Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:01AM

I know we have a number of members of our community who embrace the findings of some scholars who argue that Jesus may be a mythical figure who never actually existed.

I'm not asking for a rehash of that position, but want to take it to the next step with this. I'd like to hear what you feel may be the source of the myth, and if you have any specific information that addresses your opinion.

Again, I'm not looking for posts arguing that Jesus is a myth. We have already seen many of those. Let's take it to the next step. What is the origin of the Jesus myth?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Third Vision ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:26AM

With Paul, perhaps? The Thesssalonian epistles are widely considered to be the oldest books of the New Testament, and are full of references not just to "Christ" or "Lord," but to "Jesus."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Third Vision ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:38AM

I've been thinking that I may have misunderstood your question. I was assuming for the sake of argument that Jesus never existed, and then speculating about the source of the myth. Are you looking for a plausible theory of the origin of the mythical character Jesus, without which the assertion that he never existed remains not only unproven but unprovable? Something like that?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:45AM

Third Vision Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've been thinking that I may have misunderstood
> your question. I was assuming for the sake of
> argument that Jesus never existed, and then
> speculating about the source of the myth. Are you
> looking for a plausible theory of the origin of
> the mythical character Jesus, without which the
> assertion that he never existed remains not only
> unproven but unprovable? Something like that?


Well, sort of. There have been a number of posts and debates here about whether or not Jesus actually existed. I'm curious to hear from those who believe there was no real Jesus, what was the cause of the Jesus story in the first place? And how did you arrive at that -- was there some supporting evidence that led you to believe your source for the Jesus myth instead of there just actually being a person named Jesus at the start?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:50AM

. . . as explained in a description of Richard Carrier's "On Paul's Theory of Resurrection: The Carrier-O'Connell Debate" (2008):

"Richard Carrier opens this debate by defending the proposition that the Apostle Paul, our earliest source for original Christian beliefs, believed that God supplied Jesus (as he will supply us) with a new body at his resurrection, rather than raising up the body that was buried (contrary to the evolved versions of Christianity we find today). To the contrary, Jake O'Connell argues that first-century Jewish sources always use the term "resurrection" to denote a "one-body" view of resurrection, and thus Paul is likely using it to mean the same. In the end, O'Connell concludes that there are a few instances in which Paul unambiguously affirms a one-body theory, while there are none in which he clearly affirms a two-body view. By contrast, Carrier ultimately concludes that much of scholarship, as well as Paul's own words (explicitly and implicitly), supports the notion that Paul held a two-body view of resurrection."

("Official Website of Richard Carrier," at; http://www.richardcarrier.info; see also, "Richard Carrier," at: http://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/)


Carrier, again, on Paul and his possible part in the creation of the "Jesus Myth":

"Contrary to an oft-repeated myth in contemporary scholarship, before Christianity began both Romulus and Osiris were believed by their devotees to be slain deities subsequently resurrected to heavenly glory (as were many others of the type, from Zalmoxis to Dionysus to Adonis to Inanna), who now could bring glory or salvation to their followers. . . . [For example], each year Osiris descends and becomes incarnate and is slain not on earth, but in the lower heavens, and then rises from the dead and reascends to power in the upper heavens, having gained power over death by this cosmic ritual, which he then shares with his earthly devotees. In the earliest redaction we can reconstruct of the Ascension of Isaiah, this appears to be exactly what was imagined to happen for Jesus, only once for all, not yearly.[

"On this theory, when Paul says 'the scriptures' tell us that Jesus 'died' and 'was buried' and only then was he ever 'seen' by Cephas and the apostles (1 Cor. 15:3-5), he means exactly what he says. Just as in this and all other summaries of the gospel Paul provides, . . . there is no mention of a ministry, or of Jesus being seen by anyone (much less anyone taught and hand-picked by him in life), because these things did not yet exist in Christian conception. They would be allegorical fictions contrived later by the authors of the Gospels. . . . Paul wrote [that] the death and burial of Jesus were known only from hidden messages in scripture, just as Romans 16:25-26 says. . . . [T]his knowledge was facilitated by this Jesus then at last appearing to the apostles to inform them of all this, and what it meant. In fact, being thus visited by the celestial Christ is what secured one’s status as an apostle."

("Update on 'Historicity of Jesus.'" by Richard Carrier, 17 July 2013, at: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4090; see also, "Questioning the Historicity of Jesus," by Richard Carrier, at: http://www.strangenotions.com/questioning-the-historicity-of-jesus/)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 05:53AM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: WestBerkeleyFlats ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 08:51AM

Except that Paul states that Jesus was born of a woman under the Law, explicitly had a physical form, distributed bread and wine to his followers, and had a brother who was leader of his followers after his death. Paul clearly believes in a mortal Jesus in this world prior to the crucifixion and an immortal Jesus who sometimes appears in this world in some form after.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 09:20AM

. . . put up earlier, citing Carrier (but this time I'm leaving the scriptural references in for you):

"Of course, there is much to debate. When Paul twice refers to 'Brothers of the Lord,' does he mean biological kin, or baptized Christians (who were all Brothers of the Lord: Rom. 8:15-29)? When Paul says Jesus 'came to be' ('genomenos') from the 'sperm of David,' does he mean descended from David, or manufactured by God, literally from the sperm of David?

"When Paul says Jesus 'came to be' ('genomenos') 'from a woman' does he mean literally, or allegorically (as in Gal. 4:24)? When Paul says Jesus was 'tempted in every way,' does he mean as an ordinary man, or merely resisting the temptation to seize absolute divine power (as in Phil. 2:5-9)?

"When Paul says Jesus was 'declared' the 'Son of God in power' from his resurrection, is he referring to a post-hoc rationalization of a cult leader’s death, or to God’s heavenly re-bestowment of a humbled archangel’s prior status?"

("On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt," by Richard Carrier, August 2014, at: http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/2014/08/car388028.shtml; referenced by Steve Benson in "Bad News for the Carrier Bashers: His Research Has Been Peer Reviewed," on "Recovery from Mormonism" discussion board,' 19 December 2014, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1463300,1463490#msg-1463490)
_____


Stop yourself, "Flats," before you post again--only to be advised that, yet again, you didn't read before shooting your mouth off on matters previously linked which you haven't bothered to read (and which end up not doing your case, or your creds, much good).

Just sayin.'

You're making this waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy for me. :)



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 09:57AM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The Invisible Green Potato ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:47AM

I think the book of Daniel and the Ascension of Isaiah are the main sources for the cosmic Jesus.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:53AM

Myths made from whole cloth:
First Vision
If you wear an authorized green apron, your marriage will last forever.
Resurrection
Atonement
All Mormon scripture
Laetrile
Demigod nature of Kim Jong Un

There are millions of people who accept all of the above as real, not myth. Hundreds of millions in some cases. Total myths.

Frodo, on the other hand is real. You can tour his house for $12.50.

How did the Jesus myth get started? How does any urban legend get started? Sometimes there is a kernel of reality, but often it is total fabrication. This whole Jesus debate is about whether there is a kernel of reality.

So much tempest. So little teapot.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Third Vision ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:55AM

This whole debate came along at a busy time for me. I know Benson posted some lengthy quotes on the subject, and they got me thinking. But I'm also writing a report for work and reading the book "Zealot," which I came across last week. I also want to read parts of Matthew and Luke before Christmas.

I hope you guys figure it out. If not, I'll get into it after Christmas.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:57AM

My feeling is that most people who are interested in this question in all of its various aspects tend to be uninterested in (or unaware of) what I consider the crux of the problem:

The political "weather" of the time: both the non-Jewish aspects of this (Roman rule of a province foreign to the Romans, and rule that the locals didn't like one bit more than most any other situation similar to this in history), and also the internal Jewish politics (because Judaism was undergoing a fundamental, and what would prove to be a permanent, "change"---which was a lot more like an internal Jewish revolution in its ultimate effects, which continue right up to today in the way that Judaism itself is constituted, and is still going on---there are Jews right now, who despite being a minority within Judaism (Thank God!!!!!!!!!), possess important support within the Israeli national government, who are passionately and fervently dedicated to undoing the Judaism of the past two thousand years to take it back to something very much like the Judaism that existed under Roman rule).

One of the aphorisms of Jewish existence is the saying: "Two Jews, three opinions," and though this may not necessarily be mathematically always exactly correct, the sense of it is ALWAYS true in Jewish life, regardless of any historical or present era you care to name.

So going back two thousand years...lots of Jews with 150% (half-more than 100%) passionate opinions---all contending with each other. Lots of advocates and opponents on all sides of every issue...lots of Jews trying to convince their relatives and neighbors and the Jewish people at large that "their" side is correct. Lots of yeasty ferment, fed in no small part by the resentment of the Jews (and all the other Roman-occupied peoples and cultures) towards their harsh (and often unbelievably cruel) Roman overlords...always exacerbated in every way and in every degree by what is now, in retrospect, obvious was a genuine, real revolution within Judaism between the Judaism of the hereditary Jewish priestly caste, and the Judaism of the common people (which was the side of the Pharisees, and which became what we now conceive of as rabbinical Judaism). The Pharisees won, and most every Jew today is very happily a Pharisee "descendant" (the exceptions being the idiots who are spending their lives trying to reconstitute the hereditary Jewish priestly caste and temple "worship"---which means: animal sacrifice). (I have personally talked to, and listened to, a chunk of these people who are spending every moment of their ENTIRE LIVES in this effort, and they are totally fucking INSANE!!!)

And this is ME, more than two thousand years after the events you are speaking about, explaining MY passionate take on this subject. Obviously, there is some ferocious continuity here. ;)

Back then, there were LOTS of Jewish men (most of whom were fairly or extremely conversant in Jewish law in all of its multitudinous aspects), who were going around, gathering followers (both male Jews and female Jews), and trying to get "their" take [whatever it was] "elected" as THE way Judaism would be. No different than any group trying to win a social revolution (women's sufferage...civil rights...anti-Vietnam War...LGBT equal rights) in a relatively politically "free" society (because, even under Roman rule, the Jews were free in their souls...Jews are generally not easy marks when it comes to reducing their freedom to think, to analyze, and to work passionately towards an end they find right and compelling).

Back then, there was no concept of "politics"---everything was conceptualized as "religion," which greatly muddies the waters when we are trying to understand the social currents of two thousand years ago. Back then, the two were understood by EVERYONE as "one" thing: RELIGION, and if you tried to go back and say: "Hey, guys, you THINK you're arguing about religion, but you aren't, you're arguing about POLITICS...", well...they would have thought you might have well have been talking about people living on the Moon or Martian alien invaders, because they would have understood what you were trying to communicate just about as well.

There were a LOT of Jews back then, all of whom had deeply held, truly passionate opinions, who were out and about trying to "convert" other Jews (mostly) to THEIR "cause"---and that "cause," as THEY saw it, was "religion"...except it actually wasn't (by our understanding).

The "political" and the "religious" were conceived as one...and in that lengthy and passionate struggle, Greek thinking was infiltrating (it was all around, both as specifically "Greek," and also as "Roman"-originally-from-Greece---not to mention all the other cultural influences which were involved: Babylonian, Persian, etc.).

In a time in which no one had a driver's license or a passport, a bunch of Jewish guys (who may or may not have lived at exactly the same time), who created local political-expressed-as-religious followings, were sort of mushed together in a new and innovative Israeli salad...

...and that "salad" became what is now known as Christianity...

...and the "bunch of Jewish guys," enhanced and strengthened by the prevailing and then ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern mythical legends like virgin birth, came together as a whole and became, inadvertently but eventually collectively, known as the "person" we now conceive of as "Jesus".

Or this is the way I understand it, anyway.

;) ;) ;)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 06:17AM by tevai.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 06:01AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 06:14AM

Thank you, Steve...I appreciate your words more than you know!

:)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: richardthebad (not logged in) ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:50PM

That's pretty much how I see it too.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: reuben nli ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 07:49AM

I have read that the Romans created the Jesus myth as a way to hijack radical judaism. they wanted to create a less violent religion that was more pliable. Using a Roman Jew (Paul) as the proponent of the faith would help.

The trouble with this or any conspiracy theory is that they are completely unworkable in the real world.

The Occham's razor answer is that Jesus was a revolutionary jew who had a very devout group of followers who had invested too much to give up when he died, and the movement for jewish sovereignty morphed into a religion.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 08:07AM

It may have been for the same reason that Christians eventually appropriated pagan holidays and turned them into their own -- they wanted to take in believers from the various cults of the time and make them feel at home, and the cultists needed a way to make their new beliefs mesh with their old beliefs.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: WestBerkeleyFlats ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 09:02AM

The origins of the early Christian movement appear to be the brief and generally unsuccessful ministry of a Jewish preacher from Galilee. His message appears to relate to the imminent restoration of Israel's God's chosen kingdom on earth. He was arrested and executed in Jerusalem by Romans. His few followers were disappointed and confused but coalesced in a small religious community that included the preacher's relatives. An early convert to the movement, Paul, dramatically extended the movement through his energetic ministry and preaching of its message to non-Jews. The movement originally preserved memories of the preacher's acts and sayings through oral history, which was further elaborated with mythic and legendary elements, until this tradition was written in various ways with further theological interpretation several decades after the preacher's death. The preacher obviously did not view himself as divine, given that he was Jew, but did believe that he had some special insight into God's will and perhaps a special role in God's plan for Israel. Some of his followers came to believe that his life had caused him to be accepted by God as a "son" and that his death served as a sacrificial role. Further theological development equated this preacher with God in some way to preserve the movement's monotheistic tradition from Judaism.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 09:10AM

I'm not sure that we can know the complete answer to that question. I mean, do we know who started the myth about Zeus, or Ganesh, or another half god like Hercules?

We can probably pick out some of the contributors, like Paul, or some of the contributing factors, like if we examine the myths that the story-tellers were exposed to at the time.

I've noticed that the Jews liked to take myths that they already knew, like the Mesopotamian story of Gilgamesh, and reinvent them with a Jewish spin. It's pretty obvious that Gilgamesh was a strong contributor to the story of Noah.

I've always felt that there are several factors coming together over time to create Jesus' story, which eventually became what it is today.

But again, we can certainly examine possible contributing factors, like Paul, Justinian and Charlemagne.

I watched an interesting TV program done by Simcha Jacobovici, where he examined the stories of three local Messiah wannabes as possible sources for the story.

He examines both sides of the story, but I thought the program was interesting. I just quickly tried to find the names of those local wannabes, but I couldn't find it. I just woke up, actually. LOL I'll have to look further later.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 09:13AM

I just read the replies above mine. I like how tevai called it a "salad." That's basically how I've always thought of it.

I don't think there is any one source and the story that we have today developed over centuries. Even Joseph Smith's First Vision story evolved over time, until they finally settled on the version that they put in their scriptures. Today they don't even know that there were earlier versions of the story.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: heberjgrunt ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 09:14AM

For me the jury is still out on whether he never existed on this earth, versus a marginal revolutionary jew with followers who later became God.

If he were a mythical figure to start with, then that would have originated with Paul and the other "apostles" who had visions and were sent out to proclaim that type of God, i.e., one who worked everything out in the upper and lower heavens. That cosmic Christ was later euhemerized in the gospels. The gospels also look to me (especially Mark) to be suspiciously like something that an educated Roman (maybe a Flavian) would have written as propaganda to create a less violent religion.

If he were a revolutionary jew on this earth to start with then he later became God as explained in Bart Ehrman's book "How Jesus Became God."

In addition to the writings of Paul (the earliest authentic ones) take a look at two other books in the New Testament that I think portray Jesus as a cosmic figure and not necessarily flesh and blood. 1. The book of Hebrews 2. The book of Revelation (in Revelation, the lamb is slain "before the creation of the world." So much for being crucified in Jerusalem.

I also find it interesting that even after the Christian religion gets up and running and people believe in a historical Jesus there were still variations arguing over whether he actually existed, whether he were just a phantom and appeared to be crucified, etc. John was written to counter some of the gnostic stuff going around I think.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 09:22AM

Other than a few ancient "pearls of wisdom" purported taught by a man known as Jesus of Nazareth, what does it matter whether he actually lived? He didn't present anything new including the need for a personal savior since there were about a dozen "saviors" preceding him.

The idea that someone took upon himself "the sins of the world" and, therefore, became our redeemer if we truly believe in him, is preposterous. I'm always amazed that someone like Jerald Tanner could clearly see the falsity of Mormonism, but can't likewise see the same in Christianity. After all, "once burned - twice warned"!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: HangarXVIII ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 04:49PM

Isn't it obvious? There is no evidence that Jesus ever existed other than the writings of a few lunatics-- which were written several decades later.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 05:52PM

Richard C. Carrier writes:

". . . I . . . here summarize the reasons for suspecting we’ve been wrong all along about how the Christian religion began. . . . [A]s Philip Davies recently said, 'a recognition that [Jesus’s] existence is not entirely certain would nudge Jesus scholarship towards academic respectability.'

"I think it is more likely that Jesus began in the Christian mind as a celestial being (like an archangel), believed or claimed to be revealing divine truths through revelations (and, by bending the ear of prophets in previous eras, through hidden messages planted in scripture). Christianity thus began the same way Islam and Mormonism did: by their principal apostles (Mohammed and Joseph Smith) claiming to have received visions from their religion’s 'actual' teacher and founder, in each case an angel (Gabriel dictated the Koran, MORONI PROVIDED THE BOOK OF MORMON).

"On this model, Christianity, as a Jewish sect, began when someone (most likely Cephas, perhaps backed by his closest devotees) claimed this 'Jesus' had at last revealed that he had tricked the Devil by becoming incarnate and being crucified by the Devil (in the region of the heavens ruled by Devil), thereby atoning for all of Israel’s sins so the Jerusalem temple cult no longer mattered, the sins of Israel could no longer hold back God’s promise and the end of the world could soon begin. On this theory, Christians did not go looking for proof-texts after their charismatic leader died, but actually conjured this angelic being’s salvific story from a pesher-like reading of scripture . . . .

"It would be several decades later when subsequent members of this [Christian] cult, after the world had not yet ended as claimed, started allegorizing the gospel of this angelic being by placing him in earth history as a divine man, as a commentary on the gospel and its relation to society and the Christian mission.

"The same had already been done to other celestial gods and heroes, who were being transported into earth history all over the Greco-Roman world, a process now called 'Euhemerization,' after the author Euhemerus, who began the trend in the 4th century B.C. by converting the celestial Zeus and Uranus into ordinary human kings and placing them in past earth history, claiming they were 'later' deified (in a book ironically titled 'Sacred Scripture'). Other gods then underwent the same transformation, from Romulus (originally the celestial deity Quirinus) to Osiris (originally the heavenly lord whom pharaohs claimed to resemble, he was eventually transformed into a historical pharaoh himself).

"Contrary to an oft-repeated myth in contemporary scholarship, before Christianity began both Romulus and Osiris were believed by their devotees to be slain deities subsequently resurrected to heavenly glory (as were many others of the type, from Zalmoxis to Dionysus to Adonis to Inanna), who now could bring glory or salvation to their followers. . . . [For example], each year Osiris descends and becomes incarnate and is slain not on earth, but in the lower heavens, and then rises from the dead and reascends to power in the upper heavens, having gained power over death by this cosmic ritual, which he then shares with his earthly devotees. In the earliest redaction we can reconstruct of the Ascension of Isaiah, this appears to be exactly what was imagined to happen for Jesus, only once for all, not yearly.[

"On this theory, when Paul says 'the scriptures' tell us that Jesus 'died' and 'was buried' and only then was he ever 'seen' by Cephas and the apostles (1 Cor. 15:3-5), he means exactly what he says. Just as in this and all other summaries of the gospel Paul provides, . . . there is no mention of a ministry, or of Jesus being seen by anyone (much less anyone taught and hand-picked by him in life), because these things did not yet exist in Christian conception. They would be allegorical fictions contrived later by the authors of the Gospels. . . . Paul wrote [that] the death and burial of Jesus were known only from hidden messages in scripture, just as Romans 16:25-26 says. . . . [T]his knowledge was facilitated by this Jesus then at last appearing to the apostles to inform them of all this, and what it meant. In fact, being thus visited by the celestial Christ is what secured one’s status as an apostle. . . .

"Just as Satan was declared the Archon 'of the powers of the air (Eph. 2:2) and the God “of this Age” (2 Cor. 4:4), so when Jesus is said to have been crucified by the 'Archons of this Age' (1 Cor. 2:8), we might be seeing what would later be described in the earliest redaction of the Ascension of Isaiah: a reference to Satan and his demons crucifying Jesus, not the Jews and Romans. And just as Adam was in some accounts buried in the heavens (as in chapter 40 of the Greek text of the 'Life of Adam and Eve'), so possibly was Jesus imagined to have been. The Incarnation, in a body of Davidic flesh, [and] still would have been imagined as necessary to fulfill scripture. But, as depicted in the Ascension of Isaiah, this would have happened in 'the sky.'

"This 'Jesus' would most likely have been the same archangel identified by Philo of Alexandria as already extant in Jewish theology. Philo knew this figure by all of the attributes Paul already knew Jesus by: the firstborn son of God, the celestial 'image of God,' and God’s agent of creation. . He was also God’s celestial high priest and God’s 'Logos.' And Philo says this being was identified as the figure named 'Jesus' in Zechariah 6.

"So, it would appear that already before Christianity there were Jews aware of a celestial being named 'Jesus' who had all of the attributes the earliest Christians were associating with their celestial being named Jesus. They, therefore, had no need of a historical man named 'Jesus.' All they needed was to imagine this celestial Jesus undergoing a heavenly incarnation and atoning death, in order to accomplish soteriologically what they needed, in order to no longer rely upon the Jewish temple authorities for their salvation.

"Such is the theory. Why might we conclude it’s the more likely explanation? Because the sequence of evidence aligns with it. As Bart Ehrman himself has recently confessed, the earliest documentation we have shows Christians regarded Jesus to be a pre-existent celestial angelic being.] Though Ehrman struggles to try and insist this is not how the cult began, it is hard to see the evidence any other way, once we abandon Christian faith assumptions about how to read the texts. The earliest Epistles only ever refer to Jesus as a celestial being revealing truths through visions and messages in scripture. There are no references in them to Jesus preaching (other than from heaven), or being a preacher, having a ministry, performing miracles, or choosing or having disciples, or communicating by any means other than revelation and scripture, or ever even being on earth. This is completely reversed in the Gospels. [These] were written decades later and are manifestly fictional. Yet, all subsequent historicity claims, in all subsequent texts, are based on those Gospels.

"We also have to remember that all other evidence from the first 80 years of Christianity's development was conveniently not preserved (not even in quotation or refutation). . . . [A] great deal more evidence was forged in its place (we know of over 40 Gospels, half a dozen Acts, scores of fake Epistles, wild legends and doctored passages). Thus, the evidence has passed through a very pervasive and destructive filter favoring the views of the later Church, in which it was vitally necessary to salvation to insist that Jesus was a historical man who really was crucified by Pontius Pilate (as we find obsessively insisted upon in the letters of Ignatius). Thus, to uncover the truth of how the [Christian] cult began, we have to look for clues, and not just gullibly trust the literary productions of the 2nd century.

"Jesus belongs to a fraternity of worshipped demi-gods peculiar to the Greco-Roman era and region. All were 'savior gods' (literally so called). They were all the 'son' of God (occasionally his 'daughter'). They all undergo a 'passion' (literally the same word in the Greek, 'patheôn'), which was some suffering or struggle (sometimes even resulting in death), through which they all obtain victory over death, which they share in some fashion with their followers. They all had stories about them set in human history on earth. Yet, none of them ever actually existed. Jesus can be shown to belong to several other typically mythical classes of person as well, unlike almost every other figure of antiquity (even the greatest of emperors and kings). These people were, more often than not, not historical. Yet, all were depicted as such in stories written by their believers. We cannot therefore simply declare Jesus the unusual exception. We need a reason. We need evidence. And when we look for it, it dissolves.

"No evidence outside the Bible can be shown to be based on anything but the Gospels or Christian testimony derived from the Gospels. And inside the Bible we have:

"(1) forgeries (which, being fake, cannot count as evidence);

"(2) the earliest Epistles that seem strangely silent or ambiguous as to the earthly existence of Jesus; and

"(3) the most suspiciously mythical Gospels. Not exactly good evidence to go by.

"Of course, there is much to debate. When Paul twice refers to 'Brothers of the Lord,' does he mean biological kin, or baptized Christians (who were all Brothers of the Lord: Rom. 8:15-29)?

"When Paul says Jesus 'came to be' (genomenos) from the 'sperm of David, ' does he mean descended from David, or manufactured by God, literally from the sperm of David?

"When Paul says Jesus 'came to be' ('genomenos') 'from a woman,' does he mean literally, or allegorically (as in Gal. 4:24)?

"When Paul says Jesus was 'tempted in every way,' does he mean as an ordinary man, or merely resisting the temptation to seize absolute divine power (as in Phil. 2:5-9)?

"When Paul says Jesus was 'declared' the 'Son of God in power' from his resurrection, is he referring to a post-hoc rationalization of a cult leader’s death, or to God’s heavenly re-bestowment of a humbled archangel’s prior status?

"We need to ask these questions because the old way of looking at the evidence does not fit so well as has been thought. And even among secular scholars, this has, until now, been driven by Christian faith assumptions, rather than [by] a new and genuinely objective look at what the evidence tells us.

"When we look, instead, without those assumptions [and, instead, at the possiblity] that Christianity may have been started by a revealed Jesus rather than a historical Jesus, [we see that this] is corroborated by at least three things:

"[T]he sequence of evidence shows precisely that development from celestial revealed Jesus in the Epistles, to a historical ministry in the Gospels decades later),

"[A]ll similar savior cults from the period have the same backstory (a cosmic savior, later historicized); and

"[T]he original Christian Jesus (in the Epistles of Paul) sounds exactly like the Jewish archangel Jesus, who certainly did not exist.

"So. when it comes to a historical Jesus, maybe we no longer need that hypothesis."

("Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt: Should We Still Be Looking for a Historical Jesus?," by Richard Carrier, 29 August 2014, emphasis added, at: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/5730)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: WestBerkeleyFlats ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 07:06PM

"Of course, there is much to debate. When Paul twice refers to 'Brothers of the Lord,' does he mean biological kin, or baptized Christians (who were all Brothers of the Lord: Rom. 8:15-29)?

"When Paul says Jesus 'came to be' (genomenos) from the 'sperm of David, ' does he mean descended from David, or manufactured by God, literally from the sperm of David?

"When Paul says Jesus 'came to be' ('genomenos') 'from a woman,' does he mean literally, or allegorically (as in Gal. 4:24)?

"When Paul says Jesus was 'tempted in every way,' does he mean as an ordinary man, or merely resisting the temptation to seize absolute divine power (as in Phil. 2:5-9)?

"When Paul says Jesus was 'declared' the 'Son of God in power' from his resurrection, is he referring to a post-hoc rationalization of a cult leader’s death, or to God’s heavenly re-bestowment of a humbled archangel’s prior status?

In every case, the much more plausible explanation is that Paul meant that Jesus was first mortal. For example,
"When Paul says Jesus 'came to be' (genomenos) from the 'sperm of David, ' does he mean descended from David, or manufactured by God, literally from the sperm of David?" it is infinitely more plausible to believe that means that Jesus was said to be descended from David.

After all, the expectation concerning the imminent coming of the Kingdom of God was that it would be an earthly kingdom that would restore Israel's former supposed glory and establish God's will on earth. The model for the messiah, who was always human in Jewish tradition, was David, the warrior-king who supposedly first established the kingdom of Israel as God's agent. All of Carrier's talk about atoning sacrifice is extremely anachronistic.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 07:11PM

. . . to the allegedly historically mortal Jesus.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 06:00PM

Myths simply do not usually grow up that fast and certainly not in the small area where the mythical person supposedly lived only a decade or two before. Don't give Moroni as an example. He supposedly lived in a rather undefined area nearly two millenia before JS and appeared only to JS as an angel. Kind of hard to check on that. With Jesus living in a tiny town about thirty years before Pul wrote and with his contemporaries, friends and family still around, checking would be easy

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 06:17PM

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Myths simply do not usually grow up that fast and
> certainly not in the small area where the mythical
> person supposedly lived only a decade or two
> before. Don't give Moroni as an example. He
> supposedly lived in a rather undefined area nearly
> two millenia before JS and appeared only to JS as
> an angel. Kind of hard to check on that. With
> Jesus living in a tiny town about thirty years
> before Pul wrote and with his contemporaries,
> friends and family still around, checking would be
> easy

No need to appeal to "Moroni."
Myths DO grow up that fast. And in the place the mythical person supposedly lived. And even in relatively modern times:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum

You've assumed there was a "Jesus" with "friends and family," and use that to try to prove there was a "Jesus." That's circular. You can't use the myth to prove itself. If "Jesus" didn't exist, there wouldn't be any "friends and family" to check with. And that wouldn't have bothered anyone at the time who wanted to believe -- they weren't exactly critical thinkers who validated claims by research.

Notice that "Paul" doesn't mention, in any of his letters, checking up on the "Jesus" story. Not once. He has a "vision," and that's it. He's a believer. He may or may not have met a "brother" of supposed "Jesus" (James), but he was a believer long before that occurred, so it had no effect on his belief.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 06:21PM by ificouldhietokolob.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 06:22PM

John Frum didnt live one town over so it is not the same thing . Besides I used the word usually. As usual you missed the point.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 06:24PM

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Frum didnt live one town over so it is not
> the same thing . Besides I used the word usually.
> As usual you missed the point.

It's still an argument from incredulity. I gave evidence that myths DO grow up "that fast." Frum was said to have lived *among* the very people that made up the story, less than "one town over." That isn't the only example. Your claim was refuted -- you're the one who missed the point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 06:25PM by ificouldhietokolob.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 20, 2014 06:29PM

You understand the word "usually" and that my main point was that myths dont grow up in a small area where the person and his relatives were supposed to have lived just a few short years ago and WHERE ANYONE WITH HALF A BRAIN COULD CHECK?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 06:47PM by bona dea.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.