I believe my brother is gay. I'm bisexual myself.

Why do I believe he is gay? Here are the facts as I know them.

He had a gay lover in High School who (lover) met a man while he was in college and considered himself married to that man last I heard.

My brother on the other hand dated women in High School and college who chased him and he was more friends with them than romantically inclined.

He was into interior decorating, Barbra Streisand, and ballroom dancing in High School. I know the first two of these are stereotypical but they are facts.

He is very effeminate in his mannerism and when he was in college we had a great relationship. Then a woman at BYU chased him and he married her. My mother has expressed several times to many of us how "eternally grateful" she is for her daughter-in-law (who she appeared to dislike when they were first married.) And my relationship with him deteriorated after he married.

He wasn't like he is now. Now he is like his wife. He his grumpy, sloppy, judgmental and superficially nice. She is only in her 50s but looks like a lot older, wears no makeup, and her hair just sits atop her head like it has never had much attention. She has been like this since getting married. They have tons of kids and two of them I post emails here from emails my brother forwards from their missions.

He and his family are the most TBM people ever. I remember years ago he would talk to me endlessly about having a part in "The Messiah" or something like that play Christmas thing at the General Conference Convention Center. He is such a drag. All he talks about when I talked to him was church and family. I don't talk to him anymore because he is rabidly homophobic. He thinks any homosexual in Mormonism should just get married heterosexually or not married at all.

So, now there are these shows about two of my formerly favorite siblings - my UAB sister and my gay married brother. When I was young both this brother and this sister were the nicest siblings to me. Add to that my pedigree and being from Utah. I feel so Mormon that I feel I am an ethnic refugee. But surely there has to be many Mormons out there with family with Gay married Mormon men? I doubt there are lots of Mormons with polygamist siblings but I think there might be a lot of gay ones playing straight?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 04:42PM by Elder Berry.

I have a female cousin and a male cousin (opposite sides of the family) who both married in the temple and have since divorced. My male cousin has a child. My female cousin is in a long-term relationship now.

My ex has a few siblings who are gay. One is female, long-time married. I wouldn't call them happy either. The other one is dead. Never married.

You know I love you cl2 and I hoped you would reply. You are confirming my bias.

I'm sad to say that I think this is a lot more prevalent than I ever thought. They led me to believe I was 1 in a million. MAYBE someday if we talk about it enough, these marriages will stop happening. Ha ha ha.

As I just stated in another thread, I wasn't a "beard." I could have married many nonmormons, but I didn't. Then I had a really good opportunity while my ex was "making up his mind." He saw me slipping away. I just saw this guy I could have married not long ago. I hadn't seen him in over 20 years. It broke my heart. He would have been PERFECT for me. I also finally had other Mormon guys wanting to date me while I was all wrapped up in this mess. One even came looking for me after I got engaged who I had known in the ward before. THEN I had yet another nonmo try to talk me out of marrying him who I had dated during this time. He knew something was wrong, but didn't know what. I had all these opportunities and I CHOSE to marry my ex. I do love him and maybe, just maybe I helped him and, if I did, so be it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 05:10PM by cl2.

cl2 Wrote:
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> I'm sad to say that I think this is a lot more
> prevalent than I ever thought. They led me to
> believe I was 1 in a million. MAYBE someday if we
> talk about it enough, these marriages will stop
> happening. Ha ha ha.

I can hope. It sounds terrible. You literally can never express your whole self with your mate.

> As I just stated in another thread, I wasn't a
> "beard." I could have married many nonmormons, but
> I didn't.

I read it and I felt for you. I think my sister-in-law is one and she had to know it going into it.

> I
> had all these opportunities and I CHOSE to marry
> my ex. I do love him and maybe, just maybe I
> helped him and, if I did, so be it.

You did. Being bisexual experiencing multiple sexual orientations before reaching adulthood being raised in a homophobic cult is literally hell. I can only imagine what homosexuality would be like without some kind of help.

I have been in a relationship with another man for 4 years now. Neither of us like Barbara Streisand, interior decorating or ballroom dancing. I like musicals, but my partner likes 70s rock a lot more. We go to college football and basketball games together. I watch tennis, football and hockey, while he likes baseball and football.

Neither of us are "effeminate". Neither of us have ever done drag, not even for Halloween.

Perhaps you would not know that we were gay, except that we live together and go out together.

Let's just say he didn't act like any one else his age that I knew. He dressed fabulously. And it was the 70s. I mentioned the stereotypes because he had them and they were the things that stood out to me in knowing he was different.

I didn't know he was fooling around with his HS friend until I was grown. I just knew they spent a lot of time together especially in his immaculately decorated room.

What 16 year old kid gets excited to find a Chinese vase? He graduated in Asian Humanities. At least he didn't graduate in a stereotype but he did serve a mission in Asia.

That does not make him gay. I know lots of straight men that act as you describe. They are sick of small minded people thinking they are gay because of stereotypes/

I've said before, my ex can fix ANYTHING. We have some really old cars that I wish he'd get rid of, but he keeps fixing them for the kids (and himself). I finally bought me a new car 5 years ago because I was sick of having these cars. He doesn't like sports and he can't decorate for the life of him. He can't dress either. I used to dress him. Now his boyfriend does. I don't think he looks gay either and most people don't. The women in the ward/neighborhood love him, even more now that their husbands don't see him as a threat.

I was going to say that he always had lots of girl friends and not so many male friends. He now has a mix of both. His married female workers even go to movies and out to dinner with him and their husbands don't care.

But he is far from a stereotypical gay. All his gay friends are on different scales of "stereotypes." They are all unique and I find them all quite fascinating and fun to be with. I'd rather spend time with them than any straight people I know (except my kids and boyfriend). My kids even love hanging out with them. My son's friends like to go on vacation with my ex and none of his friends are gay. It actually is a very interesting life.

I mentioned them because they are the best evidence I have. He will NEVER claim to be gay. I've seen him flirt with men and he never flirts with women. That would be the only non-stereotypical sign I guess.

There are femmy, artistic straight men. I've met a few and believed they were gay myself.

There are masculine, butch gay men.

These stereotypes will not tell you someone's sexuality.

The only way to see if a man is gay is how he reacts to other men and to women. If he lights up around attractive men, he is gay. If he is chatty and friendly but not perked up by a beautiful woman, ever, then he is gay or asexual.

There are bisexual men, but they are not as common as people like to think. Most bisexual men are gay men coming out, but the real ones do exist.

axeldc Wrote:
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> There are femmy, artistic straight men. I've met
> a few and believed they were gay myself.

I've met quite a few. I think they are straight. I think it is obvious when they flirt.

My brother hid it well. I didn't see him flirt with men until after I was grown and then I knew he was gay because I had never seen him flirt before this time.

Sorry if the stereotyping upset you. My brother hit a bunch of them as a teenager and young adult. I liked him more back then.

your brother is probably gay, especially if he had a gay lover in high school.

Yeah, that is a give away. Straight men don't have gay flings very often.

My mother told me she caught my brother and his friend doing bad things.

I did bad things with one of my friends growing up. Maybe I'm gay?

If stereotypes like the ones listed defined gay, I would not be gay.

I have even had straight people argue that I could not be gay because I did not fit the gay stereotype

MJ Wrote:
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> If stereotypes like the ones listed defined gay, I
> would not be gay.

I would have never suspected him if he didn't have stereotypes. When we worked together and I saw him flirting with some coworkers I would have written it off as him being friendly. It seemed too friendly to me at the time, but I would have written it off as that. Too many things just made me think he was gay over time.

Like I said before he might not be. I wonder how many gay Mormon men are playing it straight for Mormonism?

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> MJ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If stereotypes like the ones listed defined gay,
> I
> > would not be gay.
>
> I would have never suspected him if he didn't have
> stereotypes.

That is your problem. Suspecting people on such stereotypes are quite often wrong.

But to go on believing that black people all like watermelon and fried Chicken.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 07:40PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
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> That is your problem. Suspecting people on such
> stereotypes are quite often wrong.

I guess it might be a problem for some. For me my brother's stereotypes are warm memories for me about how he used to be. My attributing them to what I suspect is a hidden and condemned by him sexual orientation probably offends some people. I'm sorry. This is the way I am about him.

I don't suspect other men for their stereotypes. I have defended a few friends sexual orientation they claim because many people like to assume. I am sometimes guilty of this myself. I try to fight the biases I harbor. I try.

I have nothing wrong with the memories only the use of them to identify the person as gay.

Growing up in the church, there was a boy 1 year younger than me in our ward. He was quite handsome, very outgoing, a lot of fun, and the girls all loved him. He had to fight 'em off with a stick. I used to tease him about being jealous of all the girls he had after him, while knowing all the time he was gay. It was plainly obvious.

He "came out" in a surprising way about 25 years ago (at about age 30) -- by suddenly letting everyone know that he was now a female, had undergone the first stages of sex-change surgery, and would be completing the process shortly. Oh, and she now had a new name.

I immediately let her know she had my full support and friendship. She cried on the phone when I said as much.
Meanwhile, the former TBM teens we grew up with were rapid-fire exchanging e-mails claiming, "Oh, I never noticed anything that might lead to this!" Yeah, sure. It was obvious.
Only one of them will now have anything to do with her.

Stereotypes do exist and they exist for a reason.

Those who don't fit them like to make sure everyone knows they don't fit them.

Most who do fit them also like to make sure everyone knows they don't fit them.

Then there are the drag queens who don't worry about what anybody thinks.

Back in the early days, seventy percent of the audience more or less at a Bette Midler concert were gay. Most of the rest were straight women. (And by the way, there will never be anything again like her concert at the Greek. That was legendary.)

So, there is nothing wrong with considering the love of Barbra Streisand, and the propensity for the decorative possible clues and you already know not to use those broadly across the board.

Your brother sounds gay to me. He could easily have a secret life or he could have shut himself down completely. Suppression is a horrible thing that will make you "grumpy, sloppy, judgmental and superficially nice" as you say.

I have known three straight men in my life that no one will believe are straight, but they are. They fit the gay stereotype--actually, practically could have invented it. The exception proves the rule.

My favorites are everyone who is very relaxed about it all. I know too many gay men who's greatest pride in life is to be able to pass for straight. I can think of better accomplishments.

Now to answer your question. All the closeted gay guys I watched marry their gal pals in the temple when i was at BYU at the dawn of time are all still married and TBM or pretending to be. And they did all like Streisand.:) That's all I know because I didn't really keep in touch that much. I don't know how they do it. That would make me "grumpy, sloppy, judgmental and superficially nice."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 07:24PM by blueorchid.

Nothing you said makes him gay.

I think he is. He may not be. I don't know.

What about the "he had a gay lover in high school" thing?

Last I heard (and I even remember his name, maybe I should google him?) my brother's friend had a series of lovers, came out gay and the last time I talked to my brother about him his friend had "shacked up" with a older man and considered himself just as married as my brother was.

My brother cut all ties with him after his friend took this step.

Another thing I remember and it will hit the stereotype hot button again was my brother and his friend stayed friends even after high school. This was the time when VCRs were coming out. They used to rent old black and white movies and watch them together. He did this with his friend even after he was an RM and attending BYU. I never was invited to watch them but I wondered what they were like so I watched a bunch when I became an adult just to see what they saw in them.

Okay, if they watched The Women directed by George Cukor then I'm sorry. I have no choice but to jump to conclusions. Smart sassy women slinging one liners and bon mots at the speed of light.

I have never had a straight man be able to sit through it. Not saying it couldn't happen, but . . .

lover was in parenthesis. The relationship may have been plationic and Elder Berry read into it more than it was. Picking on signals that werent there.

Even so... having a male lover as a male does NOT make you gay. Its not that simple guys.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 07:50PM by nonsequiter.

No one has drawn any conclusions and there is only speculation for the sake of speculating on an anonymous board.

The first reference to the lover is not in parenthesis.

And, I've been gay for more six than decades now, have seen more ins and outs to gay life than most, and am pretty close to almost having gotten it right I like to think, but thanks for telling me "its not that simple." :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 08:03PM by blueorchid.

Then how could you so easily forget something like that? A male who has a male lover is not always gay... then why would you use that as such definitive evidence?

Even the best need reminders sometimes. I mean if you apparently have so much experience to know its not that simple, why would you speak as if "Oh he may have had a male (lover)? Must be homosexual."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 08:11PM by nonsequiter.

I didn't use it as definitive evidence. What on earth are you reading?

I said his brother sounds gay. That does not mean he definitely is.


I get that you don't like any stereotype applied to gay men at all, but to deny that any commonalities exist with gay men is ridiculous.

Okay, you made the claim he is gay. (your opinion, your speculation, whatever) and explained a reason why you think so.

All Im saying is that your reasoning why is not exactly a good reason. Because its not that simple...

ie) to say "I think he is gay because he once (may have) had a male lover when he was younger" is ridiculous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 08:15PM by nonsequiter.

Sounds Gay is not a claim someone IS gay.

Saying that someone sounds gay to you yields an implication, but now this is just semantics.

Oh, gawd, not the effeminate interior decorator means gay bull shit again.

The only thing that defines someone as "gay" is an almost exclusive attraction to the same sex. Sorry, listening to Barbra Streisand does not make you gay.

MJ Wrote:
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> Sorry, listening to Barbra Streisand does not make
> you gay.

I listen to Barbara Streisand. I used to listen to his records with him sometimes.

MJ Wrote:
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> Oh, gawd, not the effeminate interior decorator
> means gay bull shit again.

He liked decorating. I don't know about it now. Last time I was at his house it didn't look as nice as his room did when I was growing up.

And it would not prove anything if he still does like decorating, other than he likes decorating.

I miss that about him. He had great taste when he was younger.

Maybe he is predominately straight (having a gay fling once) and he gave it up because he got sick of people thinking he was gay because of the stereotype.

You might be right and I might be totally misjudging him.

I will not find out. I can't stand all the Mormon talk coming from him these days and his trying to be the "older brother" doling out advice from a traditional Mormon priesthood sense when he never was much of a traditional older brother when I was young.

This is why my mother wanted my brother-in-law from my sister who married at 18 to be our surrogate manly man older brother.

Of all the ironies in the world when it comes to gay stereotypes...

Growing up, I really enjoyed musical theater and show tunes. I joined a sort of "glee club." I even took secretarial classes in high school (and was the only boy in the entire course).

My best friend worked at a masonry yard hauling bricks, and he worked on restoring old muscle cars as a hobby.

Turns out, he's gay, while I'm the straight one. Life is awesome.

over the years and I have forgotten. For one thing, it does sound like your brother is miserable.

I said he is probably gay because he had a lover in high school, but I don't know anything for sure.

I just realized that my ex told me of several guys he played around with in his youth who are actually straight.

Only your brother knows, but I think there are a lot of gay guys who are married in mormonism (let alone everywhere else). I'd bet it is more prevalent in mormonism than many places. I did work with a guy who is gay at the time I got married. He has to be in his 80s by now. He is still married, but I know he has cheated on his wife. He hates himself for it as he used to talk about how much he had hurt her. I suspected he was gay, but then he ran into my ex and they talked some years later.

So was/is he gay?

It is so hard for gay people in Mormonism. And determining it in a culture that attempts to hide it is so very hard.