else, it says more about them than it does about the person they are criticizing. I've finally learned this.

Thirdly, it's none of her business. Do whatever you need to do to take care of your immediate family, even if that means limiting her access to your family if she won't quit trying to undermine it.

Congratulations on having the courage to write whatever you like on your own Facebook page.

You need to write more. You have a wonderful way with words. Loved the story, though I feel for you having to live it. All the best.

-Tig

"Both my husband and I changed our listed faith on our FB accounts from LDS to "None Of Your Business""

It may be too late because of what you listed, but my FB account has no religious denomination listed. I couldn't even see where to "change" that, though I did not do a search, I just checked my profile settings

My point being is that you could have just removed your religious affiliation w/o having to add another or even chose an option that says you no longer believe in any religion (even though there's nothing wrong w/that).

I'm not saying your wrong (because you're not. Your religion is strictly your business), but putting it in that manner could put off long time evangelicals, Catholics, and also mormons.

just sayin'..............

I didn't even know that you could list a religious affiliation. I don't think I would ever do that.

Not on Facebook, well I am but post nothing and am only on it to see friends/ families pictures.

Can you just leave it blank? None of your business does sound a little in your face.

A technique I have used successfully at least on the phone when someone starts in on a topic that I feel is off limits is

"Oh, I have to go, someone is at the door. Bye." (And hang up;don't let them get a word in.). They soon get the message when they realize no one has anyone come to the door that often.

You can leave it blank. You don't have to fill in anything for religious affiliation.

i have a nevermo family member that employs similar tactics. we pretty much ignore this person and see them the bare minimum requirements (like Christmas and the occasional birthday) Once, in the middle of one of those events this person started in and tried to make things about them. My husband just quietly packed up the kids and left with no apologies (I was at work)


works for us

Having lived through this several yrs ago with a passle of young kids myself, I can give you some very concrete and practical suggestions to try. These suggestions helped nurture the relationship between my kids (husband and I both avidly ex-Mo) and the in-laws (very TBM).

--- kept several large mailing envelopes in the kitchen with their address on the front. Throughout the week if there was a cute coloring picture, school paper, or funny story the kids would narrate to me, I'd just pop it into the folder. Once it was full, I'd hand it to my husband (not sealed) to mail to his parents. No letter from me included, just "kids stuff". If he chose to include a card or message to them, that was his deal. Be consistent with this, and you should see DRAMATIC improvement in the relationship as it'll give her something to focus on and talk about.

--- send a weekly or monthly email to the entire family (those you actually care about and your in-laws) with a few lines for each family member, talking about how they are doing, cute things they said, etc. This one-way communication works, as the email gets passed around the family, and they actually have to THINK about what to say before responding (MUCH MUCH better than posting to Facebook, as that can ignite instant, flammable feedback from TBM's).

And that's it. We don't do birthday cards, anniversary cards, or Christmas gifts (his parents get a gift card to Home Depot or Lowes or a big batch of steak from Omaha Steak or something). We withdrew from the "mega-family Christmas drawing" years ago, WHEW !!! So much stress released.

They LOVE these little updates I do. Makes up for all kinds of perceived sins. Yup, we're FAR away military too, so I totally hear you.

Sending hugs and good vibes your way. Good luck friend. This military mom hears ya.

that pretty much describes mormonism.

My MIL was Catholic and a mirthless, spiteful bitch. I could write a book about my MIL issues. She's doin' the dirt nap, thankfully. At least at the end, her Alzheimer's made her forget all the people and things she hated, including me.

Ron Burr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2015 02:16PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

Thank you for your story. It's so helpful to hear how people manage their TBM family members. My own mother is not a manipulator, but she does think it's her God commanded, motherly responsibility to get me to come back. She been pushing me to have a Private Talk. And all I do is avoid her. Avoidance is not healthy, I know, but it's easier. For now.

So thank you!

OK, everything posted is all well and good............HOWEVER, you just have to share whatever it was about the DOG. What did she send the dog? Was the dog converted????

I'm dying to know too!

My stepmom (hereafter referred to as mom since that's what I call her anyway) is a master of snide comments. I had to deal with something on my own recently and she inserted her little "Well, if you had visiting teachers, you'd have people to call!" To which I responded that we have lived here for over 2 years and I have seen a visiting teacher once, ONCE, and this includes time that we were semi-active. And the only reason I saw one was because her husband is our home teacher because he and I grew up together. (They happened to be stationed here when we moved to the area, I hadn't seen him in years before that.)

Recently, my stepmom and I talked about David's and my decision to leave the church. They still don't know we are going to resign, I don't feel like having that convo any time soon. But she is just absolutely positive that the only reason we don't believe is because we just haven't read enough or studied enough or prayed enough. She told me that it took her years to get the "right" answer, and since I'm only 35, I haven't spent enough time on it. I told her that I feel like it won't matter what I tell her, until I get the same answer she got, she won't accept anything I say. She says that's not true but that's exactly what she's telling me. It's insanely frustrating.

it's MY parents we struggle with.

Sent a cone of shame so the dog would stop licking his or her junk. It sounds ludicrous until you know that two different RfM members have had parents freak out about giving their cats catnip.

I agree with the people who say don't try to reason with her. She's beyond reason. I would just concentrate on trying to keep a religious barrier between her and your kids. Open their letters/packages. Send back anything inappropriate. Listen to their conversations. She believes she is right and probably thinks it's her sacred duty to save your children from their misguided, Satan inspired parents. So you have every right - in fact, a duty - to protect them from her. If she can't play nicely with other children, then she can't play. Period.

As far as Facebook is concerned, you can make a custom category "Friends except MIL." Then when you post anything, chose to share with that custom group. When she doesn't see anything from you come across her newsfeed, she'll think she's been unfriended but when she checks, she won't be. I'm not saying you should pander to her problems but you'll avoid a lot pointless conversations. Now that you've thrown down the gauntlet, she's just going to use your postings as a reason to start an argument, thinking she can out cry or out reason or out spiritual you. You don't need that.

Finally, I think you were right to make your husband's mom his problem primarily. People should deal with their own parents. It may be easier for him to cut her off completely. He may need to do so. Let him handle that his way for a while and when he's processed whatever he needs to, maybe he will be more open to establishing a better relationship with her. Right now, it sounds like he needs a break from her and although you are sweet to be concerned, you might make more progress down the road, after he's had a vacation from his family. Good luck.

Totally agree with this poster. If your husband says he wants to cut off contact, don't try to talk him out of it. Maybe a vacation from them of indeterminant length will make them behave. Probably not but t least you get a break from them. Wasted too much time trying to get along with my mother-in-law.

I agree, if your husband wants to cut off all contact with his toxic mom, let him. In my opinion, life's too short to have to put up with abusive people.

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

The dog. Sigh. The dog. Yes, we even have to have set boundaries when it comes to the dog because the MIL has proven in the past with another sibling that even the dogs are not off limits when it comes to being used to push the mormon message. When one of my husband's siblings had a child born very premature and MIL came out to help with the other children at home while mom and dad tried to balance the NICU and work, MIL took it upon herself to give the dog a haircut. Now, the dog probably gone without a haircut. It wasn't a "need". This is a medium breed dog that normally has a poofy head, tail and legs and everything else is trimmed pretty close to the body but my BIL had decided to just let the dog have the hair all one length. The older kids did a pretty good job brushing out the dog to avoid matting so BIL really didn't see the reason to pay money for frequent grooming on a family pet who got along perfectly fine without the fancy haircut. MIL had once made extra money for the family to be able to have school supplies and what not when my husband was little by learning how to groom dogs so she decided to give BIL's dog the appropriate trim to it's breed. With a little extra flair. My BIL got off work that afternoon and took his shift at the NICU, relieving his wife so that she could return home, shower, change clothes and have a few hours sleep before she had to go back to the hospital. I guess she no more walked in the house, saw the dog's new haircut ... and then turned around walked back to the car and drove back to the hospital and told her husband that she was going to sleep at the hospital and he should probably go home and deal with his mother before she said something that couldn't be unsaid.

My MIL had groomed the hair on the dogs butt to leave hair to spell out "RULDS2"

So yes, we have to specifically have rules regarding the dog.

Oh, my WORD. You can't make this stuff up. lol

Congratulations on your ability to set clear boundaries in a kind and appreciative manner. You have bent over backwards to make yourself clear with the relatives being a nuisance in your lives. Yes, you need to take care the difficulties with your own families. I see no problem there. On a scale of one to 10, 10 being the worse, they are an 11 +!!

My advice is not to not say another word about any of it. There is the notion that your choices are up for discussion and criticism. So, you're going to have to put a stop to it, more firmly. You've told them more than they are entitled to know anyhow. If they call, tell them ahead of time: no religious discussions, period or we will hang up. We will require you to live the 11th Article of Faith and set a good example! If they send anything more, you are going to send it back and to save their money.

The Articles of Faith - #11:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Just keep repeating the article of faith, write it on anything that comes to you.

The dog hair cut was a funny one!!