The recent thread by Tal regarding the implosion of mormonhood had me thinking yet again this morning on the topic.

It's a popular one here. The church is going down. It will happen soon. It will happen later. It's happening right before our eyes.

Each time I come to the same conclusion. Wishful thinking. It's not imploding. It's not dying. It's alive and it's, well, well enough.

There is no question it is taking hits at a noteworthy clip right now. More than it probably ever has (as brother Marlin suggests) outside of the earliest days when even apostles were fleeing in open opposition.

The reason for my theory, and that's all it is? The core is just too strong. Yes it is losing stalwarts from it's core, I've witnessed, hell I was part of that core very recently. It however, will never lose enough of the core to take it down permanently.

It simply doesn't matter what happens. There are enough saints now that will interpret any "evidence", defection, apostasy, etc. as a test of their own faith, causing them to simply dig in deeper.

God bless them. That's their right in this great country.

The machine that is SLC headquarters is masterful at morphing on the run as necessary. There are still millions of faithfuls that believe if it comes from SLC, "the thinking has been done".

I don't blame tscc for any "lost opportunities" in my life. I was in control of my life at that time and it was what worked for me. Not going to spend whatever days I have left spewing how perfect my life could have been if not for the evil monster.

Nonsense. I'm a big boy. I'm navigating my life. I'm responsible for each phase of it.

Happy New Years all. Much appreciate the dialogue here at rfm

I agree with pretty much everything you said. You are right about the Mormon church changing, not imploding. I feel like you are right about personal responsibility too.

The church relies heavily on volunteerism at nearly every level. It will be hard for them to continue the way they have in the past if they cannot get enough people to continue to sacrifice their time and money wholeheartedly. That's what will slowly cause it to limp along. And I sincerely doubt the ossified leadership has it in them to make the changes necessary to keep the thing going in any kind of vibrant fashion to elicit that sacrifice.

That said, Rome was sacked in the late 470's and yet Roman Civilization limped along and continued in places, much the same way it always had, hundreds of years later. But you couldn't call any of those who continued in the old ways leaders, visionaries, vibrant, revolutionary, thoughtful, progressive or anything else. They were merely shoring up a way of life they had always lived. Nothing else.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2015 11:56AM by Devoted Exmo.

I agree. I've seen many people leave and even more that are semi-active but no longer accept callings. They're already overloading the remaining TBM's in the ward here with multiple callings. This will lead more stalwarts to break and allow themselves to question. Wards will be consolidated and more TBM's will wonder why the church seems to be moving backwards. It seems that nearly everyone knows someone that has left recently. It won't take that much to push thousands more over the edge.

The church may never disappear in Utah, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it disappear from other areas, especially outside the U.S. There were areas in my mission where missionaries had been for several decades, but there were less than 100 active members in cities of ~500k. It would only take a few key members leaving for the church to be finished in these areas.

Sure, they can morph... but it's all about the money. Are the remaining faithful willing to separate themselves from their money?

When I attend mormon meetings nowadays... (hmm.. how to say this nicely)... ahh, the elect have left. The church's sources for revenue and cash flow have changed.

The Mormon membership has become a lot more like the JW membership.

From my vantage point, of course.

Think OP is generally correct although two things are significant issues for TSCC. One the old boys know about and one they don't.

The one they know about is the Internet and lots has been said here about that. The old boys are trying to use it to their advantage but I think the risks outweigh the rewards on balance for TSCC.

The second part is correlation and central control. Gradually the old boys are squeezing out of wards all the good, fun events and activities that people remember fondly and that created a strong sense of community. Instead the old boys are substituting an endless list of demands that just keeps members too busy to think. That will work for some but I think more and more thinking individuals will look at the big picture and leave (hopefully taking along their families) which will make it easier for extended family members and friends to leave.

I agree that TSCC will continue on but I cannot see a bright future; smaller families, most converts bolt quickly and often are not the people TSCC would like to attract, more married women wanting careers, profits living longer lives so less rejuvenation at the top, and so on and so forth.

That is my prediction. Also some softening of position (e.g. Use of birth control, gay rights) but not enough to substantially change the nature of TSCC.

> I don't blame tscc for any "lost opportunities" in
> my life. I was in control of my life at that time
> and it was what worked for me. Not going to spend
> whatever days I have left spewing how perfect my
> life could have been if not for the evil monster.
>
> Nonsense. I'm a big boy. I'm navigating my life.
> I'm responsible for each phase of it.
>

As I stated in the other thread; I wish it was possible for people to exit such belief systems with no personal damage but we all have suffered in some way or another. I think it is important to understand what portion of that suffering we bring upon ourselves and take responsibility for it. In the present day form, it is a self made fantasy to blame all that has gone wrong in our lives on Mormonism. It is easier to blame someone, or something, for our miserable failures in life rather than look to ourselves and take responsibility for our own behaviors that have hurt others, and our choices that have brought about negative consequences upon ourselves.

Just saying....

I'm going to expose them the best way that I can so that people can know what they are still doing, in addition to being responsible for my own life.

staind Wrote:
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> I don't blame tscc for any "lost opportunities" in
> my life. I was in control of my life at that time
> and it was what worked for me. Not going to spend
> whatever days I have left spewing how perfect my
> life could have been if not for the evil monster.

I'd go dangerously insane (I'm probably already crazy) if I tried to use LDS Inc. to blame all of my problems on. That's what parents are for right? Just kidding. At some point for your own wellbeing you have to take full ownership of your life's mistakes as well as your triumphs no matter how small.

> Nonsense. I'm a big boy. I'm navigating my life.
> I'm responsible for each phase of it.

Granted you have the power to be in control I wholeheartedly agree.

Elder Berry Wrote:
> I'd go dangerously insane (I'm probably already
> crazy) if I tried to use LDS Inc. to blame all of
> my problems on. That's what parents are for right?
> Just kidding. At some point for your own wellbeing
> you have to take full ownership of your life's
> mistakes as well as your triumphs no matter how
> small.


A very important point for *recovery* from mormonism.

Like many others, I felt (and still feel, 30+ years later) a great deal of anger at being lied to and manipulated by the church.
But my "recovery" started when I was able to realize that, despite what the church did, what happened from now on was my own responsibility, and "blaming" the church wasn't going to make my life any better.

+100 Elder :)

The term I would use is crumbling. It may crumble fast, it may crumble slow, not sure.

The big difference now, that has materialized over the last 185 years is the internet. We need to compare the internet to the printing press invention. There was a massive distancing from catholic church to Protestantism.

Also in the past, those that became inactive tended to still believe but wanted to "sin" Now those that leave, leave because of what they read on the internet. These are formerly tbms, families, and former leaders. This is a new form of peer observance. Not fringe Mormons leaving but tbms. Members should notice this shift, and peer observance is extremely powerful.

The plural marriage essay, if read, should put a dent in the mind of a tbm. It is definitely a shelf item from the official church website. A decent person should be troubled not only because of JS's disturbing behavior, but even more troubling is that the cult officially covered it up for 185 years.

Slow or fast crumbling, I'm not sure but I get extreme satisfaction in the superior, "one and only true" cult and its membership being taken down a notch.

I'm a firm believer on momentum, you are either growing or you are failing. I believe they will be trying to save a sinking ship, rather than rolling down a mountain and filling the whole world.

Decent people have issues with a married grown prophet and a 14 year old girl, and a cult that officially covered it up for 185 years.

The cult stole my life with their cultism, lies, and coverups, now it is time for justice. When I see them struggling to stay afloat, I may feel some justice. I'm waiting and watching.

I think the expression "follow the money" applies here. They'll disappear when they run out of $$$, and they A LOT of it. LDS, Inc. will morph as necessary to keep the machine running just as you say.

I only disagree on a small point. I wouldn't call their morphing "masterful". Clumsy and ham-handed is more accurate IMO. They are bleeding a lot of tithe-payers right now. There are probably enough of them in the leadership that really swill the koolaid and really believe it's true, and that is hampering the necessary reaction to bleed the fewest members.

They will morph but not masterfully. They are just doing what typical people do in similar circumstances.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2015 01:49PM by mrtranquility.

mrtranquility Wrote:
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> They will morph but not masterfully. They are just
> doing what typical people do in similar
> circumstances.

So true. No divinity in LDS Inc. and it has been obvious for decades.

1) They made a lot of investments in land in Florida. That hasn't come back since 2008.

2) City Creek Mall cost them a lot, and malls are dying across the US.

3) They laid of the janitors and have members clean their buildings

4) As posted earlier, they are not announcing new temples and are not breaking ground on many announced since 2010.

5) They have stopped banking roll NOM, which is both a sign of defeat in their war on gays and a lack of money.

6) They are talking a lot about people leaving. Oct 2014 conference's theme was "please don't leave!"

I'm reading "America's Saints: The Rise of Mormon Power," Gottlieb and Wiley (1984). A very good popular history, up to the early 1980s.

They point out how TSCC adjusted and adapted, very practically, to various challenges and changes in the economic, social, and political events and trends, especially with the ascendancy of BY. Simply put, church leadership "did what needed to be done," sometimes rather well, and sometimes not so well.

For example, Nathan "Eldon" Tanner was an excellent hands-on organization man and did a lot to efficiently centralize a hodge-podge of church institutions and financial entities in the boom years of the 1960s. This period of financial growth was parlayed into increased missionary activity and building in the late 60s and 1970s. With the late Carter/early Regan recession, things turned down and (Tanner died) they sensibly retrenched.

Just business, folks. Just business.

I think it is changing towards a business rather than a religion, but the religion is changing. The ripple effect has more members leaving as friends, family, previous members start sharing the truth. It will hit hardest as the strongest ones leave. I was a "leader" to my tbm friends, now that I'm gone and very clearly stated why and expressed real happiness. I can see that they are starting to wonder. In fact my tbm dad has begun to lay off the religious example even acting like it kindof bugged him, and I had a long talk with my mom who seemed to understand that the beliefs that are taught would happen to me once I left the temple....aren't happening. Honest open communication will tear it down faster than passive aggressive actions against members. I realized that yesterday. If you talk to them without getting emotional and allowing them their beliefs while gently expressing yours and why...huge steps are taken forward.

Once the members really start waking up, they'll start leaving in droves. When that happens, the lds church still has huge plots of land to sell, put businesses on, anything, but I don't think it will be a religion anymore. It will be a huge scandal, tons of lawsuits, and my guess is that those left at the end will be the most brainwashed and probably be convinced by leaders that the world is ending. My prediction is 10 years if the essays have a profound effect and one more big negative change happens that causes a paradigm shift, 20 years if medium shifts and shake ups continue to happen, and at most 40-50 years but honestly I doubt that the future quorum of the twelve won't have someone break down and reveal everything. When that happens fire and brimstone against him by the other leaders, talk of major apostasy, then suddenly a huge number of members will wake up and see it, and resign. :) I'm known for pattern recognition so any bets? ;)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2015 04:05PM by peaceinfreedom.

It keeps rising like a poisonous phoenix.

I am nowhere near the belly of the beast as it were, but...
My observations based on things I am seeing on the interwebs tells me that the faithful are redoubling their faith and testimony and digging in for the long haul.

The herd may be thinning, but they are setting up a perimeter and are becoming more resistant to intrusion and disruption from without.

The members who know no other way of life and are afraid to even consider altering their imprinted lifestyle choices.

They will continue to carry the banner and will brainwash their offspring who will pay, pray and obey as their forefathers have for many generations.

As far as they can see all is well in Zion and thus it shal be forevermore...



Amirite?

csuprovograd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amirite?

Depends. You could be a Korihor.

On the contrary, I'm just an old truth-teller.

Not a fan of TSCC in any way, just reporting what my observations are.

If accurate, verifiable numbers were available, my guess is they'd show membership is declining, has been for years, and the decline has been more rapid in recent years.

It's anyone's guess what the exactly trajectory will be. But outcome is not in question as long as decline continues.

This of course is not unknown to folks at the top. Which is why we're seeing e.g. women mishies, "I'm a Mormon" PR campaigns, trial balloons admitting Smith's women, etc. Little of that would be happening if TSSC thought membership growing or stable.

TSCC will keep changing until the members stop leaving.

Where is the original thinking going to come from? The Q15 will always be behind the curve. They can't even try new things on a trial basis, see what works and spin up a solution. They can only decide from "revelation" (what feels good at the time).

How much novel ideas come to octogenarians?

Exactly none. They don't have a creative culture and they don't like risk.