Years ago I was preparing a simple talk for Mothers' Day. As I searched for a quote by Lucy Mack Smith, I read about how Joseph Smith Sr. had dreams that were similar to Lehi's vision of the Tree of Life that are described in the Book of Mormon. The account should have strengthened my testimony, but for some reason it struck me as being odd.

I had many items that I had "placed on the shelf" of faith, but this was just one too many. That shelf simply became overloaded and in an instant I stopped knowing that the LDS version of events was not true.

I re-read the Book of Mormon, and I tried to examine my life to see if something was amiss that would chase away the spirit. I attended the temple more. I prayed like a maniac, begging for the return of that knowledge, but it was gone. In fact, the harder I tried, the more I could see the lie for what it was.

That was years ago, and I have still not extricated myself from the madness. What a mess. "Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?" (See the Matrix.)

Actually, I think about the moment I stopped knowing, and I would not ever take it back. Somehow I think that it is better that I should know good from evil. At least, I think I heard that somewhere.

Nice :)

Actually, though, you never knew.
You believed.

Despite what mormons try to convince others (and themselves), those two things are not the same.

You realized that you didn't know -- you didn't stop knowing. You stopped believing!

Don't fret taking the red pill, though. There's more madness in the blue version, you just train yourself to pretend there isn't...

I had someone tell me once that if I had ever really known that the church was true I could not now say that it was not true. In other words, I may have been baptized, but I was never truly converted. I suppose this provides some justification for people believing in things in spite of significant evidence against them.

I am never quite sure what to say when anyone says they know something like, "I know that Joseph Smith saw God." This must be a different use of the the word "know". Maybe I am just getting caught up in definitions.

It is strabge to have people claim to know something they never witnessed, and that there is no evidence of.

It Gets Better Wrote:
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> I am never quite sure what to say when anyone says
> they know something like, "I know that Joseph
> Smith saw God." This must be a different use of
> the the word "know". Maybe I am just getting
> caught up in definitions.

No, you're not (just getting caught up in definitions).

The church indoctrinates its members to say "I know" when they don't know. It indicates certainty where there is none. It attempts to make their unsupportable belief "unassailable" -- it's not belief, I KNOW IT! Even though they don't know it, and it is belief (irrational, unsupportable belief at that).

Don't know what to say? I do.

Them: "I know Joseph Smith saw god."
Me: "No, you don't. You believe that, you don't know that."
Them: "Oh, but I DO know it! The Holy Spirit confirmed it was true!"
Me: "You don't know the 'holy spirit' exists, either. Or that it has ever confirmed anything. And even if it did, and even if the 'holy spirit' knew that was true, YOU still wouldn't know it was true. Words have meanings. You believe, you don't know. Claiming otherwise is dishonest."

You, of course, can reply as you wish. That's just what I do.

Great post, It Gets Better.

I liked ificouldhietokolob's response, too.

As your name indicates, it does get better if you don't take the cult seriously.

It seems like our subconscious is tallying things up even when we don't realize it and then the proverbial straw on the camel's back item pops up and your subconscious grabs the smoking gun and rushes it right to your frontal cortex asap.

My "moment that I stopped knowing/believing" was much the same as yours. Except that I got really really happy and excited because my subconscious was really sick of being a Mormon.

I think that the cognitive dissonance just became too much to ignore.

When you're my age, the blue pill has a totally different meaning!

Welcome to reality! You're now free to live a quality life full of integrity. You are free to follow your passions, love other people (no matter how different they are from you), and make thoughtful decisions about your life. Isn't that better than worrying about being perfect and judging yourself, and others, unmercifully? Very best wishes! Viva the Boner.

BYU Boner Wrote:
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> When you're my age, the blue pill has a totally
> different meaning!

You know, pal, the commercials say if it lasts more than 4 hours, go see a doctor. They don't say, "Celebrate!" if it does :)

He's on speed dial. Nowadays, I celebrate anytime it happens.

4 hours!?! I think your wife is going to need the doctor! :)

For a smile that lasts more than 4 hours? ;-)

If your church meeting lasts more than 4 hours you will need a doctor.

In the latter days, even the very erect will be deceived.

Ah, that magic moment. I think a scene from the Warner Brothers cartoon "Rabbit Hood" sums it nicely. When the Sheriff of Nottingham looks at the house he's building on the king's property and it sinks in that he'd been had. If you're not familiar, I highly recommend looking it up.

I wish I could say something to make it better. They stole something from you that can't be replaced. But it can be worked around, which I hope you'll come here for. The compassion, wisdom and humor to be found here is a wonder to behold. It almost makes up for TSCC's spiritual sodomy.

The moment I stopped "knowing"......I was reading a story for my Greek Mythology class at the lord's university in Provo. It started out describing muses that visited the main character and spoke with him, gave him direction, guidance, etc.

At that moment, I looked up from the book and thought to myself...."Here is a story about immortal beings visiting a mortal. Why should I reject this one and accept the Joseph Smith story?" I knew they were all "mythology."

I had been reading the big blue book by the Tanners at that time, and felt it was honest in what it said, never got a "bad" feeling about it. It finally made "sense" out of mormonism.

When I read the mythology story, something just snapped and any mormon belief went out the window.

Looking back, I used to wonder if I would have accepted the mythology of whichever time I had been born. This was one of the concerns that I place on the shelf.

Good point. The Romans believed in their Gods and flourished for a long time. In fact, it was after the introduction of Christianity that it went into decline (I don't believe that is why it declined). The Japanese reached a very high level of civilization and believed in things very much in opposition to Christianity. They believed it and flourished. According to LDS teachings they should have been cursed for their beliefs.

On my mission I encountered Hindu and Buddhist believers. They believed in their religions just as much as I believed in mine. They even had faith promoting stories. That ended my supposed monopoly on the truth. How could they believe in their false religions just as strongly as I believed in my true religion? Maybe my religion was not any closer to the truth than theirs. I brushed the line of thought aside for a long time, but the logic of if it eventually prevailed upon me.

Yeah, of all the things that Smith Jr. and his co-writers plagiarized, it was weird to find out the they had even plagiarized his own father.

When I was very young, about 10 or so (1963/65) I remember a certain sacrament meeting very clear.

The reason I remember it is because I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Not much later, I couldn't believe that people were doing exactly as they'd been told to do in the previous meeting. I've never forgotten that.

What happened was that the bishop got up and read a letter from SLC. He'd been to a bishops conference and they'd been told to read that letter to all of the members. The letter said something to the effect of members should stop saying that they 'believe' when giving testimony. They should stand up proudly and boldly say they "KNOW" the church is true.

I was shocked because ten year old me knew that he was telling everyone that they should lie. And do you know what happened? They obeyed that order. The next F&T meeting people who previously said they believed suddenly KNEW. The only thing I knew for sure was that most of the ward had turned into instant liars. My parents included.

I never believed a word that was spoken in a F&T from that time on. I'm in my 60's now, and still remember that. I've been to hundreds and hundreds of meetings, but that one stands out as the most shocking one to me.

Wow, Janis. Really? So this is how that started, a letter from SLC, and met with immediate compliance.I often wondered how that started. I couldn't do it. The best I could do was say that, "I believe this church to be true as far as I've investigated.Then when the cog-dis was building I couldn't do much of that either. I was sincere in my belief as well as being sincere in my unbelief of TSCC. Once Pandora's box was open there was no closing it again.

I remember that moment...
My brother was going through a bout of severe depression and I came across a letter he had written seeking help. In the letter he mentioned no longer believing in God. Me being the naive TBM went searching on the internet for ways to convince him that the church was true and that if only he would regain his faith then he could be happy again. I was wrong on so many levels. His depression was from mental illness and could not be fixed by faith. I think it was on MormonThink that I came across the fact that JS used the hat and stones to translate the BOM. Having been born and raised in the church, and never having heard that before, it blew me away and I knew then and there it was a complete hoax.

In my youth I can recall my parents taking us on trips to Nauvoo and MO and other historical church sites. I remember wondering why it was ok to practically worship JS even though he'd gone to jail so many times. He sounded like a troublemaker to me and no different than the current day FLDS prophets.

Either way, I felt total liberation and relief upon discovery of the falsehood of the church. My self esteem increased as I no longer felt so completely imperfect. I learned how to say no without guilt, especially for church callings or assignments. I continue to attend and have not told my parents or family (except my brother and husband who was never mo).