Do you think Moses existed? Why or why not?

Do you think Abraham existed? Why or why not?

Do you think Mithras existed? Why or why not?

I exist therefore I am God.

I think therefore I spam.

I have no idea about the past existence of almost all people Moses. Abraham, and Mithras included.

Although I think Mithras has less existence nowadays because people don't believe in him much.

Santa Claus has the most existence (more than Moses and Abraham) excepting Jesus only in The Western World.

Mythras, of course not. The other two, no. They were part of a continuing narrative imagined by the Israelites to feel better about themselves after repeatedly getting their butts kicked.

When one considers how much of the early biblical stories are just lifted from the much older Sumerian texts.

Moses, Abraham, etc. Its at least as old as the Sumerians (2500BC and earlier)

Moses, of course, the Bible tells me so.

Abraham, of course, the Bible tells me so.

Mithras, of course not, the Bible doesn't tell me so.

**sarcasm included**

"The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum."

Havelock Ellis

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 06:51PM by steve benson.

...having been inspired by, and basing my non-belief system on the philosophy of Gregory House. My world is rocked, because I now realize that I am basing my life philosophy on a fictional character. It's gotten worse, actually. I have now discovered that Gregory House is not even an original fictional character. The Gregory House character was copied from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes. Gregory House is just a cheap rip off of an earlier fairy tale! Not only is House just a magic fable, it's a derivative magic fable!

Thanks a lot you guys for completely shattering my world.

Moses didn't exist. By extension the Exodus is only a legend. No historical/archeological background exists that corroborates a group of 60k+ people wondering the desert for 40 yrs; nor for that matter, slaves living in Egypt for 400 yrs.
Abraham? I know of no Jewish scholarly treatise sustaining that he existed. It was a legend brought in by a new group (Levites?), (Who Wrote the Bible)which conveniently has him staying behind so he needed no corroboration with the locals--just like the plates, they were taken by an angel.

Roaches... As per usual... Forcing people to hold thier myths to same standard that they hold thier own myths.

HH =)

I thought you were referring to the people upholding myths and it fit.

More crude, reductionistic thinking from Pack-man. It's possible that there is some historical antecedent for Moses although the Biblical account would be far removed from any historical events. Abraham would have to be viewed as even more of a legendary figure.

The obvious difference between Moses and Abraham and Jesus is that the Biblical accounts of the first two were written centuries after there supposed lives whereas the gospels were written decades after Jesus's life and in the lifetime of his contemporaries.

So we can no longer say that the Bible is a true story, but we don't want to banish it to the fiction section yet.

How about "Based on actual events"?

Or do we have to sink to "Inspired by actual events"?

How about humans trying to explain their world?

Then "speculative fiction"?

and it's possible that monkeys could fly out your ass.

Wake me up when you have evidence.

WestBerkeleyFlats Wrote:
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> The obvious difference between Moses and Abraham
> and Jesus is that the Biblical accounts of the
> first two were written centuries after there
> supposed lives whereas the gospels were written
> decades after Jesus's life and in the lifetime of
> his contemporaries.

Which, of course, has no bearing of any kind on whether the "gospels" are true or not. :)

Most excellent question, RPackham!!! :D


Mithras...no, I don't think he ever existed. :)

Abraham and Moses...I think with both (but Moses especially) it is analogous to the Iliad---there could be a kernel of historical truth (as we found out was the case in the late 1800s, when Schleiman found Homer's Troy)...or maybe not in either case.

My "worldview" changed significantly the day my sister was regressed. As with many people who decide to get regressed, she had a present, real life problem that she had been working on for most of her life, and had not yet been able to solve. And, as is also true for most people who get regressed, you tend to (first) go to the past lifetimes which are most "directly" impacting this one.

In my sister's case, she went IMMEDIATELY to a lifetime in a place, and a period of time, that cannot ever be known. So far as we could tell, she was fully our present species...but she was in a part of the world where her small community (maybe a few dozen people) was the "entirety" of the world she knew. One day, she went up a hillside to gather food and while she was gone, a flash flood wiped out her community. When she came back down the hillside, she found that she was "the last person left [on Earth]." Long story short: she eventually died from loneliness, despite the fact that she had adequate food and water, and sufficient shelter. But during those years where she was "the only person left [on Earth]," and right through her death in that life, she BELIEVED that she WAS "the only person [on Earth]" because she had no knowledge of any other human beings ANYWHERE.

In the years since, I have thought about what it would be like if she, plus two or three other people, had gone up that hillside that day, before the flash flood hit. What if there was a survivor or two BESIDES my sister, maybe at least a mating pair of people who could reproduce? Wouldn't the story they, or their offspring, might tell to SOME other human being that might happen by in subsequent years be about "the end of the world"? The time when THEIR ANCESTOR(S) were "the only people left [on Earth]?"

[Which is, more or less, the biblical Noah story of course.]

"Small things," like the wipe-out of a community whose total population was maybe 12, or 24, or 36...or a shooting star in the sky at a particularly opportune moment...or even someone who really lived and happened to be munching on the local psychedelics when God suddenly appeared...can lead to the Iliad...or to the Bible.

Although people may greatly misinterpret what they THINK they are living through, and the story may be garbled down the generations, once upon a real time, there MIGHT have been SOMEONE who "was the last person [on Earth]" or someone else who led some people on a jaunt which lasted "forty years," except that the recorded "forty years" would equate to maybe twenty-four months max of OUR reckoning of time as they moved from pasture-land to pasture-land (because even in the desert, there are oases; desert people depend on them).

Without Schleimann, and without my sister's regression, I would probably think something very different than I do now.

I'm not saying that "Moses" actually lived...and certainly not Abraham either.

But SOMEONE similar might have existed, and that someone (or someone else in that same group) may have told a story around a campfire that was passed on and has endured ever since.

And...

...on the other hand...

...the whole thing could well be a complete myth. Throughout human history myths were created, and continue to exist, because human beings seem to have an inborn need for them that parallels our needs to run, and to eat, and to have sex.

And throughout human history, it is obvious that longevity---even if it IS in the form of a myth or a legend---counts, too.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 10:04PM by tevai.

Let's not cherry pick.

Do you believe Adam and Eve existed? Why or why not?
Do you believe that there was a talking serpent? Why or why not?

Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Adam, Moses, etc. probably all existed they just didn't do or were all the things the bible says these people did/were!

from "Refuting Missionaries--Part I: The Myth of the Historical Jesus":

"The following mythological characters were all believed to have been born to divinely impregnated virgins: Romulus and Remus, Perseus, Zoroaster, Mithras, Osiris-Aion, Agdistis, Attis, Tammuz, Adonis, Korybas, Dionysus. The pagan belief in unions between gods and women, regardless of whether they were virgins or not, is even more common. Many characters in pagan mythology were believed to be sons of divine fathers and human females. The Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God born to a virgin, is typical of Greco-Roman superstition. The Jewish philosopher, Philo of Alexandria (c. 30 B.C.E - 45 C.E.), warned against the widespread superstitious belief in unions between male gods and human females which returned women to a state of virginity.

"The god Tammuz, worshipped by pagans in northern Israel, was said to have been born to the virgin Myrrha. The name 'Myrrha' superficially resembles "Mary/Miriam" and it is possible that this particular virgin birth story influenced the Mary story more than the others. Like Jesus, Tammuz was always called Adon, meaning 'Lord.' (The character Adonis in Greek mythology is based on Tammuz.)"

("Refuting Missionaries--Part I: The Myth of the Historical Jesus," by Hayyim ben Yehoshua, at: http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html)
_____

Thanks Richard!
I can hardly wait for 'Bona Dea' to argue this one...

Seventhson Wrote:
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> Thanks Richard!
> I can hardly wait for 'Bona Dea' to argue this
> one...

We are still waiting for her to present more evidence then "Read B. Erhman" mantra she repeats time and again.

Seventhson Wrote:
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> Thanks Richard!
> I can hardly wait for 'Bona Dea' to argue this one...

Actually, I was thinking specifically of Bona Dea when I posted. I am hoping she will argue similarly for the existence of Moses and Abraham as for Jesus:

"Of course they existed! Because you can't tell me who would have invented them and why they would have done so! Therefore they existed!"

I should repeat what I have said several times: as far as Jesus is concerned, it does not matter to me whether a man named Jesus existed in 1st century Palestine who was a Jewish reformer executed by the Romans for treason. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. It doesn't matter to me.

In response to her frequent "read Bart Ehrman!" I will suggest that she read just a few of the most recent of the several hundred books in this bibliography:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/scholars.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2014 11:39AM by RPackham.

I dont know if they existed in some form or are truly myth. It is too long ago and there is no evidence. If they did exist, the story is widely exaggerated.For Jesus there are near contemporary sources and good indirect evidence. I agree with WBF. I also think the Jesus story had a lot of myth added

Richard, I have read that website and it is nonsense. I have also.read Freke and Gandy and others. Unlike you, I have read both sides and, in addition, have a background in ancient history. BTW. I do not particularly appreciate the sarcasm from you and WIW.When you want to have a serious discussion,minus sarcasm,let me know



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2014 11:51AM by bona dea.

bona dea Wrote:
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> BTW. I do not particularly appreciate the sarcasm
> from you and WIW.When you want to have a serious
> discussion,minus sarcasm,let me know


Yeah.

All that is nothing more than in-group/out-group, majority/minority, etc stuff. Group-think is powerful and exists in and out of mormonism, it's everywhere people congregate. And I'm not talking about agreeing/disagree/discussion, we're all for that. But the emotion-laden tag-ons are what I think Carrots Tomatoes and Radishes was getting at. Don't sweat it too much, bona dea. Everyone is in recovery, and this place would be stagnant and boring if minority opinions weren't expressed. So cheers to you, and thank you for your posts.

Human

Thanks. I enjoy your posts too and would love to have a rational discussion with listers on this subject,without sarcasm,insults etc. Unfortunately,that seems impossible.

bona dea Wrote:
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> ...and would love to
> have a rational discussion with listers on this
> subject,without sarcasm,insults etc.
> Unfortunately,that seems impossible.

And I would enjoy reading it.

Ya gotta admit though, despite protestations to the contrary, there is still a lot of emotion built up around the large subject of Hebrew and Christian texts. Some posters have been battling these "triggers" for years, even decades. Cult power extends well beyond our leaving, alas.

I know that is true,but I just dont know why it is so important for some to deny the existence of Jesus.Believing that he was historical in no way means you have to believe in him anymore than JS's existence requires you to be a Mormon or belive he saw God.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Richard, I have read that website and it is
> nonsense. I have also.read Freke and Gandy and
> others. Unlike you, I have read both sides and, in
> addition, have a background in ancient history.
> BTW. I do not particularly appreciate the sarcasm
> from you and WIW.When you want to have a serious
> discussion,minus sarcasm,let me know

Dear Bona Dea,

You do not read very well. I did not recommend "that website" - I recommended the BIBLIOGRAPHY that he compiled.

Also, to label something as "nonsense" out-of-hand, something that contains quite a few well-reasoned arguments based on lack of pro-Jesus evidence, shows a lack of seriousness in an academic discussion.

You seem to think I have not read "both sides"? I assure you that I have. Would you like a list of the more than two dozen books I have read that are biographies of Jesus (who obviously, in their belief) existed?

I, too, have a background in ancient history, although I cannot boast of an academic degree in that subject. I'm afraid I forget what history degree you hold.

I was not aware that I was being sarcastic. I was being dead serious.

And finally, PLEASE note my repeated comment that, as far as the existence of a man Jesus as described in the Gospels, I AM AGNOSTIC! See, specifically, my webpage "What About Jesus?" at http://packham.n4m.org/jesus.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2014 03:12PM by RPackham.

Why stop there?

Do you think Epicurus existed? Why or why not?

Do you think Zeno existed? Why or why not?

Do you think Socrates existed? Why or why not?

I exist, therefore I believe.

RPackham Wrote:
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> Do you think Moses existed? Why or why not?

Got me, but it's not likely. No evidence he did, archeological evidence shows the "Hebrew captivity in Egypt" never occurred, the "exodus" never occurred, and that the "Hebrews" became a separate group in-place in Canaan, they didn't come from Egypt and take it over. Finally, the Moses stories all come from post-Babylonian exile Jews, who likely made a heroic back-story for themselves to consolidate "priestly" authority.

>
> Do you think Abraham existed? Why or why not?
Got me, but it's not likely. No evidence he did, the stories are contradicted by archeological and genetic evidence, and contain anachronisms, showing them more likely a later hero-story concoction. While there may be some ancient oral "tradition" behind them, there's no way to tell what that was, or how much of that was factual.

>
> Do you think Mithras existed? Why or why not?


Got me, but it's not likely. No evidence he did. And the Mithras stories contain many of the same elements as the Jesus stories.

Actually we dont know enough about Mithras to be confident about the details of the story because it was a mystery religion and its followers were sworn to secrecy. Most of what we know is from artifacts which can be misinterpreted.

Enough of all this mythology! We now know that survivors from a ragtag fleet, fleeing the Cylon tyranny, and lead by Battlestar Galactica, interbred with early humans about 500,000 years ago. There's your gods mixing with men story.

Get your facts straight, skinjobs.....