I'm in a tight spot. I'm ready to exit but there are so many cultural issues keeping me in.

1. My wife is what I would call a good TBM. Just a good person. Not really judgmental. She has said that she will support me in whatever I choose. But I know it will hurt her.

2. My kids. I don't want to miss out on being a part of their baby blessings and baptisms and all that crap. I know none of it is real, but from a cultural standpoint it is very real. It was very much a part of my growing up.

I don't mind many of the cultural aspects of the church. But I don't think I'm going to be able to be truthful in my next temple recommend interview and pass. I'm ready to exit. I'm ready to have a beer.

well if your ready to leave then i would say leave. im not sure what TBM is, but if she is a good person and your no longer believing in the faith then you shouldn't stay just because your afraid of hurting her. if she loves you then she will support you. come join us and have a good beer. :)

TBM = "True Blue Mormon" or "True Believing Mormon"

http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/abbreviations

That's what cults do.

When and if you're ready, go for it!

Remember that how others react is a reflection of their programming. The church teaches them to react badly when others leave and this is why they have trouble dealing. If there are problems, remember that you didn't cause them. The church did.

Families don't overreact if one person decides to quit a garden club or a book discussion group. It's cultism that's a problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 06:29PM by Cheryl.

For heaven's sake, go ahead and have the beer. You are a responsible adult. Are you really going to let someone else decide what you can and can not drink?

There are a range of options that you may or may not have considered. For instance you can lie during your temple recommend interview, or you can dial back your church activity to attending SM only or just once or twice a month. I would consider dialing back your activity first. You probably have a chunk of time between your next baby blessing or baptism. Use that time to experiment with your level of activity and see how it feels.

Also consider that someone in your family needs to be the one to break the chain. The mainstream Christian churches do not hold your family hostage because you do not have every box checked on a check off list.

I have no problem lying for a temple recommend. I wouldn't want to lie to my wife though. I'm still working through that.

I like the idea that someone needs to be first from my family to break the chain.

Feels stupid, but this really is one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. First world problems, I know.

Lying to your wife is another matter.

Having left about a year ago, this struggle is still very fresh in my mind. I am very fortunate that when my wife found out the real church history, she also was done. Others are not as fortunate... but at least in your case, your wife seems accepting. Based on what others in a similar situation have said here, just be extra good to her. Prove to her that you are the same person. I know people personally near me who are in a mixed (exmo/TBM) relationship and it can work with the right attitude and level of respect from BOTH sides.

Is she aware of the complicated church history? Would she be willing to read "Rough Stone Rolling" by LDS historian Richard Bushman? Is she open to reading cesletter.com (about 80 pages, 2 hours read) to getting the complete picture? Or checking out mormonthink.com? That may at least help her understand where you're coming from.

Anyway, yes, my wife and I got out for the sake of our kids. It actually hasn't been that bad... we're nice to the ward members and have known them for quite some time. They are good well-meaning people, although of course they think that we're deceived and perhaps think that we'll come back (we haven't resigned yet). So it's not that bad if you navigate carefully... at least not for me. Although there may be TBM friends or family that won't take it well.

I wish the very best for you. Do what you feel is right on your own timeline. It seems like now (or soon) may be the time.

I have Rough Stone Rolling. When I first read it she was not interested. That was about a year or two ago. Just a few months ago I asked her if she would be willing to read it so we would be on the same page. She said she was willing but hasn't taken the initiative yet. I'm not trying to push her either way though I would love if she would come out with me. I'm trying to be as patient as possible with this. I'll wait until after the holidays and try to move the needle a little further.

It sounds like you're handling it just right. Hopefully she sees eye to eye with you...

I thought I would miss those traditions too. I left and created new rites of passage for our family instead. For example, instead of blessings from priesthood holders, I invited everyone to offer a blessing for the baby and a blessing for the baby's world. It's not the same as an in church rite but turned out to be better and more intimate because people really liked offering a blessing. I was worried my kids would miss out but instead my son who was almost twelve was relieved. He hadn't wanted to be baptized and only did it to fit in with the kids in primary. He felt incredible pressure not to disappoint his dad. Now he felt like he didn't have to receive the aaronic priesthood. Turned out that for my kids the culture piece was about peer pressure and guilt. None of them have asked to get baptised or receive the priesthood. If you leave and are very open and honest about why, your kids will see you as a man with integrity. They will be more likely to have integrity too. Your wife might feel relieved too. It may hurt because she's been told it's her fault if your children don't stay faithful but if she truly believes in agency she can stop worrying about forcing her belief on her children and enjoy letting them discover the world for themselves. The cultural piece is big, but you will find that outside the church your family is free to create it's own culture of acceptance and honesty.

about #2: the only reason those things are significant to you is that they were emphasized when you were young

there are many milestone moments in a child's life that you can make a bigger deal out of: first day of school each year, first recital or concert, first sports competition, etc.

likely these are type of events that will have greater impact on your relationship with your kids anyway - i mean, mormonism sets the bar pretty low as the events you are talking about are really nothing more than you putting your hands on your kids' heads and mumbling for a minute or two...

and yes, there will be many people in their lives (TBM mother, TBM grandparents, etc) that will try to make the mormon milestone moments out to be all-important but you can be the real world contrast to that - this is the reality that i live in with my TBM ex and now that my kids are becoming teens it is starting to become obvious to them what really matters in family relationships

they can see that the mormon milestones are really just a way that their self-absorbed TBM mother can feel smug about herself and not about the kids at all...

just consider that you don't need to be a part of TSCC to be a good father

or, to say that another way, kids are smart so you don't need to be a part of TSCC for your kids to feel like they have a good father

How many kids get to be Mormons?

gentlestrength Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many kids get to be Mormons?

Too many...

...and I feel for all of them...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 05:27PM by tevai.

In the larger perspective, the church is not the main problem here.

The problem is that the natural man is an animal, and joins groups like a church to feel secure. Because in their minds they are so dependent on the group for survival, anything threatening their group they take as a personal threat. They see someone leaving as weakening or threatening the group.


You would think people would rely most on their spouses and families for support, but that isn't the case. Wedding vows are often a sham - people enter them to get something, not some vague notion of "love".

So, cult members really don't believe in free agency. There are various ways to coerce others to stick with the group - shame, anger, badgering, shunning, threatening divorce, etc.

So rather than focus on church history and doctrine, I would have a talk with your wife and ask which is her primary source of support - you or the church. And I would ask her if she believes in free agency. And if there is free agency, there shouldn't be punishments attached to choosing what you want. Making choices with a gun to your head isn't freedom.

You might be told if you don't want the celestial kingdom, you will be separated from family. Ask why a loving god would do such a thing. It is nonsense. And since they can't figure out their policy on polygamy, they sure as hell can't say how other things will be in heaven.

Anyway, you need to ask yourself if you want to keep playing the game and subjecting yourself to control freaks. It should bother you that you don't feel free to follow your own path because of fear of how others will react.

No different than playground bullies.

I'm in a similar position to you right now, but my children are babies and a toddler. I don't want them to become Mormon. I want them to see how oppressive they are to me and others, how incorrect and misguided and deceptive they are with the facts, etc..

My FIL once had a falling out after going through the Tanner's books (long before he was my FIL). He researched a bunch of stuff in the pre-internet days and left to go to other religions (but didn't resign and not ex'd), even teaching at a synagogue at one point for instance. He didn't like the idea of his children going on missions and required that my wife read a Tanner book before serving. She obviously didn't like or trust the book. FIL had since come back and was able to attended his children's temple marriages--that's all I'll say about FIL for now.

But now I am become the family's church 'drop out', only my own children are not baptized, they being too young, and I'd like to keep it that way. But it breaks my wife's heart. And it feels to me like the church is after them, through my family members and even neighbors.

I've weathered a whole slew of false accusations much to my character getting assassinated, have lost opportunities, heavily bullied, detected nutritional warfare, am continuously hounded by members of the Mormon church seeking to defraud me for defense of their church's image, etc, etc. (it's how I learned of their strategies and tactics, by being targeted by it) But still for years I clung on to it just thinking that people would be people and that JS was fallen as opposed to false, etc. We've switched wards, stakes, moved once (and about to move again) but no let up. No. I can't allow my children to become part of so corrupt and hypocritical an institution. I wish to high heaven that my wife would leave with me so that then we could steer clear of it together. I'm just stuck right now and its the oppressive church's fault; I will NOT give in to their organized, compulsive and coercive 'disciplinary methods'. We're a family that still believes in god.

So I don't have any advice for you about your situation. I just post to tell you that you're not alone.

I'm in a similar boat, but travelling on a different course. My wife does not know, yet, of my unbelief (several reasons, all having to do with "kindness" on my part because she's had way too much to deal with already - that's another story). We recently moved from Texas to Colorado. In Texas, I was the first assistant to the high priest group leader in the ward. After the move, I have yet to receive a calling. I have spoken in SM and given a lesson to the High Priest group, but managed to couch everything I said in language that was honest and never professed personal belief or gave "testimony".

That's a tight rope to walk!

My plans to discuss my beliefs (or lack thereof regarding TSCC) with my wife are being held until after the holidays and when her levels of stress have subsided to a large degree. At that point I will certainly stop attending. I will leave it up to her to decide her course and will support her accordingly.

Our families and extended families are largely (99.9%) TBM and I don't look forward to their reaction, at all. But personal integrity is my goal. Until I accomplish that, I am not at peace, internally.

Hi Nervous About Leaving---

What you are doing will be huge, so some nerves are appropriate. If you live in a strongly LDS environment, you have your work cut out for you. For every cool fun thing done at church, you may have to offer something better.

If your wife is ok with this, then you are way ahead of most people in this situation. You can do this! Show your children that you can be a good person without being LDS. Cheers to you!

Being the first one out in a family might eventually be a great honor. Think of some future generation looking at your picture saying. "That is grandpa Jonessb, he was the first one to think his way out of the church."

Make sure your wife is truly onboard. When the rubber meets the road alliances can change due to the natural survival instinct.

If she is good with you leaving then have a conversation with her about paying close attention to the reactions of others. Ask her if the coming reactions she experiences square up with what Jesus taught. Is there shunning, asking for the censorship of her children, sadness for her situation where none is necessary, worries about the kids safety spiritual or physical. You shall know them by their fruits. If she is listening maybe she will hear the other side of Mormonism.

Ask her if free agency in any way is blocked, deterred, or outright trampled on when you and your decisions are discussed in church. Ask her why are they even discussed. They will be discussed. Do they fear for the family unjustly so?
Will your character be slighted in that condescending manner that we all know?

Make sure she is ready for what is to come. Have her read what Christ taught about an unbelieving spouse.

1 Corinthians 7:10-16:
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.
13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.
14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.
16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

Then ask her if church cultural norms and the pressures of modern day dogma get to trump what Christ taught?

Good luck. Remember. If you love your wife more than the church tell her. But don't love your wife by lying to yourself.

I don't believe in the church or god but I think a fathers "blessing" is so special! It has nothing to do with a church, religion or god. It has to do with a father holding his beauiful child in his arms and wishing them the best and bestowing his love upon them. And no father ever has to take that away from him and his child. Just my side note.

Pull the plug...

Let come what will. Its hard but it is the only way to true happiness.

Leaving is not an all or nothing thing. Take a Sunday off and see how it feels. You can always go back if you miss it.

There is no timetable or rules for leaving. Go at your own pace and do not feel like you should or should not at any point. Go with what makes you comfortable.