http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Attempt_to_sell_copyright

[[[David Whitmer, years after he left the Church, claimed that Joseph said that the revelation did not come from God...

David Whitmer claimed that Joseph Smith received a revelation and prophesied that Oliver Cowdery and Hiram Page should go to Canada where they would find a man willing to buy the copyright to the Book of Mormon. When they failed to sell the copyright, Whitmer states that Joseph admitted that the revelation had not come from God.

David Whitmer was not a participant in the trip to Canada...

The primary evidence supporting the negative aspects of the Canadian Mission story comes from David Whitmer, who was not a participant in the event, and who had left the church many years before. With the discovery of the Hiram Page letter of 1848 showing that the actual participants involved in the trip felt that Joseph Smith delivered an accurate revelation of what would transpire on the Mission, and in fact even found the event uplifting rather than negative, it is evident that no individual contemporary to the event felt that this represented a false prophecy by Joseph Smith. What we do see is excellent evidence in fulfillment of the teachings of Deuteronomy 12 and 18 that Joseph Smith was perceived as a true prophet of God by those involved in the Mission to Canada in early 1830.
The criticism that Joseph later claimed that the revelation had not come from God is in all likelihood the product of a false memory by David Whitmer.]]]

So now JS...just when are your "revelations" from God and when are they from your "wishful thinking" huh bro???

Or so it seems to me...

Well it's really D&C 9:7-9 on how translations and revelations by the Prophet are done:

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

So see, God doesn't really "Tell" or "Show" anything. He wants you to imagine it, work it out in your mind. If you have a stupor, then it's wrong. If you still remember the thing you were dwelling on...Well!!!! That's God and it's Sacred!.

I can't believe I read and accepted this as soooooo Holy???

D&C 9:7-9 directly contradicts ol' Joe's First Vision premise, found in James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

D&C "you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me."

James "let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not"

Can't be both ways.


ETA Quote marks



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2015 12:22PM by moose.

The full "revelation" is included on josephsmithpapers. I think Joe obviously considered it a false prophecy. It would have been added to the D&C if not.

Do you have a citation from the JSP for this revelation? I would like to go right to the original source rather than peoples recolections. Thanks.

I think you might be referring to was David Whitmer admitting that he never saw the BoM plates with his "physical" eyes but only with his "spiritual" eyes.
http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm

This term "spiritual" eyes was used many times by J.S., especially with the 47 visitations that happened and all of those visitations in Kirtland when he was setting up the priesthood powers, keys and organization.

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/revelation-circa-early-1830

...and if you want to read a load of crap on the topic:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705337036/Newly-found-revelation-of-Joseph-Smith.html?pg=all

The article concludes with: "In Joseph's revelations you find a God who uses his omniscience to preserve individual agency. It's a remarkable theological feature."

It basically says that God puts conditions on what he reveals, always leaving himself an "out". Isn't god amazing?!

Oy vey!!! Why, oh why wasn't this ever taught to me? It's stuff like this that just keeps my anger growing. It's not the members who keep this stuff hidden. I could of dealt with a lot of the "Occultic / mystic / Masonic" doctrine; but they kept it hidden. Now, the histories I'm reading and learning about, Wow!!!

There is no way that the corporation could of grown and survived unless they started lying and cover-ups from the very beginning. Oh wait! They did!

I wonder if spiritual eyes are blue or brown or sparkle specially.

Silly rhgc.....spiritual eyes are blue. It's in keeping with the "white and delightsome" theme.

He also admitted at one time that he couldn't tell good from evil revelations. IF he was a prophet, that alone rendered him a useless one.

The quoted FAIR article at the beginning of this post is yet another example of how FAIR routinely lies and/or deceives in order to support their claim. They mention the 1848 Hiram Page letter and then go on to claim that it proves that Whitmer was wrong and that Page firmly believed that the revelation was of God.

So, why doesn't FAIR include the 'money quote' from the Page letter? You know, the statement from Page that proved Whitmer was wrong? Notice how they don't actually link to a copy of the letter and they don't even directly quote from the letter at all. There is a reason for this.

If you read the original Hiram Page letter, most people would see Hiram's account as agreeing with and corroborating Whitmer's account. Page's account doesn't specifically mention the statement about some revelations being from man or satan, but it says that those who received the revelation were not benefitted by it, and it agrees closely with Whitmer's account on other details. It definitely does not appear to disagree with or conflict with Whitmer's account.

For the record, mentioning obscure sources and then claiming that the sources support or prove their claim, but without actually directly quoting or providing a link to the source is a standard practice of FAIR. When the original source is reviewed, it rarely supports their claim in the way they say it does, if at all.

For those who'd like to read the 1848 Hiram Page letter, it's online and can be easily found with a google search. I'd post a link to it, but I'm not sure if that's allowed.

Coincidentally, reading Whitmer's 'An Address To All Belivers In Christ' was the the experience that really opened my eyes to the truth regarding TSCC, and the realization that it was not what it claimed to be.

For members who still believe but have doubts and questions, this document may be a really good thing to introduce because it allows them to consider thinking about the church and the 'restoration' in a very different way without totally shattering their entire belief system all at once.

Besides, an apostle even quoted Whitmer's document in the Ensign (in 1993 if I remember correctly). For someone who's not yet ready for the CES letter, Whitmer's document could be a good alternative starting point in introducing them to the truth.