http://www.whatsoeverisgood.com/what-joseph-smiths-experience-really-means-to-you/

From this blog:

"And in the endless hours of apologetic debate between the faithful and the skeptics, a crucial idea is neglected—the first vision doesn’t really matter that much."

"When trying to gain or strengthen a testimony, the correct method is not to put Joseph on trial. We are the ones on trial—to see if we will trust that God will answer, if we’ll properly seek light and truth, and if we’ll follow whatever guidance is given to us as a result."

"The implications of the first vision are phenomenal. And perhaps the most important of those implications is that heaven is open to each and every one of us when we seek in faith."

Wow...I have no words....

Just when you think they couldn't be more ignorant. If the first vision doesn't matter, what does that say for everything that ensues?

So it doesnt matter but the implications of it are phenomenal? This person is very confused.

But they are right that the first vision is pretty pointless and insignificant in reality.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 06:21PM by nonsequiter.

nonsequiter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So it doesnt matter but the implications of it are
> phenomenal? This person is very confused.


Exactly. Ugh.

Incredible!

"it doesn’t change the fact that we can ask God for answers."

I thought this "church" was about asking geriatric men in Armani suits for answers! Am I just confused?

Funny, but that describes what virtually ever other Christian church "without the authority" does!

Didnt Hinckley say something like everything hinges on the first vision?

If it happened, the church is true, if it didnt, it is false.

I may be mistaken, but I think that is close to the quote.

Here is my comments I left. They are awaiting moderation

Hinckley would disagree with you about its importance. But what does he know?

In 1998, church president Gordon B. Hinckley declared,

Our entire case as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the validity of this glorious First Vision. It was the parting of the curtain to open this, the dispensation of the fullness of times. Nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son, then all else of which he spoke is true. This is the hinge on which turns the gate that leads to the path of salvation and eternal life

Also

In 1961, Hinckley had gone further: “Either Joseph Smith talked with the Father and the Son or he did not. If he did not, we are engaged in a blasphemy

Also

Likewise, in a January 2007 interview conducted for the PBS documentary The Mormons, Hinckley said of the First Vision, “it’s either true or false. If it’s false, we’re engaged in a great fraud. If it’s true, it’s the most important thing in the world …. That’s our claim. That’s where we stand, and that’s where we fall, if we fall. But we don’t. We just stand secure in that faith.”

These quotes are taken from Wikipedia – First Vision.

They all have footnotes showing where the quotes came from.

You might take a minute and look at all the differing versions of the first vision. They are quite interesting. While you are at it you can look at LDS.org article on all the differing accounts
https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts

Essentially....

Sorta...

;^)




Edit: Thoughts - Before I offend someone else, I'd better make clear that my "Essentially" and "Sorta" reflect back to my own subject line, "See? I told ya you got it right!" rather than to what Riverman posted. Maybe, on second thought, I ought to just log off for the day!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 06:53PM by moose.

Silly Riverman - He was obviously speaking as a man, not a prophet.

Oh come one! Hinckley's been dead long enough that we can just say he was "speaking as a man."

They didnt mention WHICH first vision they were talking about either. Was it the one with god and angels and jesus, the one with just god? the one with just jesus? The one the mormons like. Or the one where joseph Smith just felt really nice about himself?

Personally, I dont feel like any of them matter that much.

More and more reality doesn't matter in Mormonism.

What matters, as this blog underscores, is that members BELIEVE
the Church is true. It's not about truth, it's about BELIEF.

So the only method they endorse is the method of ignoring the
facts and working to convince yourself that you believe.

If science used this method to find "truth" we'd still be back
in the dark ages.

It's interesting that the method to find "truth" that is one
that just about every Mormon would hold as untrustworthy in
considering any other proposition.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 06:28PM by baura.

All kinds of stuff isn't important anymore. Denying Blacks the priesthood? Ain't important. Multiple versions of the First Vision? Ain't important. No traces of Nephites and Lamanites? Just ain't important. Why? Because the church is true, goddammit.

And yes, I have been drinking a tiny bit tonight, which may explain some of my comments.

Thankfully Brigham got that thing about men living on the sun right otherwise nothing would be important to our testimonies anymore.
cludgie, your'e still making sense to me and I am sober for a change.

Gosh. You see? I guess it all works out in the end. The church IS true. Goddammit.

Mormonism loudly proclaims the truth. Until it's proven they don't. Then it's no longer important. Lather, rinse, repeat. I've seen it for over half a century.

Arrogance and stupidity make such a lovely combination.

Sub "arrogance" for "ignorance" as needed, or do both.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 09:44PM by beyondashadow.

I find it really odd that some people are arguing that the first vision actually matters. I have a very different reasoning than the blogger, but I don't think Joseph Smith's lies matter either. I am baffled that anybody who isn't taken by the myth of Mormonism would attribute any sort of weight or importance to them.

I would venture to say that not even the church being false matters to this person. When someone has been programmed into a cult, they think like the quote in the OP. It obviously doesn't make any sense, but that seems to be how members of cults think. Logic be damned. Nothing is more important than remaining in the cocoon. Keep up the mantras, keep out the niggling thoughts.

So it's your fault, heh heh. It really doesn't matter to them if they're living a lie. My father hurt so many people in his pursuit of Mormon exaltation that he would look like a monster without the sheen of his imaginary status. What he doesn't seem to get is that he looks like a monster even with his endowment passport, and perhaps even more so because of it. I am intimate with the labors of the Pharisees.

From Samantha Shelley, blog author

In the comments answering a question about people that God tells he did not visit Joseph Smith.

"– I don’t believe the Lord has ever told anyone Joseph wasn’t a prophet or that he didn’t have the First Vision. Because he was and he did."

Mormons know Mormonism is True for them and True for you, even if you know differently.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 08:26PM by gentlestrength.

It wasn't important for the first 18 or so years. The missionaries never taught about the JS having a vision. That may have been because the story had never been heard of at the time though. So I guess if it wasn't important then it shouldn't be important now. Except for the fact Hinckley said it was, which can be dismissed because, well just because.

Well you guys covered it pretty well, but one other thing in the blog stuck out at me: "It signaled the opening of a dispensation and a reconnection between God and man after centuries of silence."

Centuries of silence. From God. Centuries. Silence. From GOD!!

Makes Him look like kind of a dick, don'tcha think?

basically, that's what my bishop told me. he said he didn't really care if JS saw god, JC or millions of angel, or one angel". I started crying like a baby, left, went home, cried some more and then realized it was the end.

THanks bishop!

I have absolutely reached my limit of listening to these, not just ignoramuses, but ignoramuses by choice say that they know sh*t about god.

These TBMs are the very same people who will not even read information that they know is available about their stupid church, yet they claim to know. We who have been taken over by Stan, just cannot understand their FEELINGS. I want to ask them how more information could possibly lead them away from the truth. Do they think they will suddenly lose the power to analyze if something is credible or not? On second thought, maybe they know they are so stupid they will believe ANYTHING so they choose to believe JS and successors because they believed that first. I mean "knew" that first.

I cannot think of anything more arrogant than to talk about god as if you've had a face to face meeting and know what "he" does. This is what makes the religious dangerous to the rest of society. They think they know, and if they know, then there is no debate or question on the subject of what is right. There is no room for someone with a different opinion because they know. This is how the religious feel justified in making laws that require everyone to live by their beliefs, because after all, they know the truth.

In other words:
It doesn't matter what's in the sandwich, just eat it. Don't pick at it, don't smell it. Don't be concerned about the brown color.

...that he's aware that the lack of evidence for the "first vision," plus Joseph's inconsistent accounts, make it highly unlikely that any such event occurred. So, like most typical church lessons, the blogger turns the issue into a lesson about how members are "on trial" before God to see if they will continue to believe in spite of the lack of evidence.

That's the basic essence of most Mormon thought: the church is true, the gospel is perfect, so if you don't believe in it, you're the problem, not the church.

"The-Make-It-Up-As-We-Go-Along-One-True-Church"


Enough already.

Another lie to cover for the previous lie; on and on ..........