Besides pathological liar Paul H. Dunn, the other one who stands out is Martin McNeill, who murdered his wife and nearly got away with it. Until his daughters had their local DA reopen the case in Pleasant Grove, Utah.

He was a slick Willy/psycho for the longest time. And yet managed to lead a medical facility where he lived, father a slew of children with his beauty pageant queen Utah TBM wife. And serve as bishop in his local ward while having affairs on the side.

Can you just imagine the "Bishop's Courts" he presided over?

He hid behind his Mormon facade for the longest time in a Mormon stronghold.

Makes one wonder who else is hiding skeletons in their closets while presiding over a shepherd's flock, while possibly getting away with literally murder? Were it not for the tenacity and persistence of McNeill's daughters, he would have.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2017 07:45PM by Amyjo.

Not unique to Momism, but quite possibly out of proportion;

Mormonism doesn't mesh well with Reality in most areas of life / day-to-day living, that's for sure.

That said, if one limits view to the classic guy works / mom at home situation ... guys must deal with employment realities whereas women Don't.

just sayin'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2017 08:08PM by GNPE.

I hear ya.

And yet, what is it about Mormonism that attracts sociopaths to it like flies to a honey strip?

This Psychology Today article was written by a LDS Sunday School teacher who works as a lawyer in her day job. She makes no bones about how being a Mormon and a self-described sociopath go so well together.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a sociopath's dream. Mormons believe that everyone has the potential to be godlike—I believe this includes me. Every being is capable of salvation; my actions are what matters, not my ruthless thoughts, not my nefarious motivations. Everyone is a sinner, and I never felt that I was outside this norm.

When I attended Brigham Young—where students were even more trusting than the average Mormon—there were myriad opportunities for scamming. I stole from the lost and found, saying I lost a book, but then I would take the "found" book to the bookstore and sell it. Or, I'd take an unlocked bike that sat in the same place for days. Finders, keepers."

She said she has daydreams of murdering people. She just doesn't act on her impulses. She also works as a professor.

She believes her sociopathic traits make her a better lawyer ...
because they are so good at lying through their teeth.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/confessions-sociopath

She says it doesn't matter what she thinks, it's what she does: she can have vile, hateful thoughts and motivations, and she's okay as long as she doesn't act on them. Thus, as long as you're "clean enough" to pass the bishop's interview, you can get your temple recommend and you're good to go. Christ emphasized that it's what's in the heart that counts, not the outward appearances--hence, his frequent condemnation of the Pharisees for their legalistic adherence of the Law (Torah).

But here's the kicker--she admits to stealing bicycles and defrauding the used bookstore. I would ask her: How many, or how serious, sins do you have to commit before you acknowledge yourself a sinner?

I knew quite a few from church who fit her description. It didn't occur to me before reading her article that closet sociopaths are rampant in Mormonism. But then it does make sense remembering the hateful tendencies of some of the characters there while feigning religiosity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2017 12:40AM by Amyjo.

The fact that she is so articulate and understands exactly how evil she is, makes me feel queasy.

I imagine that I have met people like her before, but probably did not realize it. I'm grateful for that.

Walking, talking, self-aware evil. YUCK.

I've read her book. I think she's actually more of a narcissist. If you read the whole thing, you'll notice an awful lot of bragging. I guess it's possible to be both, but it's my impression that few psychopaths go out of their way to seek a spotlight.

In any case, I did some follow-up research on-line - for whatever that's worth. Seems some of her students figured out who she was - she appeared on some Dr. Phil type talk show on tv - in a bad wig. I believe she'd already quit her teaching position at St. Mary's law school in Texas, and had accepted another at BYU's, when the news got out, and BYU either withdrew it's offer or cancelled her contract.

I think she's currently unemployed. I don't know whether to be glad one less psycho/narcissist is out there terrorizing students or to be sad knowing BYU's sorry excuse for a law school dodged this bullet.

what does slick willy mean ?

Ask Boner.

Regarding Martin MacNeill, he proclaimed himself to have been a bishop in his feigned hysteria after fake-finding his newly-drowned wife, but I never found the claim corroborated even once, and I looked hard for corroboration. Someone I know very well has reviewed his church record and said there was nothing in there indicating he had been a bishop.

It's not at all hard to believe he would have been a bishop. If a professional man moves outside of the morridor, all he probably has to do is to show up to church in a white shirt and tie a few times to be called as a bishop. Hell, they might even call ME as a bishop if I showed up clean-shaven two or three Sundays in a row dressed in the mandatory uniform.

I'm not saying he wasn't a bishop. Records can be incomplete. Still I'm curious. Does anyone have any information regarding where or when MacNeill was actually a bishop?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2017 02:07AM by scmd.

All the major news outlets reported that he was a former bishop. His bio on Wikipedia states that he was. It wasn't highlighted where he served as bishop, but if you look at his bio he spent a majority of his professional life as a medical doctor and con artist in Pleasant Grove, Utah.

That's where I believe he had served in a bishopric. He was an adult convert to Mormonism (probably because of how easy it was for him to blend in, and how trusting Mormons are.)

There's also a very good chance he could have made that up given his propensity for telling falsehoods and committing felonies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2017 06:54AM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> There's also a very good chance he could have made
> that up given his propensity for telling
> falsehoods and committing felonies.

I've never seen any source supporting his assertion or anyone admitting to have been in his congregation while he served as bishop. Of course he could have been a bishop, but I really wonder if he made it up.

Can the mormon church create sociopaths? That previously never were?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2017 02:58AM by badassadam.

Not sure it creates sociopaths. If someone has sociopathic tendencies and is or becomes a Mormon, it may be a genetic trait that is passed on generationally.

As the woman psycho shares in her blog (link posted above,) Mormonism is a magnet for sociopaths.

The mormon church does create sociopaths that were not previously sociopaths. By teaching people to lie in worthyness interviews (least they be shamed by not keeping pace with their peers) while creating false morality issues that are really not morality issues, they create liars and hypocrits. An example of a false morality issue is like when a young couple has sex (pre-marriage) as a normal part of the bonding process, and the church leaders deem them immoral (as in "we were immoral"), instead of just saying they had sex.

I think that the church should absolutely be on the hook when a mormon bishop commits a crime or does something morally repugnant. If the church were true, these bishops would not have been selected. The church wants unrestrained growth, let them suffer the consequences of their own immoral choices.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2017 07:43AM by azsteve.

Thats what i thought from being around a lot of people in the church. Its like the perfect breeding ground for sociopaths and other crazy mentalities.

Mormons and Mormonism drove me crazy. That's gotta count for something.

Me as well.

There was a husband-wife team of con artists in our ward, when we first moved into it. Being divorced and single, I was enough of an outsider, that everyone told me their stories. Our East-side SLC neighborhood was crime central!

Anyway, I used to wonder how this couple could be so generous at Christmas, and put on such an act of being saintly, and go to the temple and believe that they were going to the Celestial Kingdom. When the husband stopped paying his employees, and declared bankruptcy, several men in our neighborhood, who worked for the crook, lost their houses. It made the local news. How could these crooks pretend to be good parents, adopt orphans, send their kids on missions, appear so friendly, and the whole Mormon agenda?

I got my answer, without asking. The crook's wife was my VT, and the lesson that month was on an article in the Ensign. I wish I had saved that article! It said, essentially, that if you do enough good deeds, that many of your sins will be "balanced out." God will be more willing to forgive your bad deeds, based on your good deeds. We are judged according to our works.

Hence, the Mormon philosophy: if you pay tithing, it's OK to cheat your neighbors. If you appear virtuous, then you are virtuous. Give showy Christmas presents, and you can get away with not paying your employees. Attend the temple regularly, and keep your calling, and your Mormon neighbors will give you an open house party, when you move away. The 4 other neighbors who were employees, and who lost their houses, were not given open houses. One employee couple cried in testimony meeting, saying that they felt unworthy, because they were having trouble forgiving the con-artists. They were homeless, had to scramble to find work, and find another place to raise their children.

The con-artist and wife are "retired," and they travel a lot. They are still a stalwart Mormon couple. (Unfortunately, the conning continues, in a different business, now.)

It doesn't help that TSCC looks the other way at fraudsters and con-artists. As long as they give the corp 10% of whatever they con people out of or make through fraud or illegal business practices, it all evens out.

But make an honest living and only give them 8% (and be honest about it) and no recommend for you!

Even when i paid 10% i still couldnt answer the question about all fifteen men being prophets. I realized then and there that my quest to see what the f#ck went on in the temple for myself was over. I would have to settle for youtube. But i think i got spared by the sounds of it.

Truism.

The most hypocritical self-righteous bastards held some of the highest positions, and the main reason wasn't determined by their holiness or saintliness. Their worthiness was measured by how much they tithed.

If those kinds of people are going to inhabit their own corner of heaven, they can have it. Save the best for the rest! ;-)

I wish punishment was more severe for white collar criminals.

I think every ward has at least one of those type of cons from Breeze's story.

Years ago, I ended up in a conflict with another church member that involved the police. I came home one night to hear the loud sounds of hard pounding/screaming sex coming from the other side of my bedroom wall (apartments) where my ex-girlfriend (she and I had just broken up) lived. According to the police report, I came over unprovoked and was disorderly (disorderly conduct - no violence and no threats of violence). I told him I was going to tell his bishop and left. A few minutes later, he was standing at my door, screaming in at me repeatedly and out of control "you can't tell on me. You can't tell on me".

A few weeks later, we sat accross eachother in his Bishop's office. After my giving he and his bishop an accurate and explicitly descriptive account of what had happened that night, all I wanted was for him to tell the prosecutor's office what had provoked me, since no one believed it. After I finished talking, he looked his Bishop in the eyes and said "I can honestly look my savior in the face and say that what he just said is not true". Then he got an extremely guilty look on his face, looked down, and refused to look directly at his Bishop after that. The Bishop looked down and said "I think I've heard enough now", meeting over. The Bishop had previously told me that he would encourage this guy not to testify at all. I told the Bishop "no, I need him to show up and just tell the court the truth". Despite the big lie, his Bishop later told me that he told the other guy not to testify, and then after that, this guy wouldn't even show to give a statement to the prosecutor's office. I had been completely honest with the officer and thus ended up accepting responsibility for mistermeanor disorderly conduct to avoid emberrasing the church during a trial and maybe losing still. I maintain that the Bishop took part in a malicious prosecution by knowing what he knew and supporting it as a secret from the court, even telling his ward member to not testify at all. I was convinced that given my restraint that night under some extreme provocation, that the prosecutor would have dropped the charges if he knew the truth.

Years later, I realized how stupid my loyalty to the church was. What bothers me still is that the Bishop knew the truth and he still supported a malicious prosecution to protect his ward member from the consequences of lieing in a police report, and to minimize the liklihood that a returned missionary's sexual activity and then his lieing about it to the police (unprovoked, really?), would emberras the church in a public trial.

A mistermeanor disorderly conduct conviction really isn't that big of an infraction to recover from and move-on relatively unaffected. I remember wishing that I believed I was guilty because I couldn't reconsile any church leader supporting an injustice against someone to protect a guilty person from the consequences of their own actions. That completely broke my shelf once it sunk in what had really happened. This guy even invoked his "savior" to make the lie believable if he could. This Bishop was even indignant that I even brought the church in to it. I had hoped that any church leader would at least want to keep their ward member honest.

The ex-girlfriend wasn't even home that night. This guy and his girlfriend were just using her apartment. But this wasn't the first time loud sexual activity from my 'good church member' friends had came through my bedroom wall while I was grieving the loss of a woman who had recently told me that she loved me and then become the neighborhood use-all within hearing distance of where I slept every night. Some of the time she was entertaining my former friends and my neighbors herself. Other times others used her apartment as a place to have sex. She later had a kid that didn't match any of the paternity tests of the men that were tested. The same Bishop that covered up the malicious prosecution, threatened me with physical violence when I told him I was going to have to file a paternity suit.

The final analysis: church leaders will lie to you, will threaten you with violence, and will even support others who lie about you even when they know the truth to be something else. Their goal is to build a little income center for their part of the church, not to teach their members to act in good character. The truth is irrelevant and they justify this by claiming that everyone should just forgive, and to emphasize the importance of the mission of the church, which apparently should accommodate any tactic they find necessary to make the world believe they are who they want others to believe they are, when they're rotton to the core.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2017 01:05AM by azsteve.