Last year my son married a girl (DIL) who already had an infant son by a relationship with a Jack Mormon (JM). JM's TBM parents sued for custody. Eighteen agonizing months later, and many tens of thousands of dollars, TBMs lost and DIL won custody in a unanimous jury decision.

The TBMs are showing no public sign of apology or contrition, but continuing to fight for any and all access and control they can get. Privately we've received mixed messages from the TBM family members who are not the main driving force of this quixotic, scorched-earth pursuit.

To be clear, these people have seriously wounded my family. And they act like they're the victims.

My question: now that the trial is over, and a long-term relationship between the parties is now inevitable, how does forgiveness fit into this picture? What cordial relationship might eventually be possible with this TBM family? How do we get there?

Please note, breaking off contact is not possible; not legally.

Second question: how do I advise my DIL on setting boundaries regarding religious instruction of her now-toddler boy while he is visiting his TBM family?

Thanks,

JAR

Oh, DIL was nevermo but attended with TBM family during mid-teen years. Broke away during pregnancy.

And I put literally hundreds of hours of research into moism in case we wanted to use it at trial. Turned out not to be needed. So I'm well versed, just not enculturated.

Forget expecting contrition and get a lawyer to draw up a VERY specific visitation agreement with the child's father. Most states don't grant visitation rights to extended family, including grandparents. Set boundaries legally and you don't need to be nice because you'll have the legal agreement. Document all violations of the agreement, no matter how minor.

Absolutely include parameters on religious involvement. She might be able to prevent the child being taken to church but can and should insist that any baptism requires her written consent. Then notify the bishop of that legal restriction.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2015 08:28PM by caedmon.

Thanks, Caedmon.

Already done. Agreement calls for DIL to have exclusive right to religious training. But no details.

And the GPs do have visitation.

Other thoughts?

JAR

Time to go back to court and put in those specific details. Detail everything! Include specific times for pick up and drop off, child cannot be taken out of state, three day advance notice of any request for change, etc. A specific written order from the court is her best friend. Have the attorney handle it to avoid emotional manipulation.

Forgive if it makes you feel better but forgiveness does not obligate letting these people damage your family any further. You should be polite but no one has to be friends.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2015 09:38PM by caedmon.

Caedmon,

Got it. Thanks for the follow-up.

JAR

I like Caedmon's advice. And I wouldn't try for cordial at present -- polite will do just fine.

Wow. I'm sorry to hear you've had such a terrible ordeal.
My first thought is to recommend never letting those grandparents watch their grandson on Sundays (to avoid them taking him to church).

I would guess that these TBM grandparents might be unable to have a respectful relationship with boundaries, so I would recommend very limited time, and lots of caution. Maybe public places for get-togethers? Parks, restaurants - places like that? Maybe that would avoid the private religious training they might hope to accomplish.

Dinah,

Thanks for those thoughts. Unfortunately, DIL doesn't get to decide when or where or for how long, the court does. And weekends have been involved almost since birth. So I'm sure they have him over there reciting 'I belong to the church...' along with all the other darling munchkins.

Any other thoughts appreciated.

JAR

Is the father of the baby paying any child support?

It might make a difference, if he is not.

I think you need to go to court again. I know, you would like this to all be over, but it won't be over, until your daughter is free of these TBM's. Can your son try every way possible to legally adopt this baby?

If you have researched, and read RFM for a while, you know how nasty and tenacious Mormons can be. The will do anything to get a new member. Newborn babies are the Mormon cult's #1 source of new members! LDS Social Services used to advertise for newborn babies, persuading young pregnant single girls to give their babies over to LDS Social Services, and to "Give [your baby] MORE--give your baby a mother AND A FATHER." These commercials used to make me sick.

The baby's mother is married. I can't believe that the court would give visitation rights to grandparents, but I guess they are taking over from their son. The son will move on with his life, and marry someone else, but those grandparents will never let go. Your best chance is for your son to legally adopt the baby. The baby's father is the only one who needs to consent and sign the papers--not the grandparents.

ExMoBandB,

Some interesting ideas there. At this point it is clear that the father does his parents' bidding, at least in regard to the child. So a relinquishment doesn't look likely at all, but if it happened then my son would adopt in a heartbeat.

But even if all that happened, GPs were granted some rights so there is no getting free of them. The question now is how to get along.

Any further insights welcomed,

JAR

Semtex and a good alibi.

Thanks for the idea, tig. Really not interested in, uh ... blowing things out of proportion. But appreciate you throwing in your two cents. If any other thoughts come to mind, please, let's have them.

JAR

I'm so sorry your family has had to go through such an ordeal, especially your DIL and son. Thank goodness they won custody.

I am a little confused because you say the GPs have visitation rights. Is this something your DIL agreed to instead of an order of the court? I just thought it was well established in the law that GPs have absolutely no legal rights unless agreed to by the parents or the parents are found unfit. Is the bio father in the child's life and was he part of the custody battle or just his parents?

I could definitely be wrong about the GP rights, but maybe check and make sure DIL really does have to make this concession.

I would remind the GPs in writing every so often that religious training is up to DIL and they must not undertake any effort to teach the child a religion, or undercut what DIL teaches. Promptly report any violations of this or of negative talk in front of or to the child about his mother. If the father wants to be involved, that is one thing as long as he is fit, but the grandparents having rights is going way too far IMO. I don't think your family needs to have a relationship with them other than cordial dropping off/picking up.

Oh, I also wanted to say that if GPs violate any part of the agreement/order, are being difficult or anything like this, take them back to court. Argue they should not have rights because they are causing such difficulty. Maybe you will be able to shake them this way. Be vigilant about reporting violations!

Raging,

Yeah, I hear you on the confusion about visitation rights. GPs were initially thrown out of court on lack of standing. Then they came back, got a different judge, used a different part of the family code by claiming the child was in immediate danger. Bingo.

But really, everyone here seems to be saying fight to get free, not how to get along. Wow. Just wow.

Thanks. If any other thoughts come to mind please share.

JAR

One positive thought: visitation will mean that the time spent with the TBM’s will only be a fraction of the time spent with your DIL. This will likely result in your grandson appreciating the normal life he spends with his custodial parents, and probably hating the time he spends during visitation. He likely won’t grow up to choose the church.

Regarding the toughest part of your question: forgiveness. I know we connected minds on this topic earlier today, and so I am squeezing my brain to try and come up with a satisfactory response for you. Tough one, my internal forgiveness through therapy was accomplished with the understanding that I would never be in contact with my abuser again. Your situation presents a very different challenge.

Years ago, my brother divorced his wife and she vindictively dragged him over the coals for every legal detail she could, and kept doing this for years every time she could think of a new legal detail to complicate things with. The way my brother dealt with it was to always remain calm; to accept that there wasn’t much of an alternative to the way things were regarding court orders; and to just be there however he was able for his son. Emotional calm and a certain degree of acceptance of the situation seemed to get him and his son through. His son grew up to love him very much. Not so much forgiveness, but a way to cope? Don’t let them rile you or let this ruin your life.

The only other advice I can think of, knowing how some Mormon family’s raise children, would be to keep a constant vigil for any sign of emotional or physical abuse. If it ever goes there, this could probably be used as grounds for ending the visitation rights. We wouldn’t hope for that, but if it happens, you would be on it in a flash.

I am so sorry to hear of this circumstance in your life. Children deserve amicable relations when shared custody is involved. TBM’s being amicable seems like a stretch indeed. You are just going to have to be the bigger person and not emotionally react to their ‘stuff’. My heart goes out to you, and I wish for circumstances to be the best they possibly can be considering the situation.

Maybe someone else has a sure fire silver bullet for you beyond my advice of just staying composed. Good luck!

People will probably hate me here for recommending this because of the origins of the concepts, but I could recommend investigating the concepts of non-attachment and acceptance. I don't mean non-attachment to your grandson, but non-attachment to the negativity of the situation you find yourself in. It’s a way of accepting the crappy things life doles out that we have no control over; a way of rolling with life, rather than fighting what you can’t fight. But of course you always remain vigilant over your grandson. That goes without saying. Non attachment would just mean accepting this as a challenge life has thrown you, unfairly or not.

tortured,

Yes, yes and yes. At the most intense part of the process a face-to-face friend confronted me on having NO joy in my life. Told me to back up a few steps. Helped a lot. (Leave it to a woman.)

I would be glad to receive any further thoughts you have there.

Thank you,

JAR

Since you seem interested, here are some thoughts on non-attachment/non-judgement/acceptance. Here is the best self-help book for this concept. Take what it what you want, and disregard the rest. I approach these self-help books as an atheist.

The Four Insights: Wisdom, Power, and Grace of the Earthkeepers by Alberto Villoldo Ph.D.

It has not been a quick study for me to adopt this philosophy towards life, but with your grandson so young, it’s not like you don’t have time to try out some of the concepts and see if they can help you out in this situation. I approach it in a very atheist way, and am able to separate out the religious aspects from the social aspects in the discussions and exercises. I’m sure you can do this too. Other self help books cover similar concepts too; you may try reading some others as well.

For me, non-attachment/non-judgement means just accepting the bad things in life that cannot be avoided as unique experiences that have contributed to making myself me. The stuff that all collects together like soup to form the individual that I call myself …the good and the bad. As a result of abuse in my past, I have many things that are stunted unfairly in my life. But I have learned to love my life regardless of my disabilities. It hasn’t been a great life, or a fun one even, but it has been a life …and I have learned to be ok with that. Perfection is an illusion.

No one likes to see a loved one like your grandson placed in a possibly perilous position. However, whatever his unavoidable life experiences turn out to be, they will be what forms him and that will become a life. Who knows, maybe this experience will set him up to be the adult who takes down the Mormon Church. Regarding evolution, we don’t know what is a disadvantage or what might actually turn out to be an advantage, and non-attachment to outcomes teaches us not to judge. Of course we try and avoid bad things. But when we can’t, all we can do is hope for the best and allow, while remaining vigilant and open to possibilities for change that might come along. You will recognize these opportunities better if you are grounded and centered emotionally, and non-judgement/non-attachment can help keep you on balance while you wait for opportunities for change. I have also found these concepts helpful for putting up with the grumpy people in my life.

I hope I haven’t butchered the concept by trying to condense it here. It really is something that comes to one gradually. But check out Alberto Villoldo's book …I really think he is the best teacher of it, if you can stomach his book. You could also check out the Dalai Lama …he teaches compassion, which can be helpful too when dealing with idiots.

Best of luck.

tortured,

Hey, thanks for that longish and thoughtful reply. Lot's of good stuff there.

Pretty much everything you said has already crossed my mind, but it's good to hear it from the outside.

Except I think if DIL is dragged back into court again and again, it will not be about vindictiveness, but to pry her hands off her child.

Unfortunately, son and DIL are still teens -- had to grow WAY up, WAY fast -- and are up against professionals with a TEAM of attys. Not a fair fight, even with guidance from wife and me. Sigh.

As for our earlier meeting, I've removed that posting and have started this thread (and possibly others) instead.

Thanks again,

JAR

Your DIL is dealing with narcissistic grandparents. Google Narcissism to know what she is dealing with. Here is a website that I previously got off RfM that is very illuminating. Especially, read "How to Spot the Monkey Dance" on the below website. Have DIL read this and other information about narcissism, too. She needs knowledge in order to deal with them as effectively as possible.

http://thenarcissistatwork.com/

desertwoman,

I did some study in this area but didn't find the site you provided. Thanks for that. Glanced at it; I'll have a proper look later.

Pretty sure you're right. If true then Gmom is the Narc, Gdad the enabler. The jury and judge must have seen something because they cut Gmom out of everything; it's Gdad and father that have rights. Gmom's access is through them.

As for passing the info to DIL, I've mentioned it to her, but need to be very cautious. She's been WAY FAR on overload for a VERY LONG time. When the opportunity is right...

So far, working it from the Narc angle, it's been about setting/enforcing boundaries, displaying self-confidence, and avoiding drama. Any other suggestions welcomed.

Any thoughts on how to get along?. All I've seen from the Narc angle is, don't bother trying. Surely we can do better than that?

If you think of anything, please pass it along.

Thank you,

JAR

Forgive them? Why???

Hi matt,

Yeah, well that's probably going to be another thread.

In the meantime, keep in mind that the child (that sounds so clinical for describing a toddler I love more than life itself) is likely to be better off if extended family at least appears to get along.

And don't forget the potential de-conversion opportunity.

Thanks for checking in with your thought.

JAR

don't even concentrate on forgiveness until theres enough healing....i repeat it, do not focus on forgiveness until there is enough healing. we get so trained to HAVE TO forgive....you don't know if you even want to forgive right now so put that aside. focus on healing and whatever goes with that, do what you need to relating to that.

second, i'm saying this from love and experience with divorce/custody stuff with my ex mormon husband. they.don't care that they wounded anyone....they don't think logically on any subject....sorry, they are taught not to. do your best to protect family members as you can and be prepared to say 'no' to requests that damage others for the benefit of mormon ideas.

as far as parenting styles, and religious choice there has to be a written agreement that everyone is held to. my ex forces my son to go to church with him even though i don't want it and i let it slide a little because he doesn't see dad a lot. Hopefully, they aren't finatical enough to push their ideas real far. you might have to give all of this some thought, let it unfold a little and don't do anything.unless you know without a doubt its the right action. Don't be pressured or swayed to go along with anything. the hardest thing is not doing anything until you are certain. Let the family heal, right now the selfishness has stirred you up, and pushed buttons that make you feel a sense of responsibility and a need to fix it, you don't have to fix the mess a selfish person made. Cool down a little, allow clear thinking to come in. people control others through panic.

siouxsie42,

Healing first, then forgiveness. Dang! So wise. And perceptive.

And I thought I WAS cooling down. Good thing you didn't meet me a few weeks ago.

But, yes, you are so right. Thank you.

JAR

just so you know, i sound all wise but i have the same problem. it can take me up to a month to calm down sometimes on the secondary note. i just know you will do the best thing you can in the long run and thats all that matters :-)

Just help son and DILI be the best parents possible. Strong presence in child's life of you and your wife will be very important to young parents. Hope your son and DIL hold off on having kids til they are a little older.

Divorce and custody issues are during a very emotional time. time and routine will gradually calm the waters a little. child's bio dad may find visitation lots of work and may resent own parents pushing him to have child so often.

Insist child's dad do pick up and drop off to limit DIL's contact with grandparents. make sur DIL always have someone with her during contact times.

I think a child exposed to rigid mormons and normal regular people will not be drawn to the mormon world of guilt and shame and ridiculous rules. What child would choose a Mormon Sunday, really?

annieg,

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

Yes, strong presence in child's life. We carved out a piece of the house as their apartment; they pay real rent. I work at home with open door policy for little punkin'.

Can't figure out biodad. He moved out of state to go to school, so the official story line goes. We don't see him anymore. Our working theory is that he's in drug rehab and signed up for online classes.

"What child would choose a Mormon Sunday, really?"

The thought had crossed my mind, but I hear so much (remember, we're all nevermo) about the intensity and effectiveness of the indoctrination from birth. Those are comforting words and it's good to hear you say them.

Feel free to add any further thoughts. And thank you again,

JAR

Personally, I don't like the idea of forgiveness. It implies that you are/were wrong to be emotionally involved and that you ought to get over it. Pushing the need for absolute forgiveness, in my humble opinion, is one of Christianity's big screw-ups.

What I do favor is acceptance. It makes sense to accept that they're crazy and find ways to live with difficult people in a difficult situation.

zara,

Truly appreciate those words.

I'm beginning to sense that the word 'forgiveness' means something slightly different to Mormons (and exmos) than it does to normal people. Like maybe the religion or culture tries to force forgiveness out of people? And you're warning me against giving in? This isn't the first time I've encountered trouble with the definition or perhaps connotation of that word.

Because I am largely in agreement with the rest of what you just said. I especially take to heart your opinion about Christianity's screw-up, being Christian myself. I think you have a valid point for me to ponder.

As for finding ways to deal with difficult people, if you have any ideas specific to the situation, feel free to pop them into the thread.

Thanks again,

JAR

My suggestion is to have your visitation court paperwork with you for any visit.
It maybe necessary to use Supervised Visitation, which I would recommend in this case. (I have done this job for the courts.)
You'll need a neutral place to do exchanges, and times and places kept to the orders.

Forgiveness is what you do for yourself not for anyone else. For myself, I can forgive the action as they don't know any better. But that's just me.

SusieQ,

The topic of forgiveness could easily be an entire thread of its own. Maybe I'll do that.

"Forgiveness is for yourself." Yes, I'm well acquainted with that perspective. It's good to hear it confirmed. Thank you.

As for "they don't know any better" I'm beginning to think you may be right about that. It's just so hard for me to fathom, especially being the kind of person who does nothing and says nothing unless it is well thought out, deep, purposeful and meaningful.

For someone to drop a nuclear bomb on accident (metaphor) just isn't in my realm. And there are so many nooks and crannies and twists and turns to this story that I haven't even touched on. Its been more like near constant Pearl Harbor style sneak attacks of nuclear carpet bombing over and over and over again.

[Checking blood pressure.] Ok, I think I should close this out now.

Thanks for your wisdom and kind words,

JAR