Assuming God exists, how does a person know (or have a sense of) anything about God beyond the fact that God exists?

And, once one thinks God exists, how does that person's approach to understanding life, the universe differ from an atheist's approach?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2015 12:11AM by thingsithink.

thingsithink Wrote:
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> Assuming God exists, how does a person know (or
> have a sense of) anything about God beyond the
> fact that God exists?

I think the fact is faith based all the way into every aspect including mere existence.

> And, once one thinks God exists, how does that
> person's approach to understanding life, the
> universe differ from an atheist's approach?

Not much. Given the fact there are no tangible facts to pin attributes to one is going to personalize God to their tastes and use God as a conscience or something or they are going the Pantheism route and making all existence the attributes of God.

One more time around for Tall Man, if interested.

The difference is in acting on the beliefs and putting them into practice. It's not enough to have esoteric knowledge.

It's not necessary to understand God in order to do this. You can "fake it until you make it", or in other words, plant the mustard seed and nurture it. It's part of the "do be do be do" creative process. You think about God (do) and then you let the ideas of God bubble up through your subconscious (be). This cycle interleaves your rational and feeling aspects, gradually spiraling upward.

The notions of God have not kept up with scientific knowledge. This leaves religion in a philosophical backwater so that many people are discouraged from spiritual practice in the first place. They remain stuck in a material reality and don't pursue the super-material aspects of life because they see them as unreal. That's a 1-dimensional way of being. The 2-dimensional thinking and feeling way provides a path to deeper meaning.

Thanks.

thingsithink Wrote:
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> Assuming God exists, how does a person know (or
> have a sense of) anything about God beyond the
> fact that God exists?
>
> And, once one thinks God exists, how does that
> person's approach to understanding life, the
> universe differ from an atheist's approach?


Good questions and very similar to the ones I asked myself when I started seriously considering the existence of God about a decade after leaving Mormonism.

I'm hesitant to respond here, as it's akin to opening the beer concession at a Mother's Against Drunk Driving convention. This forum is not conducive to a simple conversation on these things.

But I'll gladly cite the stories that inspired me and resonate with my journey.

1. Assuming God exists, how does a person know (or have a sense of) anything about God beyond the fact that God exists?

C.S. Lewis's story was very relevant to me. He slowly transformed from an atheist to a theist to a Christian. On the C.S. Lewis Institute site they describe his progression as follows:

"Once while riding on a bus in Oxford, Lewis had the sense that he was "holding something at bay, or shutting something out" (p. 131). He could either open the door or let it stay shut, but to open the door "meant the incalculable." He finally submitted himself to God, the most "dejected and reluctant convert" in all England. This belief in God happened in 1929, but it was not until 1931 that he surrendered himself to Christ."

Personal experiences clearly instruct many believers about their understanding of God. This was anathema to me due to the falsification of experiences I learned in Mormonism, but C.S. Lewis and other Christian thinkers encourage a mix of intellect with mysticism that grants primacy to the intellect. This is absent from Mormonism. A mix of scriptures with apologetics, and time with a believing community will go far to offer a greater understanding of God. Lewis's "Surprised by Joy" offers his insights and experiences in his journey of belief.

At the risk of stating the obvious, personal experiences are ultimately most relevant to those who experience them. They will ring hollow with skeptics and cannot be offered as evidence for anything to anybody else. They're powerful, important, and utterly meaningless to most people other than yourself.


2. once one thinks God exists, how does that person's approach to understanding life, the universe differ from an atheist's approach?

I suppose that could be different for everybody. I was never a strong atheist -- really more of an agnostic, so I may be the wrong person to ask. Believing in the Deity causes humility, gratitude, and an expanded sense of purpose in my life. It certainly increases my incredulity with the belief that all of this is a grand accident.

Thank you.

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
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> It
> certainly increases my incredulity with the belief
> that all of this is a grand accident.

I've never understood why this is a problem? Why the need for control at the supernatural level?

It obviously appealed to me but not from a God has it covered sense but that there was something higher to appeal to than crappy parents, clueless leaders, and my self-centered self.

But God never seemed much more than a Greek ideal of either anthro-pantheistic or Plato's Forms gods.

When I considered that existence could be an accident on a scale so beyond my own comprehensions I was put in my place in The Universe. It isn't the best place in comparison to eternal bliss, angelic hosts, and such but it beats hell fires and I can't help but marvel at my own mere existence. Accidentally here even with parents who planned me (Number 6 of the power in their priesthood and posterity) I still glory in my own existence and the existences of even the people I dislike in this old world.

If we can't see beauty in being just being, what can we expect from Heaven or its most important resident?

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It
> > certainly increases my incredulity with the
> belief
> > that all of this is a grand accident.
>
> I've never understood why this is a problem? Why
> the need for control at the supernatural level?
>
> It obviously appealed to me but not from a God has
> it covered sense but that there was something
> higher to appeal to than crappy parents, clueless
> leaders, and my self-centered self.
>
> But God never seemed much more than a Greek ideal
> of either anthro-pantheistic or Plato's Forms
> gods.

I understand your position, and it's certainly one that many agree with. But I find in my limited understanding of the human condition many of us have a real affinity with causation. When we hear a loud sound, we turn toward it and wonder what caused it. When we see anything out of the ordinary, we tend to be curious about its source. I still remember in one of my early philosophy classes being confronted with the age old, "Why is there something rather than nothing?" question.

I think that many of us find a simple agreement with old, much-abused arguments like Paley's watch maker. We see a world of caused things and recognize that our frame of reference may well require either an infinite regression of causation -- which is no answer at all, or something that actually exists outside the causation loop.

In a certain sense, we see this dissatisfaction with an accidental creation among some of the leading atheists and physicists of our time. Krauss and Hawking have both within the past several years penned volumes that approach this, but they do so by stepping into positions that are better seen as philosophy than science. Krauss argues for a universe that exists "from nothing" and then goes on to strangely move the goalpost by claiming "There's a whole lot more to nothing than we ever imagined."

Same with Hawking. He posits that the universe requires no deity and sprang into existence from nothing because the law of gravity existed, perhaps eternally, as the creative force to deliver it.

If you do a bit of rearranging of words and terms, these are faith statements that distill to fair a comparison with "I believe a deity outside the confines of time is the creative force behind our existence."

Some here immediately greet these claims with a requirement that the deity be defined by some sect or religion. They claim that absent a specific identity, the causation argument fails. But that's a specious position. Basic causation arguments are philosophical approaches to an existence of a deity that are typically the same across many religions. Apologetics will branch out from these arguments to inform the veracity of one religion over another. It's possible that there is an eternal deity and no religion has a correct understanding of it.

As with C.S. Lewis, the journey for many pauses when they accept that there is a deity. Lewis delved into Christian apologetics and found a reasonable, cogent faith.

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
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> I understand your position, and it's certainly
> one that many agree with. But I find in my limited
> understanding of the human condition many of us
> have a real affinity with causation. When we hear
> a loud sound, we turn toward it and wonder what
> caused it. When we see anything out of the
> ordinary, we tend to be curious about its source.

Well, I like to think it is more than a position. Actually, I think this is the crux of my beliefs. I want them to be as close to natural beliefs as possible. I don't believe we can really have something called "natural beliefs" because we are so disconnected in our higher brain activities from anything approaching something natural. If it there it is a beastly naturality in my opinion.

I mean our lives are all about moderating feelings, learning better behaviors for our environs and the like.

But I would prefer to be as closely connected to an existential reality in my beliefs than the castles in the clouds we can create with our brains. I want to feel in my soul (which I obviously participate in creating with my positions) something fundamental with life.

And I really am a curious person. I am. I guess I see more futility in running myself to the edge of the boundary conditions for the genesis of my life. Like some really really really big questions, these boundaries of human cognition like where we literally came from, if the can't be addressed by scientific inquiry then they are grounded in pure speculation.

We humans have a hard time figuring ourselves out with Scientific inquiry so trying to collectively attempt an objectivity about existence like we seem to like to do in a search for causation's curiosity seems futile and frustrating. The comfort of a warm and personal God in the face of the vast coldness of attempting to understand a Universe objectively is irresistible.

And I think in the light of Scientific inquiry into origins does beg these questions.

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Assuming God exists, how does a person know (or
> have a sense of) anything about God beyond the
> fact that God exists?

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And, once one thinks God exists, how does that
> person's approach to understanding life, the
> universe differ from an atheist's approach?

If in answering them we are only sating a curiosity then their answers are a let down to me personally.

It seems simple to ask the question does God exist? But what I find much more interesting is why is the human asking? Just because they are curious?

Knowing thyself seems requisite in even asking if God exists. Because if you don't know yourself well enough to know why you are asking it, you are simplifying the question.

Topping for TMSH.

Well, at least God is listening to me, right?

Hope this answers your basic question although I might be answering the question you should have asked.

I believe you need to experience God/God's power in your life and through your experiences with God/spirit guides, etc. you will over time come to have a fuller understanding of life and God. I had a number of experiences as a TBM and inaccurately felt they were tied to LDS when none were at all in hind site. As a spiritist I have had literally hundreds of experiences (obviously many minor but significant enough to keep my belief) almost on demand sometimes daily if I have something/anything I want to get an answer to or something to keep/strengthen my faith. Sometimes I am amazed at how minor of things I can get a response to. However, I believe it is because God wants us to know he has got our back (He really loves us individually). And He will specifically respond if we are open/desire His knowledge and help.

Prayer or meditation works ------ I do at least 30-60 min. meditations per day (some as short as a couple minutes on a chair lift, walking, fishing, in a hot tub, etc.) and include short prayers/requests to God during that time. Also, you have to ask for logical things (questions, desires, etc.) to make it 'real' for God to answer.

My Suggestion (because this works for me but no experience with how it works for others). Get in a meditative state which you can do by closing your eyes, sitting up in a chair or laying down (do not cross any hands or feet) and initially breathing deeply through your nose and exhaling through your mouth. After you get in a relaxed mode and your breathing slows down address God and ask a question. It can be minor like what unique vehicle/etc. will I see on the way to XXX or tomorrow, or what is one or 2 things I will see on the news at XX. Obviously you may have more important questions and ask for a sign that You/God exist that you will see within 24 hours ----- you may want to describe the 'sign' you want to see during that time ----- it should be unusual/not normally seen but not something you have never seen before. I used a sign once of a fish surfacing and planned to not go near a lake where I would probably see that ---- didn't go by a lake but did see the sign within 24 hours. Obviously, give time (2-3 minutes ---- I seem to get mine quicker) for a response if you expect something immediately. Then continue in a meditative state and be open to what comes to your mind (its mainly mental images and feelings for me but I have also heard sounds and voices). See what you get. If you don't get anything in 2-3 attempts --- I apologize in advance as it worked for me but I have not tried it with others.

Interesting. I'll give it a try.

Sorry, my life away from RfM is demanding most of my time right now. I don't want to give you a rushed answer, so I'll resurrect the topic when I get the time to answer thoughtfully.

Thanks

No problem. I appreciate your thoughts.

One may assume that bigfoot exists. Having done so, one should expect to hear all kinds of earnest nonsense concerning the creature. Some bigfoot believers disagree with other bigfoot believers and claim to have sole access to the truth about the hirsute hominid.

It is amusing to me that no one has ever seen a bigfoot and mistaken it for a bear.

Actually as a survival mechanism Big Feet have taken to aping bear ways....