Was it persecution like Mormons would claim?

To eventually go out west to practice polygamy?

Because cults don't fit in established societies?

Were Mormons taking peoples daughters?

For power hungry leaders to start a cult somewhere?

To eventually go out west for free land and no laws?

Or something else?

I mean, for a religious movement whose MO is to convert the planet, yet can't fit in anywhere except a barren plateau in the middle of nowhere.

And to get there caused the deaths of many, many followers.

A horny, womanizing, glass looking conman and his deluded followers didn't necessarily have a hard time making enemies. I know it's hard to believe, but it's true!

Many very good books on the topic:

"Massacre at Mountain Meadows" by William Wise.

"Blood of The Prophets" by Will Bagley.

"An Authentic Account of The Massacre of Joseph Smith, The Mormon Prophet, And Hyrum Smith, His Brother" by George T.M. Davis.

"Joseph Smith, The Prophet, His Family And His Friends. A Study Based on Facts and Documents; Volume First" by Dr. W. Wyl.

"Brief History of The Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints (Commonly Called Mormons;)" by John Corrill.


They we "persecuted" because they were terrorists.

What I have gleaned from what I have read from non-Mormon sources.

Step one: Joseph told his followers that God had chosen a certain city to be theirs.

Step two: Joseph's following moved into a city and took over making life miserable for the previous inhabitants with their unscrupulous methods.

Step three: At some point the towns people had enough and retaliated against the Mormon's pushy,greedy, entitled , daughter-seducing, polygamous, bank-frauding ways. Retaliation is not the same as persecution. The towns people were just standing up for themselves. Enough was enough!

Step four: God instructs Joseph that he has chosen a new town for them.

Step five: Rinse and repeat.


Step six: The persecution card is played as the ultimate proof that Mormons are God's chosen.

All of the above.

The early LDS were driven from place to place.

One of my ggggrandfathers body gave out from having to move in the dead of winter several times over, with his family. He'd been a bodyguard of Joe's and a close friend of Joe's uncle.

He died at around 66 just as he and his family were preparing to move westward to Utah.

They wanted to stay put, but were literally driven out of their homes one right after another.

He wasn't a polygamist. He was the only ggggrandfather on my Mormon side who was monogamous.

Palmyra, NY

Kirtland, Ohio

Jackson County, Missouri

Nauvou, Illinois

SLC, Utah

Not fitting in anywhere.

JS should have received a revelation, or read a self help book...How to fit in, when you're a conman

Joe didn't want to fit in though.

He wanted to be "King of the Hill" at any cost.

He was a renegade and an outlaw living on the fringe of society.

Who happened to be somewhat charismatic and cunning enough to deceive those who hitched their wagons to his star.

The early move from New York to Kirtland, Ohio was about getting near Sidney Rigdon's base of followers. No persecution involved.

The move to Missouri was drawn out in time. That was the frontier of the US at that era, and Joseph wanted to put his community there to get federal contracts for dealing with the Indians and, apparently, he wanted to have some personal dealing with the Indian ladies as well. The failure of Smith's ponzi scheme, the Kirtland Safety "Anti-Banking" Society, forced Smith and other church leaders to leave Ohio suddenly, and the church then made its move to Missouri. Again no persecution involved, just some criminals fleeing the area by night.

The Missourians were welcoming to the Mormons and set aside a county for them to settle in. However, the Mormons started settling in other counties as well and voting as a block. This led to disagreements with the Missourians and ultimately the 1938 Missouri war. Sidney Rigdon and Joseph had threatened to exterminate the Missourians and take over the whole area for Mormon use. After a brawl on election day, the Mormons started using armed gangs to intimidate the Missourians and eventually looted and burned the county seat of Gallatin and the town of Millport, along with other settlements. The Mormons were perpetrating a violent rebellion. After the president of the Quorum of the Twelve, Thomas Marsh, and his fellow apostle, Orson Hyde, reported the Mormon atrocities and the existence of the Danites to the Missouri authorities, and after a group of Mormons attacked a cadre of Missouri state militia that was guarding a county border, Governor Boggs issued Missouri Executive Order 44, which was intended to quell the rebellion and throw the Mormons out of the state.

Far from persecuting the Mormons, the Missourians just wanted to keep the Mormons from harming them. The Mormons, including Joseph Smith and the other leaders, were permitted to leave the state, and went to settle in Illinois, where they established the town of Nauvoo. The Illinoisans were welcoming and believed the Mormons' tales of "persecution". But Joseph Smith and his buddies got up to their old tricks again, including counterfeiting, fraud, an attempt to assassinate the (by then) former governor of Missouri Boggs, the formation of a secret in-group practicing plural marriage, etc. This culminated with the defection of first presidency member William Law, who set up a newspaper, the Nauvoo Expositor, to expose the misdeeds of Smith and the Mormon church. After a single issue was published, Smith had the press destroyed, which led to the his being imprisoned at Carthage jail and being killed by a mob there.

The Mormons weren't persecuted for their beliefs. If anything, their neighbors were quite tolerant of their weird ways. Things only got heated when the Mormons committed crimes against their neighbors, and against their own.

Thanks for spelling it out so concisely. Now if only I could get my Dad to read what you wrote. He can't comment enough on how persecuted the Mormons were to the point he gets teary.

Ask him for a list of the people killed or the women raped by persecutors of Mormonism. I'm sure he'll claim that hundreds and thousands were killed/raped/died by exposure, etc., but I bet he can't name any.

Heck, ask him how many people were killed due to Boggs' "extermination" order. The answer is probably zero. The people killed at Haun's Mill don't count because the order hadn't been received there yet. The Haun's Mill massacre occurred because the Missourians believed that this group of Mormons was going to attack them, and wanted to make a preemptive strike. Remember, this is after the Danites had looted and burned several towns.

Also remember that most of those killed at Haun's Mill were armed men who had holed up in a poorly chosen, almost indefensible, building that became a death trap. This was not a massacre of unarmed civilians: both sides were shooting at each other. The difference is that there were more Missourians and that these didn't pick a bad location to fight from.

East Coast Exmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ask him for a list of the people killed or the
> women raped by persecutors of Mormonism. I'm sure
> he'll claim that hundreds and thousands were
> killed/raped/died by exposure, etc., but I bet he
> can't name any.
>
> Heck, ask him how many people were killed due to
> Boggs' "extermination" order. The answer is
> probably zero. The people killed at Haun's Mill
> don't count because the order hadn't been received
> there yet. The Haun's Mill massacre occurred
> because the Missourians believed that this group
> of Mormons was going to attack them, and wanted to
> make a preemptive strike. Remember, this is after
> the Danites had looted and burned several towns.
>
> Also remember that most of those killed at Haun's
> Mill were armed men who had holed up in a poorly
> chosen, almost indefensible, building that became
> a death trap. This was not a massacre of unarmed
> civilians: both sides were shooting at each other.
> The difference is that there were more Missourians
> and that these didn't pick a bad location to fight
> from.


The one part of the Haun's mill raid that really bothered me was the part about the women being tied to benches so that the men could come in and rape them at will. Did it really happen that way or was it fabricated?

Fabricated.

The story of an unnamed woman (singular) being bound to a church pew and raped comes from affidavits written by members of Smith's inner circle, including Hyrum Smith, Parley P. Pratt and Brigham Young. These affidavits were written to gain sympathy from others and possibly compensation from the government.

Try this link and search in the page for the word "rape". http://www.gutenberg.org/files/47707/47707-h/47707-h.htm

The affidavits read like classic fake news: evil Missourians doing horrible things to poor innocent Mormons. I don't give them an ounce of credibility.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> He can't comment enough on how persecuted the
> Mormons were to the point he gets teary.

Yes, It's the patented Mormon "Heartsell" which makes you WANT to
believe. Mormonism is not about truth. Mormonism is about
believing no matter what.

Heartsell. Exactly. My parents are sold. There is no fact ever that could change your mind. Besides. Facts are not to be trusted and shouldn't even be addressed.

If you want to be creeped out, watch a General Conference talk. Notice the almost hypnotic sing song cadence they all talk with. No sir, nothing culty about that.

That's the one where Mormons and Missouri militia exchanged fire with David W. Patten (Captain Fearnaught) being killed; his white coat him an easy target...

In retaliation, Parley P. Pratt shot and killed a member of the militia... When he was murdered in Arkansas a dozen years later--by a man whose husband he'd taken as his 12th wife--he was traveling under an assumed name because of the Missouri murder warrant.

There were a good many God-fearing decent Mormons by the time they settled in Nauvoo, but the inner circle was as corrupt as any Cosa Nostra organization, and the faithful provided "window dressing" for the criminal activities of church leaders.

Mormons were basically always being shits, and people wanted them gone. They eventually moved to Indian territory, where they could dig in their heels and become the shits they hoped to be. Although the modern Mormons have changed tack on being shits, they have just taken it on the road, manifesting it in new ways, spreading it to new lands and territories. In these Latter Days, LDS leaders have taken being shits to a whole new level, and have made a point of not apologising for it by actually saying, "We don't apologise."

The street version. Yup!

cludgie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormons were basically always being shits, and
> people wanted them gone. They eventually moved to
> Indian territory, where they could dig in their
> heels and become the shits they hoped to be.
> Although the modern Mormons have changed tack on
> being shits, they have just taken it on the road,
> manifesting it in new ways, spreading it to new
> lands and territories. In these Latter Days, LDS
> leaders have taken being shits to a whole new
> level, and have made a point of not apologising
> for it by actually saying, "We don't apologise."

Cludgie, this gave me a good laugh right when I really needed one! Thanks for that! And, yep, they were ordained and did hold the holy shithood.

Cludgie, I laughed, too. :D

A: Fraud And Sex

Fraud, sex and gold digging (scams).

When I was a TBM kid my mom took me to Nauvou to where the Mormons had settled and where JS was killed. The tour guide said the entire area had been a swamp that the Mormons drained and turned it into a beautiful town that others were envious of. Eventually they were driven out so that others could take the land. I believed that tall tale but now I know better.

They built it with borrowed money. Skipping town with Briggy meant they could stiff their creditors. That’s how they were able to walk away.

Mormons stink, lie and don't pay their bills.