but I don't know what to do. I hear the U in Salt Lake isn't a bad place to transfer.

This pressure has been building, and its clear to me now that I cannot make peace with Mormon culture. It's all I've known, and I thought maybe if I did enough study and criticized it sensitively enough, people would respect me and grant me sacred space.

Silly me.

A friend of mine just became unhinged because I let slip that porn wasn't a big deal to me. He was struggling to keep up with me, but usually ultimately agreed with the criticisms of the church and what it does to people psychologically. But when he heard porn––oh shut the relationship down!––he became angry with me. Because, don't you see, porn is the root of all psychological problems or difficulties! He thought I was just feeling guilty and seeking to justify myself by speaking evil of the church and using him as a tool to make myself feel better.

He is a tool, but not mine.

Our friendship is now imploding. He accuses me of lying to and manipulating him. I felt like he was coming off his high horse and starting to understand me a little bit, but then he caricatured me unto himself.

I've known him for a while, ever since I got here to the Burg. That first semester I was optimistic, but once I realized it was just more of the same Mormon culture as back home, my countenance fell. Then that's when he met me.

I've been reclusive and introverted by nature for a long time, but Rexburg really brings those qualities out of me hard. My social life here is dead. Before, it was because of feelings of unworthiness and fear of rejection. But I finally granted myself permission to research, without bounds, any knowledge I wanted. I found atheism, and I grew confidence in myself that maybe some of the things I had been taught were unfounded.

That was foundational to my recovery to a healthy mental state, something I've never had in all my years of going to church. What?––those feelings of rejection and conditional love I felt since Kintergarten were because I was addicted to porn then too?

I didn't tell him everything, because he didn't deserve to know everything. He's not my wet-nurse, and I don't owe him shit. But he's been reaching after me, instigating conversation, and sympathizing with me. It felt good.

I couldn't connect with him past a certain point though, because he's a tool, he's a tool for the Mormon ideology, and his idea of recovering me to happiness is turning me into a tool as well, that perfectly obedient engine of the Holy Spirit that leads us about to serve others and serve the church forever and pay 10% and get married, even if it does not fulfill you as a person to be married to a woman, and have lots of kids and try to sprout as many people like yourself as possible before you finally die and go to the Celestial Kingdom to enjoy the happiness that Mormon life never gave you and will never give anyone.

There are oases of happiness in the church, but these are the flukes, and the troubled/perfectionist/struggling/self-loathing/insecure/no-boundaries/codependent/conditional-love side of the church is more systematic.

In my opinion, no one can be happy who takes Mormonism text-book seriously, but that's all this university peddles. They teach the secular philosophies of men mingled with scripture, and seek to justify any position the Brethren now currently hold with a cherry-picking of secular knowledge.

My friend has a psych degree. How the F#&% did this converstion of ours even happen? What the hell are they teaching over there in the psych department? It makes me think that they do cover the material in class that is necessary to technically be an accredited university, but then after each point a know-it-all TBM professor single-handedly tells the students why every other scientist out there in the same field doing peer-review can sit on their thumbs and spin, before the students are able to piece the secular principles together into a coherent whole.

I realize a degree with BYU on it isn't worth the paper it's written on! And i don't want one! All it is a degree in Mormon confirmation bias, just pick your emphasis.

I thought it would be worth it to stick out this last 3 semesters and just get my degree and go, but I just can't... This place is poisonous. The degree is only really respected within a Mormon sphere, isn't it? And if I apostatize completely, I've heard that BYU sends you a letter asking for "their" degree back.

Staying here and trying to make something work isn't working. I understand now, that even among the "educated" and the "mature," I will be hated for my views. You can't be an agnostic liberal Mormon. They're just not having it. I will leave, and it will be said of me that Satan stole my heart with pornography. My siblings will teach my nieces and nephews how fucked up their uncle is, My parents won't talk to me, and I will lose all credibility with the entire circle of Mormons I grew up with.

These people... Just... fuck!... Porn must just be the latest in a number of scapegoats they use to discredit anyone who doesn't see the world in exactly the same crazed way they do. My friend sure had much to say about "the world" and how stupid they are, and how they're just trying to justify their sins with science, and that's all modern science is. I've seen this mentality in my therapist, my doctor, my teachers, my friends, etc., and yet I now know just enough of the outside world to realize what a bunch of pompous ignoramuses Mormons really are.

My therapist said, "secular psychology waved goodbye to God over 200 years ago" which he lamented, because "once you say goodbye to God, you lose the ability to be certain of anything beyond what can be known by your 5 senses." He said that. That's exactly why humans developed the philosophy of science, because there's no way –– no way –– to falsify a claim that only exists in the invisible spiritual realm. There's no way of knowing whether you just pulled it out of your ass, or whether your ancestors pulled it out of their ass, or if there's any real dire reason to base your life on it, or to cut contact off with people you love just because they don't agree with it.

How can a group of people like this be granted the autonomy to run an accredited university? Who the hell did the tscc hoodwink into giving Rick's college university status? Or is it because the Idaho state legislature is all Mormon too. You know, I think I understand the frustration of the LGBTs and their allies. This is what an Orwellian theocracy looks like when it hijacks a democratic process. I'm scared shitless to think that it was ever possible to live under a man such as Brigham Young as both Prophet and Governor out in the middle of nowhere. What else do you do when confronted by this totalistic social pressure? You either surrender or leave, and the church makes sure that leaving is the most painful thing you will ever do. I had hoped tscc was only 'cult-like' not a cult.

Mormons say all the time "I know" but how do they know that they know? Well, they don't. And no one's pulling the wool over my eyes with mystery and mysticism anymore, because I know how this works by personal experience. "Because tholy ghost" is not an answer, because it's just another position of faith created to justify another position of faith. Circular reason infinitum. I haven't lost the Spirit because I saw a picture of a naked girl. The twinge of guilt Mormons feel is the regret they feel of letting people down and/or the fear of being rejected by their loved ones, not the Spirit withdrawing because it is grieved.

I didn't get any sense of porn destroying my relationship with my friend. How does a picture end a relationship? It was his idea of porn and how that idea compels him to behave to be at peace with himself that destroyed our relationship. Once he had that detail, his image of me shifted positions in his mind and fell right into that place––that stereotype––that the church had taught him his whole life to save for 'people like me'. Never mind anything else I have to say. Any unpleasant cognitive dissonance he had sympathizing with me is now gone. All he had to do was rip me out of his empathy all at once. The church trains and grooms people to do this their whole lives.

It's the effect couched in the rhetoric that "this is the only true and living church on the face of the earth," "isn't the restoration great," and "how blessed are you to have been born in this time when the gospel and the priesthood are on the earth!"

Get them psyched up, get them just far enough into swallowing the hook, and then you start saying things like "wouldn't it be awful if someone took this from you?" "The world" is demonized and discredited. "Satan goes about to deceive" for "he seeks to have all men to be miserable like unto himself". He's already got "the world" under his power, and you have to work diligently to keep this influence out of your soul, too. When the child learns this line, it's in the form of learning how to "respect and honor the priesthood," or "magnify the priesthood."

Nothing has ever happened that the Brethren couldn't have taken better advantage of, in this sense, then the natural suspicion of what internet pornography would do to our society and what it does to a brain. The Brethren have spoken, and then the faithful are moved to crop up justification for the divine truths. Confirm the bias! because we are right––we have a prophet, and if we begin to doubt that, we have the holy ghost, and if we begin to doubt that, we have a prophet, ad infinitum.

I'm convinced through my readings of the forbidden, like the fields psychology and sexology, that church has no idea what it is doing with regards to the sexuality of their rising generation. This is ever more painfully apparent with the last LGBT press conference. They are hurting their youth, and they can't see it, because their whole foundation is built on certain premises that they will not allow to be criticized.

Maybe that's why the Brethren go after the gays the way they do. To have an open discourse about homosexuality is to pop the cork on all their sexual stupidity. They've taken too hard of a stance on this just admit they are wrong now.

And so the abuse continues.

I don't know why I should have to feel guilty for orgasming alone, outside of marriage, but someone else doesn't have to because "once your married everything is fair game" (my friend's words). I know that jerking off alone is no where near as fulfilling as being intimate with another person. This behavior doesn't turn me into a crazed hulk of sexual appetite bound to fornicate. Maybe that's the effect it has on a TBM sexually-repressed mind when they discover porn suddenly, and all the pavlovian shame and shit kicks in. All the sexual addictive-compulsive downward spiral I was in at one point still –– STILL –– did not drive me to overcome my social anxiety enough to have sex with a partner. Because no matter how much I hated myself at that point, someone walking in the room was a boner-killer. If Porn really did craze me the way the church said it would, wouldn't I have held down the first person to walk in the room and fuck their brains out? I am still a virgin at 26, and that must count for something.

Christ!, this church has mind-fucked me so thoroughly. I think I've finally recovered, but that incident with my friend tried to bring it all back. I realize this environment is poisonous. The gospel of self-forgiveness that my bishops sent me to ARP to learn is not the gospel of works and conditional love practiced by the mainstream church membership. They are fanatics, blind leading the blind, and when reminded of their sandy foundation or when a key credibility-disqualifier (like sex) is touched upon, they redouble their effort or throw anyone under the bus that they have to or carve anyone out of their heart to bring back their false security.

anyway. I'm done. I can't try to live in peace with these people anymore. None of them will have it. The longer I put my coming out, the more they will pretend to take it personally that my paradigm didn't perfectly align with theirs and I didn't immediately tell them.

What an insecure, unhappy lot.

What a cult!

Act in haste repent at leisure. Make a plan, I am sure everyone here will help with input. Let's find a SMART way to get you the most possible in the situation. It's ok, BYUI is just going to be a bump in the road. One you ARE going to get past. Don't saw off the limb you are sitting on till you figure out the next branch. It is going to be ok. You have my mail if you need me :)

The longer you remain in toxic environs, the longer it will take to fix the damage it does to your mind, IMO...

I figured out the church was false while I was at BYU. This was 1973. I had no RFM. I didn't know anything or anyone that wasn't 100% Mormon. I only had a year to go so I just did what it took to get through. But if you can get the hell out of there I would do it.

Those Mormon colored glasses have been ripped right off your head and you can see the ugliness. It's always been there. It's always there. The inanity, the insanity, the shallowness, their prized childlike ways that are actually just immaturity. It will eat at you. None of us have THAT much tolerance.

The sooner you find your own kind the better.

It may take you awhile to figure out how to handle this situation and to take a tentative step in a direction that will be better for you, but I'm fairly optimistic that you can do it.

Your description of "a degree in mormon confirmation bias" made me laugh. That is so accurate. If you are seeing things that clearly, surely you will be able take one or two small steps in the right direction -- right for you. As you begin to feel more secure and confident, you can take more steps away from the BYUI culture.

I would guesstimate I've read half a million posts on RfM since 1997. Your Epic Rant was the best-written, most resonant post I have ever read. It begs to be a Master's thesis. Thank you for writing it.

I so agree. Cold-Dodger's posts convey to me the feelings of Mormon oppression like no other.
A talented writer for sure! I'm certain he'll go far once he gets through this current struggle.

Torturednevermo,

You are a sweet, kind person. I get email notifications of the replies from stuff I post, and I immediately know which are yours, even through the handle doesn't show.

Thanks. :)

And thanks back at you for saying so. Even if I can’t solve a person’s issue, I can at least show compassion, and try to uplift and encourage. I don't make it up or be phony, I pick out something positive I see and say so. I see so much selfishness in our world; it’s how I try to ‘be the change I want to see in the world’. But, like anyone, I have a grumpy side too. I even show it here some times. Thanks again Cold-Dodger, for your kind remark. You made my heart smile. ☺

+1,000!

Cold-Dodger, The only advice I can give is trust yourself! From your post you sound very creative and intelligent. You will go far! Whatever choice you make will be the best because you made it. I also agree with others to trust NO ONE up there. I wish you the very best in life,you deserve it!

Maybe leave this out of your future master's thesis.

"Christ!, this church has mind-fucked me so thoroughly."

But I enjoyed the sentiment.

You are trying to fit a square sexual peg into an organic, pliable, shape shifting warm hole which is humanity.

It hurts and only if you are into pain is it going to bring you pleasant feelings. You don't write like you enjoy this pain.

I never did. I like an array of interesting pegs - not just Celestially cold, white, and obsessed with dead people ones.

I think the 'best' mormons learn quickly to make repentance 'a joyful experience'.

In other words, they are sado-masochistic. You have to become that to survive in this culture in any functional form.

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In other words, they are sado-masochistic.

They just call it two things. They combine the following two concepts to create their feeling Happiness from their Plan of Happiness.

Endure to the end. (pain)

Man is that he might have joy. (pleasure)

Which creates naturally, a philosophy of suffering for future reward which they then place into degrees of "glory" in a plan designed to ensure only the people most interested in glory right now and not after death who naturally rise in this scheme. And they would be the men climbing the Mormon ladder by hook or crook.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2015 03:38PM by Elder Berry.

Hey dude. You’re doing a good service to your head by posting here. Let it all just flow out, rfm will mop it up.

The thing people here can maybe comment on that would be valuable information for basing your decision would be this. Do they really retract your degree if you apostatize later? Also, is a degree from these Mormon universities recognized out in the world? In other words, is the degree useful?

If it is, it might be worth your while to tough it out for three more semesters. You’d be surprised what a human is capable of if you have a purpose for it.

If the degree is useless, though, then cutting and running might be the action to take.

Maybe others can weigh in on these important points?

Chin up! You’re on the right path from what I can see (out of the morg).

> Do they really retract
> your degree if you apostatize later? >

NO, NO, NO - BYU will NOT retract your degree if you leave the Church after graduation. This is an urban legend that refuses to die here. I've been a reader/poster on this site since the late 90s and this keeps surfacing as a topic of concern. There are more than enough real issues to deal with regarding the Church, but this is *NOT* one of them. Once you graduate, that's it - you are an alumnus/alumnae forever and the school itself doesn't care about your Church membership status once you are no longer a student.

the problem comes from losing your endorsement while you are a student. Once you graduate you are good to GO.

There's a person on YouTube whose handle is Newcarabu.

He says Provo asked for it back, not that they can legally do that, but probably just to make a discrediting gesture.

Newcarabu's first videos were revealing what happens in the temple and got half a million views.

The problem with these kinds of stories is that they are ALL hearsay. Where is the proof? If someone had an actual letter from BYU threatening to revoke a degree, it would be big enough news that media outlets would have a whopper of a story to make BYU and the Church look bad. Again...we should all stop perpetuating this myth because that's exactly what it is...

Newcarabu was probably joking as he does with calling MORmONS kangaroo.

You are far too smart to be in Rexburg. I'd like to see you at Cal, or UCLA, or Colorado (my alma mater,) or Arizona State, or even one of those fancy Eastern schools whose name on your diploma would forever open doors for you. Even Utah will do for an undergraduate degree. But you will have bigger and better things ahead of you.

For the love of all that is unholy, get out of Rexburg. Go to a school that will open your mind and make you smile every day. You are a very talented writer and you're only going to get better at it. People say bloom where you are planted, but you need to transplant yourself with all due speed. You have a very bright future ahead of you. Seize it with gusto!

Susan gave you some wise advice about making a plan; most of your credits will transfer (or sometimes you "challenge" courses if you've had them before).

The U is a good school, and you can work through your isolationist tendencies with a really solid underground of ex-Mormon support via the Post-mo community and others.

And that doesn't have to be your finally destination, either. BTW, our own illustrious Jesus Smith--whom Will Bagley described as "Mormonism's once-brightest physicist" (I concur) got his start in Rexburg.

If you get down here, I'll set up a lunch when he's in town and you can exchange war stories.

My sympathies, BTW. A few years ago I picked up a Chem E professor who'd just been hired to teach up there. Guy wanted to discuss some stuff and proposed fluoridation (old-time RFMer's here know my views on that subject and know enough not to bring it up; blood atonement is strictly a rhetorical device for me, but it often does feel that way to those who get under my tires).

I had to listen to claims "fluoride was a neurotoxin" all the way to the airport, and seriously, a cabdriver with a modest BA in English was giving chemistry lessons...

And I also mentioned a fare from a few years ago who's now a really well-known pundit for the Washington Post who taught at the U of U when I was there and told me point blank, "BYU is not a university."

I think that applies in spades to BYU-Idaho.

Cold-Dodger, others have noted that transferring to a better school might be a good choice you could make. I agree, if that is something that you want to look into. I would just like to add something else to think of too. When I was close to the end of my degree, it had shifted from being fun and exciting, to being a lot of work and very stressful. I couldn’t wait to be finished. I was on a three year condensed program, with no break except for 2 weeks twice a year. It was like running a gauntlet by the end.

I was middle aged, had a young family at home, and maintained very high grades … a 4.0 up until those last few semesters. Finishing was nearly all I could do by those last few months. It was very stressful in and of itself. Just keep that in mind. Your stress might be coming from several directions at this time. Getting to the end of a degree can be a very anxious time. I just wanted it to be over! However, I would still consider getting to a better school as others have suggested. It could be just the change you need. I just thought I'd throw this idea of 'school stress' out there as more food for thought (as if your mind needs anymore food right now though … LOL).

Susan I/S 's advice is spot on. Don't "saw off the branch you are sitting on till you figure out the next branch."

You need to do some 'due diligence' on what will transfer to other universities you are considering. There will be differences. Also, if you are three semesters shy of graduating that means you have a lot of credit hours. You will want to bring this up in case it might raise issues with a particular school's policies. At the least any school you transfer into will have a minimum number of credit hour you have to earn in residence before granting a degree. Likewise there will real dollar cost issues to consider. You want to know what these are so you can plan accordingly. The BYU schools are a price performer with the heavy church tuition subsidy.

Now, on the value of your degree. It is valuable. By and large what matters to most employers for most jobs is that you finished college and earned a degree -- exception is specific skill types of jobs like engineering.

With that said, as a professor who sometime sits on committees to review graduate school applicants, U-of-U would be considered to be better academically. So if you can transfer to U-of-U it would be a clear upgrade, especially if you plan on going to graduate school. Another thing to keep in mind is that is OK to work for a semester or two or three as you transition. Might even smooth the transition out.

Do some homework before you leap. Probably could get the general lay of the land with about a day of effort online over the weekend on different school websites etc.

And there are a lot of people here on rfm that can help with both keeping you sane and with practical advice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2015 09:40PM by mannaz.

I would be most afraid of this friend you've been talking to, he could rat you out "for your own good", and three semesters shy of graduating would be bad bad timing.

My opinion would be to finish this last bit, you're very close. But I never went to college, and I don't have to live your life.

I can REALLY sympathize with living in the enemy camp though. That was the first half of my life. :( Keep your head down until you have a plan. I can feel how you want to bust free, but you gotta have a plan in place. Don't throw too much away when you finally Hulk out of that repressive backwater. The rest of the world will still be waiting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2015 10:49PM by Susan I/S.

Totally agree with posting re caution about friend. This guy can rat you out and make your life even harder.

Repeat. THIS GUY IS DANDEROUS! Share no more of your thoughts re TSCC with him.

Start easing him out of your life. "Love to (pick any activity he suggests)with you bro but have a big test coming up. Have to study". Don't just dump him suddenly just always be heading somewhere else when he drops by or you have a migraine and have to crash. Occasionally spend ten minutes with him and then have to be somewhere else. Enjoy being inventive with your excuses but not suspicious.

If he does rat you out, say he came on to you and you rebuffed his advances. Sounds mean I know but no more than ratting you out. I suppose I am tentative about this one but for me if a friend betrayed me like this, I would consider doing it at least. TSCC teaches honesty and fair dealing for everyone other than the leaders.

Sounds like the U in SLC would be a good choice. Do not delay investigating how to get there ASAP. The longer you stay where you are, the more likely your frustration will cause you to do or say something that that will get you kicked out. It sounds like you are close to that point now. If that happens, TSCC wins (punishes an apostate and uses him as an example to others students of what can happen when they express doubts) and you lose big time. Can't transfer credit.

You may need an excuse for why you are transferring. Find a program at the U that isn't at your current school. Say you are transferring for that program. After you are gone, it won't matter what you take. Take what you want.

Go to the minimum number of church activities that you have to to keep you off the old boys' radar while you plan your escape.

When it bugs you doing churchy things, take some relish in the fact they don't know you are planning your escape. You are the fifth column in their midst. Think about how in the future you will be able to help someone else escape.

Remember my motto, "Living well is the best revenge."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2015 10:18AM by annieg.

I come down on the side of a transfer and here's why. First (which may seem a bit on the frivolous side, but I'm serious here): You are in your 20s, but that doesn't last forever. These are some of the best years of your life and you shouldn't have to just tolerate and "get through" them, you should be having fun and making memories that will last you a lifetime and that you can reflect on when you're an old bat like me. Why not have at least ONE good college year? Even if it means working a year before you go back, you should have one college year that doesn't suck.

Second, and most important, if you can fill out a resume and NOT have it say YBU (pick a campus) is where you graduated, you're better off. In all the years reading RfM, I've read many more posts about the disadvantages of having a YBU diploma than advantages, especially if you plan to someday work east of the Morridor. Here on the eastern seaboard, it's right up there Bob Jones University and Oral Roberts University.

If you're so unhappy...time for a change. Transfer!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2015 11:53PM by DebbiePA.

I agree about transferring if possible-even if it costs more.

With BYU on my resume, I was offered a job by co-owners of a business, at my interview. They began talking about which WARD I would be in... (Had I known they were Mormon, I would never had applied there.)

Be careful. Don't trust anyone there. Good luck!!!

Admit nothing. Trust no one. And go do donuts in a parking lot.

But I know that was a joke :)

Any male who says they never looked at porn or masturbated is a liar. Now it only becomes a problem if you waste endless amounts of time doing both. There's a real world out there and it's time to stop whacking the monkey in imagination land and actually develop some social skills and develop a real relationship for once. Like eating too many doughnuts or drinking too much too much porn and wankery becomes a detriment. All things in moderation they say.

Cold Dodger
Time to put your big boy pants on. You can do it

Sounds like you are in a good mental state ...at least it is as good as it gets when going through the depressing shiat that is being thrown at you from the LDS organization and it's elite mind-controlled fear mongers. Good job on the rant...top shelf stuff there.

They won't ask for their stupid degree back. I resigned (the formal paperwork and interview process) over a year ago now and BYU has not withheld any requests for transcripts that I recently requested for a MS I was working on.

The only problem you will find if you do end up graduating from that place is that you will be terribly embarrassed of your time there and any association with it's KKK inspired leadership. The only thing that mo's have correct about the world is that most people think little of mormonism but when they are forced to they associate them with "hatred of human rights for sinners" They are the but of jokes and looked at as self-righteous fanatics.

Stay undercover and deny all sins they try to pin on you. You are living in a village of idiots and they are looking for a witch to burn every day....just don't participate except to keep up impressions. You have this forum to express yourself and find compassion. BTW when you do have sex...do it often and do what ever the hell you want to...all bets are off when in the act of fawking (pro-creation lol).

Loved the comment that you are 'living in a village of idiots'. Well said, and good to remember each morning. Pats on the back for using that brain of yours to think outside of the box. Also, pats on the back for your courage and your fortitude.

I vote for you to transfer to another school for your last year as I think it would look great on your resume, but do whatever is best for your finance, etc. situation. The U of U is my alma matar and I think it's a pretty great school. Has usually had a great English Dept.

Wishing you the best. Keep in touch.

How the hell did you even find this amid half a year's worth of posts? Are you stocking me?

A "rant" is an emotionally charged dumping of frustration for everyone to read, and the frustration is by definition unique to that context. You're reading a post of mine where I had never felt more lonely in my life, not even on my mission. So pardon me if it sounds a little unfair to Mormons who have no tolerance towards a new unbeliever who has otherwise been Mormon his whole life and no conceivable way of seeing a person as separate from a habit.

These two facts — I no longer believe and I have an unsavory habit I've been working on and stressing over for years — combine in Mormons' minds generally so as to make anything I do or say invalid. Can I talk about the mental illnesses I've endured for years? No, because Mormons conclude for me that it was the immorality and loss of the spirit that did that to me. Can I talk about how shocking it was to figure out some of the things about Mormon history I found? No, because Mormons conclude for me that I'm just trying to justify sin or some shit. I can't talk about any of the things that make me feel lonely without someone taking a tone of condescension with me at least. At most, I fear losing control of my narrative altogether and having people initiate a road for me they think is "for my own good" where I get kicked out of school and lose everything all before I've even made sense of which way was up and down again.

I have to manufacture my own sympathy because otherwise the only signals I'm getting FROM MY OWN PEOPLE, MY OWN TRIBE, are to fuck off and never come back.