I just left the church last week. It was painful to tell my wife who is the RS President and obviously a TBM. She is very understanding, though, which I'm really grateful for. We went to tell our bishop, who is a good friend of mine as well. He was totally shocked as I was a counselor in his bishopric and then was serving as a counselor in the YM's. What got me is that he said I was the one who needed an open mind, when he was the one who wasn't interested in any of the things I've read and learned. He told me as sure as he knew the pencil on his desk was real, that the church was true. And I said "I used to think I knew that too." Didn't the church always teach truth is truth? Apparently only when it fits the LDS viewpoint, not truth that shows it's all a fraud. So far I'm mostly mad at myself for not figuring it out sooner. There has always been stuff in the church, BoM and BoA that set off my b.s. meter, but I wasn't willing to entertain those thoughts. Knowledge is power! I haven't felt this free in many years. Still, recovery is going to take a while. I'm glad I've found this forum where I can vent some.

<IF U talk w Bp again... U can detail the disconnect between MoClaims (chiefly Honesty) and Facts / RL.


Did you serve a mission? Remember the Open House images of Joe sitting at a table looking at the plates? Not Quite how it happened, ja ja.

-No face in hat

-No U&T

-No seer-stone


Nothing, Nada, Zip.

(who) needs an open mind? Ask him & his wife + your wife to spend a (warm) afternoon & evening at a Nudist Park; chances are there's one nearby...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 08:59PM by GNPE.

Welcome. What were we thinking for 20+ years? An open mind allows for the possibility of other points of view and weighs the evidence. It is a great feeling to think for oneself now.

Yeah, the church is as true as that pencil. They're both real things. Big deal.
Meetings with bishops are rarely smooth sailing unless you agree and believe their every word.

Welcome to recovery!

who doesn't want to be on the defensive.

I don't have to prove my religion is true and you can't prove to me it's false because I won't consider anything I don't want to.

Typical Mormon childish thinking

Oh well, that's why you're getting out.

I have come to understand that those who are often called "anti" anything are considered to be closed minded, yet they are the ones who have studied both sides before coming to a choice about what they are going to believe.

Congratulations freeatlast, and welcome to the real world. Before I left, my bishop told me that I needed to "get off the fence", so I did, heh heh.

The Mormon idea of an open mind is "Doubt your doubts."

Tell your bishop that an open mind is one that is searching for truth through fact and evidence. It is a mind that is unafraid of what it finds and has no preconceived notions.

The exploration of truth has nothing to do with finding ways to make all your information fit into the Mormon box.

Welcome Titanic survivor! It takes courage to do what you have done, even after witness of the one true pencil. (That sounds naughty.) Congratulations, take a deep breath...!

Hopefully your wife will feel secure and understand you had to follow the facts. Good luck with the fallout from friends/family. Expect every type of reaction. Best wishes to you and your family.

I am sure most have heard the phrase but it is always worth repeating,

"Keep your mind open, but not so open your brain falls out"

. . . Tim Minchin?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENNQ4ZUw4d0

is up to discussing the new essays on lds.org :) Welcome to reality, it is really rather nice! Let me know if there is anything you need ExMoLight@gmail.com

Congrats on finding the truth and welcome to RFM!

Welcome to the board! Don't you have to wonder why people like the bishop are so deeply invested in you agreeing with them?

Freeatlast,

I sympathize with your situation. It's kind of like mine. I have a RS President wife. She understands the issues, but just has a TBM way of looking at them. I stopped going 2 years ago and have few people to talk about this stuff except here occasionally.

I occasionally read posts over at newordermormon(org). You might give them a look. You didn't mention what your beliefs are at this point, but if you still want to pursue Christianity you might look up Shawn Mcraneys more recent videos on Youtube, episodes 428 and ongoing. He's maturing in his approach and a good guy (in Salt lake).

Best wishes to you.

Congrats. I am envious - but 2015 may be my year of freedom too. My tbm wife is ready to leave but timing is important to us. I think there are more of us than you realize. I am still active- very active if you were to ask my "ward family's" opinion. I have served in a few bishoprics and stake level callings and I know the drill. Leaders don't have many options - in fact- I think some of the anger and resentment you feel from church leaders might be envy. The exact kind of envy I feel reading your post. Ha. Doesn't make the frustration any less, but maybe it can help you feel some empathy for them. All the best in your transition.

...who is obviously a Who fan. :-)

Since you're still active, can you tell us if you know of any other ward or stake members who are "closet non-believers" or "soon-to-be-leavers" like yourself? For those of us who have been out of the church for years, it would be nice to get a feel for the level of doubt, questioning, or near-apostasy there is among active members.

BTW, I think I just created a silly joke: When you find out that the church is a fraud, you change from a believer to a be-leaver (Hey, I told you it was silly.)

Ha! My kind of humor!

Hi Randyj,

Ha. Love the joke. I know of several stake level leaders that are truly close to exiting. Timing. High council, aux level, etc. last year two very close friendS resigned - one an active bishop in the Midwest and the other EQ president in mountain west. I also know more than a few watching j dehlins proceedings very closely.

I think the action against dehlin will have a noticeable impact on local units membership.

I would also add I was recently in stake training meeting and a ga said of ACTIVE members only 25 percent are now full tithe payers. 1 in 4. I think this is a leading indicator...

We regularly see posts on this BB from people who write that a lot of active members are questioning the church, thinking about quitting, have quit, etc. It's nice to get a feel for what is actually happening from an active member who holds a leadership position and is privy to the facts.

In my personal life, I don't really see anything happening. My TBM relatives on facebook, what few there are, are still TBM, and my inactive Mormon relatives don't care enough about the church to bother resigning, even though I have dozens of them who haven't gone to church for 20, 30, or 40 years except for weddings and funerals. Most of them, including the TBMs have no clue as to what's happening with John Dehlin, the essays, etc., and they have no interest in it.

About 7-8 years ago, a young man posted here who lives in my city. We got to talking, and it turned out that he's the son of a long-time former bishop and SP counselor in the local stake. He also told us that another former HC---the brother of a former SP who was currently a mission president---had also left. So we got together, along with Eric Kettunen (the founder of this website) and his lovely wife and went out to dinner and talked crazy Mormon sh*t for hours.

The young man's father didn't go with us to dinner, but I spoke with him, and he and his wife had left the church. It's also cool that he's a very prominent, highly-regarded local business owner. It was kinda funny that just a few years earlier, I was a bishop's counselor, and that guy was a SP counselor who used to visit our ward.

About your stat that 25% of active members are full tithers---I was clerk in three different wards, and that's about how it ran when I was involved in it. There was a thread here just a coupla weeks ago on that subject. It was usually a handful of high-income earners who contributed the lion's share of tithing every week.

Well, i think there is an LDS contingent that simply love being LDS. Truly love it. The culture, the life program, etc. These people will probably never leave completely. Sounds like your extended family fall into this category. However, as I look around the people I see 'packing their bags' appeared to be in this category. Don't underestimate the amount of closeted pain and fear buried underneath those tbm Facebook posts. It's like the temple ceremony. Many people will tell me how much they love it....until I gently confess the ceremony is a little uncomfortable for me. Then....wow....in hushed tones I get all sorts of genuine opinions. It's about feeling safe in what feels like a very unsafe environment. At least that's my take.

The tithing percentages have to be an aggregate across all active members. My ward is much higher. Probably 75 percent ish. But I live in a very affluent and highly active pocket. This is probably what props the number up overall. But I think this might show just how little fervor exists in some areas. They are closing down temple sessions nearly weekly even in my area. Begging people to go but People generally like to silently protest. It's safer. It's much easier to post your devotion on Facebook. :)

EF

"Well, i think there is an LDS contingent that simply love being LDS. Truly love it. The culture, the life program, etc. These people will probably never leave completely. Sounds like your extended family fall into this category."

Yep, I'd say you're right. For example, one of my nieces, around age 40, told my wife a coupla years ago that she and her hubby no longer believe in the Joseph Smith story. But they're still active. She's into baking and nutrition and home-schooling her kids, so Mormon culture works for her.

Another niece and her hubby were inactive for quite awhile, but they're now active again. Based on her FB posts, which mention youth and scout activities and having missionaries over for meals etc., I'd say they're cultural Mormons too.

That niece told me years ago that she and hubby went out to celebrate their anniversary one night, and they were hung over the next morning, which was a Sunday. Some stake rep called them early Sunday morning and asked them to come to church early. They were afraid that some church member had seen them out drinking, and that they were going to be chastened. Far from it---her hubby was called as BP. I chortled over the image of a hung-over Mormon guy being called as BP the morning after. But hey, they somehow make it work for them.

"However, as I look around the people I see 'packing their bags' appeared to be in this category."

Yeah, I'd like to believe that a lot of Mormons who are still active simply haven't surfed the 'net and learned the facts yet, or haven't had an apostate friend or relative clue them in yet. But we see signs that that is changing. That's why comments from people like you are valuable.

"Don't underestimate the amount of closeted pain and fear buried underneath those tbm Facebook posts. It's like the temple ceremony. Many people will tell me how much they love it....until I gently confess the ceremony is a little uncomfortable for me. Then....wow....in hushed tones I get all sorts of genuine opinions."

I know what you mean. Another of my TBM nieces, a BYU grad, got married in the temple around 1989. It was the last time I ever went to the temple. She confided in me a few years later that the experience was "like a cult" to her. And you may have heard that former GA Marlin Jensen's daughter expressed dismay over her temple wedding experience too.

Ironically, the temple thing didn't bother me when I was a TBM, because I was a true believer and I just accepted it as part of the whole package.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2015 10:41PM by randyj.

So that's what that song is called! I always thought it was from one of Pete's solo albums. Without a real drummer, "It's Hard" to tell the difference.

I see what you did there. :)

Easy to make that mistake....anyway, anyhow, anywhere.

Cheers

I've become wary when people throw around the term "open-minded" since they often mean "just accept or believe whatever I do" rather than then real meaning of being "open" to possibilities.

Good to see exmormon Who fans. .....just saying

There's a cool song that The Who recorded in 1966 and released much later on a compilation album. It was essentially an anti-smoking PSA for the BBC, called "Little Billy." So this fat kid isn't cool because he doesn't smoke, but years later his friends all get cancer. I think that's how it goes.

It's a wonderful cultural artifact with some really fun drumming by Keith Moon. He was so unpredictable, but when he entered the turn at just the right speed he was absolutely awe-inspiring. Juggling beats and notes like the star of a rock and roll circus. Too bad he drank so much.

I have "Meaty Beaty Big and Bouncy" on LP and "Tommy" on surround sound disc (the surround processing is weak and adds nothing to the recording).

..."We're Not Gonna Take It" (from "Tommy") on a karaoke CD track. All seven minutes of it.

Do you dare to sing it? I hope you do. It's one hell of a finale.

Many congratulations on your brave achievement.

Interesting on the info you presented. GA reporting that 1 out of 4 are tithe payers - wonderful news. And, love it that there are those who are paying attention to John Dehlin's journey.

May you have the best in the days and years ahead of you charting your own course.

Open to what? Accepting that lies are true? Fuck off.

The pencil comment made me think about the incident at the Kirtland Temple during the banking scandal when the witnesses were asked about really seeing the plates. Paraphrasing: You saw it with your own eyes like you see this pencil on the table? No, Better! With my Spiritual eyes!

I think half the leadership left after that comment. Your Bishop is using spiritual eyes to prop up the indefensible.

Glad you found your way out. Its a wild ride but worth it. Strap in.

Having an open mind means being willing to listen to and judge
both sides of an issue. Exmos, by having been Mormons, have
seriously listened to and judged the Church's side of the
story. The fact that the Bishop does not want to consider your
side of the story shows which of you has the closed mind.