I don't really believe the truth claims of Mormonism anymore, but I still feel like Mormonism is my tribe.

I'm as apostate as they come, but I can't seem to separate myself from my Mormon identity. I'm not sure I want to separate myself from my Mormon identity.

Does anyone else feel the same way?

No. It's definitely not my tribe because I don't want to be in a tribe of people who lie and take advantage of me and make me feel terrible about myself.

But plenty of people do feel like you, and want to stay in the tribe. Many of them identify as New Order Mormons.
They don't believe what the church says, but they stay a part of it for some reason - and there are lots of reasons.

I guess the trick is to figure out exactly what it is about the Mormon identity that you WANT to keep.
Do you want to maintain church activity? How much? What are your reasons for staying Mormon?

In answer to your questions:

No, I don't want to maintain church activity.

I do not believe that one must maintain church activity, or even believe Mormon doctrine, to identify as Mormon.

I want to remain Mormon because of my Mormon heritage.

MyTribe,

You said "I do not believe that one must maintain church activity, or even believe Mormon doctrine, to identify as Mormon."

Do you realize how silly that sounds?

I think you are misunderstanding some of the more subtle aspects of a person's culture. It isn't silly at all.

In fact, it is much sillier to think that the world is so black and white.

Nope, not my tribe. I never fit in. I was never liked. When I see members of my former ward I get a combination of sick and angry. Nope, not my tribe.

Interview with a Native American author, Sherman Alexie
http://billmoyers.com/segment/sherman-alexie-on-living-outside-borders/

He says we all have a tribe. Tribalism is a force of human nature, so he says.

It's a fascinating topic I could go on forever

We all yearn for community, to be in a "little group." It is the strongest human yearning

I never really fit in with the Mormon tribe; I want individuality too much for their comfort. (Unfortunately I also tend to make an ass of myself too often to fit in with most groups. See some of my posts on this site for examples.)

I'm also one who never fit in with the Mormon tribe, so it just wasn't my tribe at all. I'm one of those feminists the tribe doesn't like, plus I'm sensitive in certain areas to the point where I need cotton underwear, so I could never wear the tribal clothing known as garments.

One of the most gratifying aspects of my life, among so much displeasure as I look back on my tenure in the MORmON cult is that I really NEVER was one of them. I NEVER could really LIE enough to really be a MORmON. I never could be THAT phony. I NEVER was really one of them. And as a testament to that, I do not miss those stupid pretentious MORmON @$$holes and the MORmON routine at all, not ever.

Mormonism is sexist, deceitful, delusional, manipulative, a gigantic time suck, and the tribal dues are way way too high for what they deliver.

My tribe? I can do better. There's a reason a large majority of converts leave.

I can do nothing about my blood, but I can follow my conscience. It leads me away from them.

Stay the way you are until you feel you've changed. Personal integrity is overrated.

No.

I grew up in a place where mormons were the minority, then I moved to Utah and went to BYU, I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there, I found the culture strange and stifling. I love my family, and some other mormons, but no, mormons aren't my tribe.

I used to feel that way when I first left the Church, but it wore off over time.

these feelings shall pass...

I NEVER fit in. My family never fit in. I did my best to fit in. I'm not entirely sure where I fit in, but it for sure was not Mormonism.

Talking to one my mother's friends and my mother's sister in the last week or so--over the top Mormons for all my life, listening to them talk on and on about the temple, genealogy, and multiple other things, I walked away thinking, "THANK whomever I'm out of there." Yep, I want to spend my retirement working in the temple. NO THANK YOU.

My parents were NEVER like that.

You're already in a good tribe here. I've found the LDS to be actively, passively and cunningly oppressive to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 10:06AM by rid.

I grew up mormon; I can't go back and grow up some other way.

I've been out of the church since the 70s, but if there were a mormon reservation, with mormon casinos, I'd qualify to work there, and qualify for a cut of the profits.

It felt like my tribe the same way an infant who was kidnapped by another tribe does. It was all I knew, but I didn't feel like I really belonged there. I observed the customs, wore the same clothing, did the rituals, spoke the words, but...

Then I left for "the world." THAT instantly felt like my tribe.

Nope not mine. The funny thing is, to make excuses for why we leave, you will always hear them repeat the misconception that some individual 'offended' us in someway. No, it is the Doctrine that is so extremely offensive. It is difficult to maintain even a social relationship with true believers of this doctrine.

But, I do have a couple of Morg friends (all of whom I met after I escaped) and they are fantastic people. So, I do maintain some contact with individuals, but completely outside the social structure.

It isn't, & never was, even though I'm BIC.

I think a huge part of that is that I'm not from the Morridor.

My bloodline goes straight through the Morridor, through Nauvoo, and Kirtland to Palmyra. But I was born in gentile lands, so that must have been my problem. ;^)

In my TBM days, I was a home teacher to a sister who made it clear that she was not coming to church again EVER. ! She did not want anyone to call on her. She would not pay tithing, or want any church publications sent to her ..

**HOWEVER SHE DEMAMDED THAT HER NAME MUST BE LEFT ON THE CHURCH RECORDS,JUST IN CASE THE MORMON CHURCH WAS TRUE**

JB

Just browsing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> **HOWEVER SHE DEMAMDED THAT HER NAME MUST BE LEFT
> ON THE CHURCH RECORDS,JUST IN CASE THE MORMON
> CHURCH WAS TRUE**
>
> JB


I JOINED just in case the church was true.

As an investigator I told the missionaries that since they believe that people are taught the gospel on the other side after they die that I would wait and be taught on the other side rather than join.

They said, "But you have already been taught the gospel and you will not have another opportunity to be taught, and therefore you will not be granted the fullest blessings of eternity." So I joined "just in case".

I left the church 14 years later but didn't have my name removed. Nineteen years later when I found RfM I requested my name be
removed from the records.

I don't worry in the least anymore about "just in case".

My genetics are mixed with every European country represented along with an American Indian tribe. The Mormon ancestors go back to the very beginning when Joe fooled them into joining. So that's my history if not my "tribe."

Mormonism isn't a tribe. A tribe, generally, is a group that shares similar ancestry and cultural traditions. One might argue that Utah Mormonism has certain tribal elements to it, but the cultural and ethnic diversity still disqualify it from the title of "tribe."

Mormonism is a corporation, in its practices and its legal designation. It is also a religion and a social group with its own set of rules of behavior and personality requirements, some explicit and some implicit. This is true of all social groups. This does not make it a tribe.

I don't feel any kinship with Mormons. I never fit into the Mormon mold. I don't blindly follow authority and never have. I didn't accept the racist and sexist doctrines and practices of the church or Mormon society. I was never interested in stature. I valued study and debate over intuition. I had intellectual integrity.

I'd have to disagree. Mormonism is definitely a tribe. Here is the definition:

"a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader."

Mormonism, and Mormon culture, fits every single one of those points to one degree or another. Mormonism is definitely a tribe, and at an even more granular level, the different pockets of Mormons living in the Morridor as well as the different offshoots of Mormonism also qualify as tribes.

Now, the Mormon church as an organization is definitely a corporation and a business. There is no doubt about that.

That definition is too broad to be entirely accurate, because it allows for virtually anything to be labeled as a tribe, rendering the word effectively meaningless. "Tribe" has historically had a much more specific application, referring to groups with strong genetic links and cultural elements that dramatically distinguish the group from those on the outside. Relatively few Mormons outside of the Morridor share a common ancestry, and the cultural traditions of their particular geographic locations still dramatically influence belief and behavior, perhaps as much as much as their affiliation with Mormonism.

Yes, there are cultural peculiarities unique to Mormon culture, but they aren't nearly universal to all Mormons. A ward in Provo is likely to be quite different from one in Santa Cruz (a fact for which I can attest), and a branch in Kenya may be dissimilar to one in Tokyo or Tonga.

Mormons don't share a common language. They don't share a common culture. Even their beliefs are quite varied, despite what Correlation would like us to believe.

The fact that Mormonism is a worldwide religion disqualifies it from being a tribe. It possesses too much cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity to be called tribal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 02:42PM by En Sabah Nur.

Yeah, I see what you are saying. Would you consider Utah-Mormons tribe like then?

Tribe-like, yes, but not technically a tribe. Within Utah I'd say Mormonism is the dominant culture, but within a broader context I'd call it an American religious sub-culture.

I prefer precise terminology.

So do I, but I remain unconvinced that tribe couldn't be used to refer to Mormons in parts of the Morridor. Your point about the Mormon church being a world religion and therefore not able to be called a tribe makes a lot of sense though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 07:10PM by snb.

I get the feeling the past 5 generations of Mormons in my family never would have had a GD thing to do with Joseph's Myth, had they known the pervert stole other men's wives after sending them away on missions overseas, and raped little girls, because he had the power to do so.
It's an abusive CULT that is still victimizing many.
It's more abusive than the Catholics.
Why would I choose the most sexist, racist, homophobic, exploitative, doomsday CULT on the planet as my tribe, when there are 35,000 other sects of Christianity alone that don't require you to sing the praises of a pervert no better than Warren Jeffs?
Think about what example you're setting for your children and fugure generations.

Absolutely not. I never fit in. I never really fit into my family of origin. I have a new community I chose to be a part of. My husband and I love it. People genuinely care about us for who we are and don't expect us to fit a certain mold to be "worthy".

Most of the posters have expressed strong feelings of alienation from LDS (religion) and Mormonism (culture), and thus reject the LDS/Mormonism affinity. What we're dealing with here is very personal, subjective -- and powerful.

Tribal (or clan) identity and loyalties run strong with many (perhaps most) people. They may well over-rule other loyalties and beliefs. Thus, many people remain loyal to LDS, if only by appearances, while harboring doubts and worse. How many times have you read a poster who says, "I can't believe any more, but my family, my friends, my community, my job...how can I just give all up?"

Allow me an analogy, which may be controversial, on how tribalism can over-rule other loyalities. I have heard urban blacks bemoan the problems of crime in their communities. But as I cop I have had to investigate and search for suspects in minority neighborhoods--black suspects. Even though the victims are (usually) also black, the local population closes ranks and refuses to cooperate with us, since they have to "protect their own" and cops (even black cops) are regarded as their natural adversaries. Getting them to testify, on-scene or in court, is a real problem. Thus, tribal loyalties supercede (1) their own community interests and (2) their ethical standards.

Decades ago, this was true of immigrant Italian culture (& the Mafia) and the Irish (& Irish gangsterism). But generations of assimilation have pretty much eliminated such intense "we look after our own" protective loyalities. If this is happening with black urban culture, it is a glacially slow development.

Mormon clan loyalty (reinforced with economic and ecclesiastical power) explains many things, such as Mormons' willingness to lie to non-LDS, covering up family abuse, sexual exploitation, and the reluctance of RfM lurkers to come forward and make the break.

For all of you who HAVE broken the bondage of clan identity and loyalty: my sincere congratulations. But I think it is a strong impediment for many.

Fuck no!

But hey, if you think you identify with racists, sexists and anti-anything-straight and heteronormative mormons, then you should probably stay with your kind.

Who knows why people who know they don't fit in come here to play games. Devil's advocate being a favorite, of course. That game is only suitable for playing with those who consent to "play"; don't play games with those who aren't here to play but are here to recover.
I'm always glad to hear TSCC didn't scar someone as deeply as it did me, but when it is a GAME to pick at my wounds, you damn well bet you don't belong to my group.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 01:32PM by WinksWinks.

The "identity" part of your argument, especially coming from when I was younger and active in the church, is hard to deny. I was a Mormon through my major formative years, and while I don't act Mormon or associate much with Mormons now, it is undeniably a part of who I am.

When I was younger I was a part of that tribe, both in the larger sense of being a part of Mormonism as well as a lesser sense of being a part of the ward in the neighborhood I used to live in, or being a missionary in a country with other missionaries who believed in and thought about the same things I did.

Now that I'm older and I have years and years separating myself from Mormonism I don't feel the slightest bit a part of that tribe. I don't feel like I belong in the exmo tribe as well because of how fundamentally different I am from most of the people here. However, I have a very close group of friends and my own family and I identify strongly with them. Those folks are my tribe.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 01:22PM by snb.

No.
I'm the former tribe member who got out of a dishonest, ridiculous, harmful tribe that harms its own members, and stands and points and laughs at the old tribe.
I'm comfortable with that position.

MyTribe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not
> sure I want to separate myself from my Mormon
> identity.

What is your definition of Mormon identity? Attending all your meetings? Paying 10 percent of your income? Going to the temple to do work for dead people?

I actually don't even consider it a tribe. That puts too much of a benign spin on an organization that does a lot of damage and is dishonest at its core.

I like to think I have broadened my understanding, my empathy, and my knowledge just enough to feel comfortable with almost anyone in any situation. I can find common ground with almost anyone. But in the end, I am way too introverted to belong to any tribe at all.

My life is a conglomerate now--a number of different things or parts that are put or grouped together to form a whole but remain distinct entities--and mormonism is just one of the entities. I'm good with it being there as it is in its proper place at last: something from the past that gives perspective for the future.

I'm going to be in the minority here, but in many ways I agree with you. It is a culture that I grew up in and I still love the people and the service-oriented teachings. Can you still do these things outside of the church? Of course. But generally I do enjoy the community, the music, etc. In some ways, I think that I'll always be Mormon.

Now, that said, I do not agree with the judgemental part of the church. And the church was/is on the wrong side of many social issues.

I've only been out about a year though, and I think that I'll agree with "breedumyung". In time, it will fade. I will say this... it's amazing how people open up to me once they find out that I'm exmo. It's suprising to find out what many people really think of Mormons... and it's not all that great.

Posters seem to think if they don't like the Mormon church culture, it isn't tribe-like. There have always been members of tribes who were mistreated. Those victims were unlikely to feel good about their tribe.

I did not like being a Mormon. In fact I hated it. Still, it is the culture I was born into and it did dominate my live and still does influence it. I don't have another tribe.

I do have friends and associates, neighbors and congenial coworkers, venders, and recovery exmo pen pals and meet-up buddies. I wouldn't call that conglomeration very tribe-like.

I say this with all seriousness. I feel like ex-Mormons are my tribe.

I now live in California and most of friends are never Mormon. They are great but I feel like I don't completely identify with them. I still have quite a few ex-Mormon friends in Utah and scattered through CA and I feel like I most identify with these people.

I still feel like I have a shade of Mormon identity but I want nothing to do with the believing side of it. There are aspects of the Mormon culture I miss and I feel like with ex-Mormons I get a that part without all the garbage. And I feel like there's kind of a kinship there. We can discuss the church and our upbringing openly and honestly.

A cult is not a tribe--seek out some new friends that you identify with in other areas besides religion. Find a hiking group, biking group, art interest, music, writing group--the list is endless. That is how the rest of the normal world works these days!

It was never mine. I just went along for the ride, as a kid. As soon as I hit puberty, I lost interest. When I went to Ricks and was immersed into Mormonism 24/7 for the first time (I grew up in a rural community and was the only Mormon kid in my school classes), I knew I was an outsider. There is nothing about LDS culture that I embraced or that I miss.

Ron Burr

Which means Mormonism can not be my tribe.

Mormonism rejects your sexuality. For me, Mormonism makes it very clear for homosexuals. Leave. Only lately have they even attempted to double-speak their way out of this issue.

Prior to post Yes on 8 issues, they openly reviled against homosexuals and homosexuality.

Now they do their soft-voiced puke speech on this issue. Saying that homosexuality exists, but shouldn't exist, and that those with the burden of being homosexual should embrace their tribe's values and ignore their sexuality, because the Mormon tribe values are more valuable for eternity than a homosexual's present.

My thoughts. Homosexuals are not welcome in Mormonism and homosexuals are encouraged to leave Mormonism.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 04:54PM by gentlestrength.

I think first time poster MyTribe is putting forward one of the solutions for the LDS corporation.

Many of those that leave aren't necessarily needed and are considered needy nuisances.

A major reason why people leave Mormonism is alienation or not fitting in socially, they Google on the Internet and find non-social issues.

Thus they are a former Mormon and they have a reason other than not being desired by the tribe or excusing their unwillingness or inability to normalize with the Mormon tribe.

If they fit in better, they never would have Googled or would have apologized for what they found on Google.

There are many people who leave Mormonism who did fit in, who may have been the poster for Mormonism, but felt or found the fraud.

Those are people for whom Mormonism may have been their tribe, but were repulsed by their tribe.

Better question, what do you do when you find out your tribe is a fraud and an abusive bully?

You leave and when you need to you growl and when provoked you bite.

I like the above post by SeekingPeace that a cult is not a tribe. I would add though, what about a cult that has reproduced over eight generations and selected in and selected out those qualities that support the cult. They become tribal. Mormon moms and dads reward their children that follow the Mormon plan and alienate the children that do not. Some children kill themselves for having sex before marriage or even thoughts of homosexual sex. Selection, adaptation, and although too early, evolution. For this reason, the BIC to BIC to BIC cycle is horrifying. We see it played out over time in Islam by Muslims, especially in states where Islam is also the social and political law.

Being a Mormon is a lifestyle choice. A bad lifestyle choice, especially in clearer light. There are better choices.

Just like other fundamentalist tribes. The biochemistry and genetics that have adapted to reward fundamentalist tribal behavior and punish non-fundamentalist tribal behavior have made it difficult to adapt after leaving.

That doesn't justify not leaving a tribe of asses that feel comfortable with being and believing problematic things.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2014 05:36PM by gentlestrength.

Mormonism is the dumb-ass religion my parents joined. I absolutely never felt connected to the culture. Even as a child the Utahans I knew growing up in the morg seemed parochial in their thinking.

I am born, raised, and continue to live in Minnesota. Those are my peeps. We have our own brand of dysfunctional parochial thinking ;-). That's the one I'm comfortable with and feel connected to. I am fourth generation Minnesotan and blood is indeed thicker than the Mormon water.

I followed Mormonism only to the degree I thought it was True (that's true with a capital "T"). I figured just because it was true didn't necessarily mean I'd like it, like perhaps it was also some kind of a test Mormon God was throwing at me at the same time.

My father's current wife is multi-generational Mormon and while she is a person of fine character, I don't really care for all the Mormon cultural trappings of her extended Mormon family. My father is getting near to the end of his life and as when he passes, I am 99% sure she'll probably ask someone to drop her off at the airport on the way home from the funeral. That Utah culture is strong stuff, but then isn't everyone's?

mrtranquility Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That
> Utah culture is strong stuff, but then isn't
> everyone's?

But it smells strongly of a dirty pasture. I prefer to avoid trampling over generations of my Mormon sheep droppings. The smell is not so uniform when I'm not surrounded by Mormons.

Hell no, fuck no, and furthermore I don't feel part of any tribe, thanks to Mormonism. I'd explain, but I'm also presently struggling with the Mormon church of jobs--you know, the one where you can never be good enough--and it'll just bum me out worse than I already am.