Wow! I couldn't believe what I was reading!

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/quinn.html

I hope, since Hinkley died and he KNOWS all the fakery he'll get out already!

From Quinn's remarks in the PBS Interview:

"Missionaries would come to me for counsel about various things, about teaching and whatever. But these were like a confessional, because missionaries would come to me, and many of them, with tears in their eyes, and these young men in their 20s -- 19 to 20, 21 years of age -- tears streaming down their faces, saying, "I don't have a testimony, and I don't know what's wrong." They would say: "Tell me, how do you know? How can you say that you know?" It wasn't a challenge; it was begging to know what they could do to gain the kind of testimony that I had. And they would say to me [that] they had prayed and they had fasted, and some of them were fasting two and three times a week, two or three days without any food or water, trying to gain this inward testimony. ... They were just brokenhearted, because they had done everything that they had been taught to do, and they did not have faith, and it was just killing them. ..."

-------------------------------------------------------------

And then, this from the Topics area of RFM:



"No Testimony? -- So What's Wrong With You!"
Date: Jun 03 2004
Author: EOTC

----------------------------------------------------------------


"There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for your not having a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel - period.

Here's the reasoning:

(1) Moroni PROMISES it - it isn't just a "possibility", it's a PROMISE! And God's promises simply MUST happen! The LDS prophets have all reaffirmed it to be "Moroni's Promise" and God couldn't lie about such a thing, because...

(2) "When you do as I say, I am BOUND!" That's what God admits in Mormon scripture, so He has no choice; He HAS to deliver this revelation of certain truth, furthermore..

(3) God will give you no commandment without "preparing a way" for you to obey it. S0...

If you don't know (not just believe, but "know") that the church is true through "personal revelation" it is perfect evidence of your unworthiness, guilt, foolishness, sinfulness, yada yada yada -- and you can't escape this self-evident proof.

PROVIDED THE CHURCH IS TRUE, OF COURSE.

There's the rub. It's also why people who claim to have "testimonies" must necessarily be accusing those who admit they don't have testimonies of being spiritual failures. The church's extreme testimony doctrine creates an inescapable conflict for both souls:

Person one: "If I truly have a testimony and you DON'T, I MUST believe (no matter how tactful I may appear) that you are unworthy."

Person two: "If I truly believe that I AM a decent person in God's eyes but honestly know that I have NO testimony (having not received this "perfect knowledge" via revelation), then you must either be lying or be in a state of delusion."

But we both can't win.

This "knowledge conceit" that is perpetuated by the church ends up dividing nearly everyone: friends, family members, husbands, wives, parents, children, etc.. It amounts to a profound you-verse-me contest striking at the very soul of individual self esteem and inner spiritual security. That's why there's so much tension between members and non-members, actives and in-actives.

It's also why your TBM neighbors and relatives pester you the way they do. It's why the GAs complain that people "leave the church, but don't leave it alone."

Yet the church threw the first punch in this fight and it can't back down without calling God a liar...It's a superiority thing that THEY started, not the rest of us. Now we have a right to defend our spiritual decency!

How best can we do it?"

_______________________________________________________________

I think Quinn is an amazing guy and certainly very smart, but this is one of the things that is 100% based upon assumption and not fact: "...from childhood, whenever I would think about God or pray, I would feel this burning feeling and sensation within me."

So thinking about god gives you that burning, and it is completely logical that that feeling is from god.

It couldn't be linked because of some other reason; no. It must be a sign that god exists.

That's why Quinn, and millions of Mormons, follow theistic beliefs, Joe is a prophet beliefs, and the book of mormon is true beliefs.

It's sad that evidence isn't factored into that conclusion.

I talked/prayed to God since I was a little girl and 'felt' that God heard me indeed. That was way before I was introduced to moism, at which time I never had a 'burning in the bussom' experience. I did after I left tho' :)

Quote:

"How did the church grow so fast and what kind of pressure came along with that?

Well, this was a terrible thing. I was a missionary, and my experience is true of all LDS missionaries. You're separated from your family, very often for the first time in your life. You're in an unusual environment. ... And then to be put under the situation that if you're really going to please your mission president, who's your kind of substitute father, you've got to come up with high numbers of baptisms. ... Missionaries just threw ethics to the wind, and they did whatever was necessary to do to please their mission presidents. ..."

---------------------------------------------------------------

My comment :

All or most of us know this already of course.

Basically young missionaries are being ABUSED by Cult Leaders. They are led to beleive that 'worthiness' is a factor of whether they get baptisms or not.

Imagine if many of you here set out now on a mission in your wiser and more learned middle age.

What would your responses be to mission president and church leaders? I can only imagine. lol

This whole Testimony thing is balloney. The facts of history/archeology/linguistics/science/common sense etc show the Book of Mormon is a complete fraud simply made up by a con man.

Testimony is just another Mormon fraudulent and deceptive way of recruitment and ignoring the facts and reality of the fraudulent claims of LDS church leaders past, present and future if they have one.

Click on "Baseball" and "beach" babtisms under "Highlights"

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/quinn.html

If that's not fraud I don't know what is!

It's interesting to me how Mormons insult other religions for baptizing babies and actually seem to feel superior for waiting until their children turn eight. I've been told by Mormons that is because an eight-year-old is able to decide for themselves whether to be baptized. Please! No eight-year-old I know is wise enough to make such a heavy, emotional and rational choice such as baptism into a faith. The majority of these children have been brainwashed from birth, of course they are going to choose to be baptized. Plus, there's a party to follow with cake and lemonade.

I was disappointed when I found out they didn't have the transcript from the Palmer interview though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2011 09:08PM by Freevolved.

Michael Quinn quoting Elder Packer (from the link in the O.P.’s post above.)

“Elder Packer said, ‘I have a hard time with historians, because historians idolize the truth.’ I almost sunk into my chair. I mean, that statement just bowled me over.

"Then he went on to say, quoting him as accurately as I can ...: ‘The truth is not uplifting. The truth destroys. And historians should tell only that part of the truth that is uplifting, and if it's religious history, that's faith-promoting.’ And he said, ‘Historians don't like doing that, and that's why I have a hard time with historians.’

<Gag>

that's horrible. were/are they that desperate?