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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 02:08AM

I've read some on quantum mechanics, but make no claim to any depth.

With that in mind, I've always been fascinated by the role observation plays in the behavior of matter. Simply put, matter behaves differently when it's observed than when it's not. And even more strangely, experiments set in motion without observation will change outcome historically when observation is added during the experiment. Mind blowing to me.

One intrepid theist has put together an interesting presentation in this video showing an argument that points toward theistic creation with this foundation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM

Listen for the mainstream physicists saying things like, "Consciousness determines existence."

If you watch the video and have some feedback, I'd like to hear it.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 02:31AM

The federal courts have already dispensed with the basic creationist-centered pseudo-science of so-called "Intelligent Design" (and they've properly done so without even having had to address quantum mechanics, since fundamental operational mechanics of organic evolution have long been observed, meticulously quantified and empirically explained through the application of vigorously-tested and impressively-validated scientific methodology):

“Until the middle of the 20th century, teaching the theory of evolution was forbidden by law in many states. When challenged on First Amendment grounds, these laws were found to be in violation of the establishment clause and were rescinded. After a series of unsuccessful attempts to reinstate the teaching of creationism in American public schools, many Old Earth Creationists re-branded themselves proponents of \’Intelligent Design,’ intending to mask their religious agenda.

“Kitzmiller v. Dover was the first court case to test the teaching [of] Intelligent Design in the classroom. Judge John E. Jones III ruled that ‘Intelligent Design is not science, and . . . cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious antecedents.’ This ruling was based on testimony from leading scientists in the field and in part on the Discovery Institute’s ]Wedge Document,' whose stated goal was 'to defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies' and 'to replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.'"

(“An Introduction to Creationism," at; http://skepticsonthe.net/an-introduction-to-creationism)


I have a very good friend who is a deep-thinking, professional, internationally-respected physicist and who has served as dean of a physics department at the university level. We’ve talked about "the role observation plays in the behavior of matter" (with focus on the idea that there really is no such thing as a neutral observer since observations of phenomena invariably influence the phenomenon being observed). While this is a "fascinating" subject, indeed, my physicist friend remains a logically-rooted, empirically-centered atheist. Invoking quantum mechanics is simply another backdoor way for disingenuous theistic creationists to slip their brand of "God" into the picture in order to covertly advance an agenda of personal religious superstition.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 07:51AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 02:31AM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 02:52AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 02:52AM

All very interesting, Steve. As I stated in my post, I was encouraging replies to the actual video.

I'd love to hear any specific feedback you have on the actual sources and information cited in the video. You are certainly free to create a new topic with your opinions about Intelligent Design. That is not the topic of this post nor the video. If you do wish to get involved in this topic, please note it's about seeking feedback on a video about quantum mechanics, the implications that observation and consciousness play in results, and the problems of materialism. It's not about the merits of injecting ID in our schools.

But I am very happy for you that you have an atheist friend who is a physicist.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 02:57AM

"Intelligent design" (a souped-up cover for "creationism") was--and is--a stupid ploy, with or without quantum physics. Religionists are simply throwing whatever they can, in the name of their "God Behind the Curtain," against the wall and hoping something sticks. Now it's quantum physics. Earth to earnest believers: That gimmick won't work, either.

As for "happy," you won't be until you can convince yourself that science "proves" the existence of "God." That's a job for Sunday School, where science fails to rule.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 03:06AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 03:09AM

That intrepid theist doesn't understand quantum mechanics, either.
Simply stated, it's not "observation" that affects quantum systems -- it's interaction. So any other matter or energy can be the "observer" that perturbs quantum states. No intelligence or person or "observer" is needed. And no "creator" is implied or required.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 03:11AM

The mere act of "observing" affects the "force field," if you will, at the quantum level. But for some folks, it's way cooler to throw "The Big Sky Daddy" into the mix. It helps mortal humans feel cared for in a rough, survival-of-the-fittest world.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 03:17AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 03:24AM

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The mere act of "observing" affects the "force
> field," if you will, at the quantum level. But
> for some folks, it's way cooler to throw "The Big
> Sky Daddy" into the mix. It helps mortal humans
> feel cared for in a rough, survival-of-the-fittest
> world.


This would be so much simpler if you actually watched the video. It mostly contains interviews with physicists -- many of whom are atheists I imagine.

You're wrong on this one too, Steve. The Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment is one of the world's most mind bending. Science has shown something that appears to transcend time. Specifically, observation after the start of the experiment effects events prior to observation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 03:28AM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 03:27AM

. . . your critics that they're wrong.

Straight out of your go-to Sunday School playbook, I see.

Now, show us how "God" is driving the quantum physics.

Define "God" first, please.

Is "God," to use your words, "something that appears to transcend time"?

If so, how does that make this "something" into "God"?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 03:32AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 03:33AM

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> . . . your critics that they're wrong.
>
> Straight out of your go-to Sunday School playbook,
> I see.

Steve, I understand you're well schooled in middle school punditry. I was hoping to get a few actual thoughtful responses and input from people who took the time to watch the video. We may actually have some folks in our community well educated on the topic that can provide some meaningful feedback.

Feel free to start a new topic on my towering ignorance, or that of theists in general. Until then, will you please keep your unrelated and meaningless taunts to yourself?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 03:35AM

What is your definition of "God"?

It would be so much easier if you would simply answer that basic question. Alas, you can't even answer "middle school"-phrased inquiries. (Just like you couldn't answer the points I made in a previous thread against the case for the allegedly "historical" Jesus).

Speaking of Jesus/God, how is that unrelated to this thread? You're the one who used the term "theistic" in the subject line of the OP. What is, therefore, your definition of "God"--you know, the "theistic something" out there that is driving the quantum-physics creation issue in this thread? You framed the topic as such, so now you're stuck with it.

Define your terms.

"God."

Your turn.

(P.S.: If it would help, you can call it the "historical God").

:)



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 04:02AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 03:14AM

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That intrepid theist doesn't understand quantum
> mechanics, either.
> Simply stated, it's not "observation" that affects
> quantum systems -- it's interaction. So any other
> matter or energy can be the "observer" that
> perturbs quantum states. No intelligence or
> person or "observer" is needed. And no "creator"
> is implied or required.

Actually, you're wrong. Here's Morgan Freeman from his "Through the Wormhole" Science series explaining that simple observation in the Double Slit Experiment alters matter. It's a foundational experiment to Quantum Mechanics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT-_uCLwKhQ

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 03:16AM

Scientifically.

Start by defining "God," then point to the scientific proof of "God's" existence in the big picture of what you referred to up top as "theistic creation."



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 03:51AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 05:50AM

This is just my personal favorite, but I go from "I am aware, therefore I am" (thus, awareness exists), to "pure conscious awareness is god". There's nothing "supernatural" about this, it's all very natural. Tall Man may offer something different, or perhaps be content to not.

Einstein showed how matter and energy are interchangeable, and therefore, one. My feeling is, energy and consciousness are interchangeable, and therefore, one. So energy is also god.

To me, this definition satisfies the conditions of quantum mechanics for the purposes of the various experiments under consideration. It also satisfies the basis for theism. Thus, quantum mechanics could be seen as evidence and support for a kind of theism. But please note, I am not making any such claim, personally. I am merely interested in the infinite play of consciousness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 05:59AM by hello.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 07:16AM

In, reality, consciousness is actuated by, and dependent on, the brain--and that when the brain dies, the mind dies with it. As Keith Augustine explains in his article, “The Case Against Immortality”:

“Modern science demonstrates the dependence of consciousness on the brain, verifying that the mind must die with the body. . . .

“Barry Beyerstein points out that the view ‘that consciousness is inseparable from the functioning of individual brains remains the cornerstone of physiological psychology’ (Beyerstein, p. 44). . . .

“Beyerstein lists five main types of empirical evidence which support the dependence of consciousness on the brain.

“First, phylogenetic evidence refers to the evolutionary relationship between the complexity of the brain and a species' cognitive traits (Beyerstein, p. 45).

"Corliss Lamont sums up this evidence:

"‘We find that the greater the size of the brain and its cerebral cortex in relation to the animal body and the greater their complexity, the higher and more versatile the form of life' (Lamont, p. 63).

“Second, the developmental evidence for mind-brain dependence is that mental abilities emerge with the development of the brain; failure in brain development prevents mental development’ (Beyerstein, p. 45).

“Third, clinical evidence consists of cases of brain damage that result from accidents, toxins, diseases, and malnutrition that often result in irreversible losses of mental functioning (p. 45). If the mind could exist independently of the brain, why couldn't the mind compensate for lost faculties when brain cells die after brain damage? (p. 46).

“Fourth, the strongest empirical evidence for mind-brain dependence is derived from experiments in neuroscience. Mental states are correlated with brain states; electrical or chemical stimulation of the human brain invokes perceptions, memories, desires and other mental states (p. 45).

“Finally, the experiential evidence for mind-brain dependence consists of the effects of several different types of drugs which predictably affect mental states (p. 45).

“Memory is essential to self-identity. Electrical or chemical stimulation of the brain can prevent the formation of new memories and cause memory loss for events that occurred up to three years before such intervention (Stokes, p. 71). Neuroscientists have accumulated a considerable amount of evidence that long-term memory traces ‘are dependent upon, and perhaps consist of, changes in the strengths of synaptic connections among neurons’ (Stokes, p. 73).

"Lamont argues that because:

“’The proper functioning of memory . . . depends . . . on the associational patterns laid down as enduring structural imprints through means of inter-neuronic connections . . . [I]t is difficult beyond measure to understand how they could survive after the destruction of the living brain in which they had their original locus’ (Lamont, p. 76).

“Further experimental evidence for mind-brain dependence is derived from ‘split-brain’ patients who have undergone an operation that severs the corpus callosum to reduce epileptic seizures (Beyerstein, p. 45). The corpus callosum is a broad band of fibers that directly connect the left and right hemispheres of the brain. If information is only presented to one hemisphere of a ‘split-brain’ patient, the other hemisphere is unaware of it and is not capable of understanding the reactions of the informed hemisphere (p. 45).

“The result of ‘split-brain’ surgery is the formation of two mental systems, each with independent mental attributes (p. 45). A variety of psychological tests corroborate the existence of two streams of consciousness demonstrably unaware of the contents of the other (Parfit, p. 248). To give a humorous example, ‘one of the patients complained that sometimes, when he embraced his wife, his left hand pushed her away’ (Parfit, p. 249). Beyerstein asks: ‘If a 'free-floating' mind exists, why can't it maintain unity of consciousness by providing an information conduit between the disconnected hemispheres?’ (Beyerstein, p. 46).

“One of the strongest arguments for mind-brain dependence comes from the effects of ‘brain pacemakers’ which electrically stimulate the cerebellum in the brains of psychotics (Hooper and Teresi, p. 154).

"The following case illustrates these effects:

“’Another patient, a severely depressed former physicist, was troubled by voices that commanded him to choke his wife. When he got one of Dr. Heath's pacemakers in 1977, the infernal voices vanished, along with his perennial gloom. . . . But his wires eventually broke, and once again his wife was threatened with strangulation. When the gadgetry was mended, so was the man's psyche’ (Hooper and Teresi, p. 155).

“These are just a few examples from neuroscience of the dependence of consciousness on the brain. We know that altering the brain's chemistry can cause drastic personality changes. Schizophrenia and Alzheimer's disease are dramatic examples of mind-brain dependence. If you are thinking of suicide, don't go to a psychiatrist, go to a pharmacologist: A combination of an antidepressant and tryptophan should banish all thoughts of ending your life (Hooper and Teresi 171).

“Survival proponents who think that the brain is an instrument of the soul use arguments like the following in an attempt to reconcile physiology and the soul:

“’A colored glass . . . [has] only a transmissive function in respect to the light that shines through [it], since [it does not itself] create the rays. The same may be said of an organ, which transforms already existing air into music. In a similar fashion the human body may act as a transmission apparatus for the supernatural soul’ (Lamont, p. 98).

“Corliss Lamont makes it apparent that this rejoinder has no force:

“’A severe injury to the head, for instance, may change an ordinarily cheerful man into a sullen and morose one subject to sudden fits of homicidal mania. If the brain and body are simply the instruments of the soul, we have to say in such a case that this personality is really still brimming over with joy and benevolence, but that unfortunately these sentiments can only express themselves in dark glances, in peevish complaints and in violent attacks’ (Lamont, p. 100).

"Lamont continues:

“’Suppose . . . [he] becomes definitely insane . . .[and] is convinced he is Napoleon. . . . Are we to say that his real personality is still normal, that his soul is still thinking clearly and healthily and that as soon as he gets rid of his body by dying he will come to his senses?’ (p. 100).

“The illustrations of the ‘instrument theory’ reveal a fatal flaw:

“’If the human body corresponds to a colored glass, . . . then the living personality corresponds to the colored light that is the result of the glass . . . . Now, while light, in general, will continue to exist without the colored glass, . . . the specific red or blue or yellow rays that the glass produces . . . will certainly not persist if the glass [is] destroyed’ (Lamont, p. 104).

“The consequences of the instrument theory are absurd. Throughout aging, specific mental abilities may be irrevocably lost one-by-one:

“’Yet, if instead of the senses being destroyed separately and gradually by disease or accident, they are all simultaneously destroyed by death, the dualistic immortalist asks us to believe that they will go on in some other state with unimpaired, if not greatly improved, capabilities!’ (Lamont, p. 102).

“Paul Edwards asks: ‘How does the complete destruction of the brain bring about a cure that has so far totally eluded medical science?’ (Edwards, ‘Dependence,’ p. 296).

“Edwards argues that the instrument theory is inconsistent with Alzheimer's disease:

“’An Alzheimer patient's brain is severely damaged and most of his mind has disappeared. After his death his brain is not merely damaged but completely destroyed. It is surely logical to conclude that now his mind is also gone’ (p. 296).

“If under certain circumstances the mind cannot survive in life, how can it survive death? Edwards provides a clear illustration of the incompatibility of the instrument theory with the facts of Alzheimer's disease. Prior to her affliction with Alzheimer's, ‘Mrs. D’ was a considerate, compassionate person with a normal functioning mind.

"Yet:

“’At about the time when she could no longer recognize her daughter, she beat up [a] paralyzed lady on two or three occasions . . . . [The instrument theory] implies that throughout her affliction with Alzheimer's, Mrs. D.'s mind was intact. She recognized her daughter but had lost her ability to express this recognition. She had no wish to beat up an inoffensive paralyzed old woman. On the contrary, 'inside' she was the same considerate person as before the onset of the illness. It is simply that her brain disease prevented her from acting in accordance with her true emotions . . . . [T]hese are the implications of the theory that the mind survives the death of the brain and that the brain is only an instrument for communication. Surely these consequences are absurd’ (pp. 299-300).

“Other survival proponents concede the evidence for mind-brain dependence but try to avoid the implication of personal extinction at death.

“Douglas Stokes, for example, writes:

“’[T]he intimate dependency of one's personality on the state of the brain makes it appear unlikely that one's personality and memories could remain largely intact following the destruction of the brain. However, memories, feelings, behavioral dispositions, and other personality traits are probably not the aspects of the mind that should be identified with an unchanging self . . . . . It would seem that the self must be what Hart called the “I thinker,” that entity that thinks one's thoughts, senses one's sensations, feels one's feelings and remembers one's memories rather than being the thoughts, sensations, feelings, and memories themselves’ (Stokes, p. 76).

“Stokes' attempt to leave room for survival while acknowledging the strong and consistent evidence for mind-brain dependence is disingenuous.

“By accepting the implications of this evidence, Stokes has cut off the possibility of any form of PERSONAL survival (resurrection aside). Once an individual has been stripped of his memories, dispositions, mental skills and personality traits, nothing but a tabula rasa remains. Such a 'blank slate' could not be a vehicle of personal survival; the mind of a deceased individual would be reduced to something like the mind of an infant, only divorced from any means to perceive or interact with its environment.

“Most of us would regard the reduction of the mind of a productive adult to the mind of an infant while alive as a tragedy as great as that of death itself; thus the bare existence Stokes allows for the mind after death would hardly be better than extinction.

“In fact, it seems unintelligible to claim that a particular individual has 'survived' his death once all of his distinctive mental characteristics have been erased (a particularly poignant problem for the idea of reincarnation). The continued existence of an 'undifferentiated self' lacking the mental traits which uniquely characterize a particular individual does not constitute personal survival anymore than the continued existence of one's bones does.

“William Hasker takes a different approach. He, too, concedes the evidence for the dependence of consciousness on the brain:

“’Whereas dualism has been above all concerned to assert the INDEPENDENCE of mind from body, both scientific findings and everyday observation combine to show the mind's DEPENDENCE on bodily conditions. A partial listing of relevant data would include: the dependence of personality states on hormone balance, the genetic determination by DNA structure of mental attributes and defects, the effects of drugs on mental states, personality changes in persons who have undergone such operations as frontal leucotomy or temporal leucotomy . . . . [T]hese findings . . . taken as a body . . . demonstrate a profound and comprehensive dependence of the mental, emotional, and even the spiritual aspects of human personality on its biological basis in the human brain and nervous system’ (Hasker, p. 306).

“How does Hasker try to reconcile the evidence for mind-brain dependence with the survival hypothesis? His contention that ‘while originally produced by the brain and dependent upon it in many respects, the mind is nevertheless capable of continuing to exist and to function without the brain after the death of the body’ seems unintelligible (p. 307). As he himself asks, ‘If . . . the mind or soul is generated by the brain and is dependent on it in all the ways already emphasized, how can it fail to perish with the brain?’ (p. 307).

“Although Hasker never satisfactorily answers this question, he does provide an analogy to try to explain his conclusion:

“’A black hole . . . is an incredibly intense gravitational field which is originally generated by a massive object but which, once it has formed, literally squeezes the object out of existence. Thus, according to Roger Penrose, “After the body has collapsed in, it is better to think of the black hole as a self-sustaining gravitational field in its own right. It has no further use for the body which originally built it!” Could the human mind, then, like the black hole, become a SLEF-SUSTAINING field of consciousness?’ (p. 308)

“What are we to make of this analogy? I am afraid that there are far too many dissimilarities between the mind and a black hole to draw any reliable conclusions about the mind-brain relationship.

“For example, a black hole is created when the collapsing star which generated it is destroyed. The brain, on the other hand, is not destroyed when the mind comes into existence.

“The black hole and the star which created it do not exist SIMULTANEOUSLY, unlike the mind and the brain. More poignantly, however, when the mind comes into existence, on this analogy, it should no longer need the brain ONCE IT IS CREATED--that is, even BEFORE the brain is destroyed.

“The black hole analogy, like that of a child which grew in the womb but no longer depends on the womb for sustenance after birth, is an example of generation without CONTINUING dependence. The mind-brain relationship, on the other hand, is an example of both the generation AND continuing dependence of the mind on the brain. This relationship is captured more closely by the analogy of the dependence of a magnetic field on a magnet; but since the magnetic field ceases to exist when the magnet is destroyed, it is not surprising that Hasker rejects the closer analogy in order to avoid its consequences.

“If the mind depends on the brain throughout life then, in all probability, it depends on the brain even as death approaches. The mere fact that the human organism may be approaching death is not going to suddenly transform the mind into an independent entity which no longer needs the brain to function.

“The dependence of mental states on the brain during life strongly implies that when the brain dies the mind dies with it, just as a non-duplicated computer program ceases to exist when the computer it runs on is completely destroyed. Thus the evidence for the CONTINUED dependence of consciousness on the brain provides strong evidential support for the extinction hypothesis.

“One last point to make about the implausibility of survival given our knowledge of our evolutionary heritage is that:
“It is patently absurd to expect that all the myriad specimens of all the myriad species of life from the beginning of evolution are to go on existing forever in another world. Yet, we are led into just such absurdities when we once start relying on the dualistic theory that man has an immortal soul . . .that can exist independently of the body (Lamont, p. 117).

“Neuroscientists agree that the facts cited above ARE, Indeed, facts. Furthermore, scientists outside of neuroscience do not dispute that cases demonstrating the dependence of consciousness on the brain are valid.

“On the other hand, ‘most scientists outside of the parapsychological field do not accept the existence of psychic phenomena’ (‘Parapsychology’). Even within parapsychology, we find few parapsychologists who believe that psi is indicative of survival of bodily death[. John Beloff states that:

“’It should not be thought . . . that all parapsychologists are necessarily committed to a dualist interpretation of the mind-body relationship. At the present time, especially, many exponents prefer to think of psi as essentially a function of the brain, or of some special brain mechanism or process ‘(Beloff, ‘Parapsychology,’ p. 586).

“In other words, even most parapsychologists accept the dependence of consciousness on the brain! This leaves the survival hypothesis in an awkward position since paranormal phenomena are the best source of evidence that survival proponents have to offer.

“Even if one is inclined to believe that paranormal phenomena are best explained in terms of survival, the existence of such phenomena is doubtful because ‘a century after the founding of the Society for Psychical Research, there is still a total lack of consensus regarding the actuality of any parapsychological phenomena’ (Beloff, ‘Parapsychology,’ p. 586).

‘This lack of consensus is due to the lack of evidence for psi [paranormal phenomena]:

“With the single exception of hypnosis, not even the existence of one of the phenomena originally classed as supernatural, or later as paranormal, has achieved general acceptance among the scientific community; not one demonstrable, or repeatable, paranormal effect has been discovered; not one characteristic or law has been found which turns up in all those experiments that claim a positive result (Scott, p. 579).

“I think I have presented a fairly accurate representation of the evidence on both sides of this issue, and in weighing that evidence the scales are clearly tipped in favor of extinction. . . . We should not allow our emotions to cloud our judgment.

As Corliss Lamont says:

“’We do not ask to be born; and we do not ask to die. But born we are and die we must. We come into existence and we pass out of existence. And in neither case does high-handed fate await our ratification of its decree.’ (Lamont, p. 278).

(Keith Augustine, “The Case Against Immortality,” original emphasis, at: http://infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/immortality.html)
_____


Conclusion:

None of this energy-brain reality sounds like the engine for "theistic creation," as you yourself framed the discussion in the subject line of your OP.

And it certainly doesn't sound like "theism," which is defined by Webster as "a belief in a god or gods."

Need I point out to you that your own lower-cased "god" presents itself as entirely materialistic? If "god"/"God" is responsible for having "theistically created" energy and consciousness, then scientifically prove it. If you are of the view that they both just exist as they "are" without explanation or demonstration of their origin, then that's just faith, not science.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 08:33AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 07:34AM

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Why use actual thought, when you can spam your way into an argument?

You are unbelievable. You now fall into the category of someone who is so insecure in their beliefs that they just place their hands over their ears and start babbling.

Everything mentioned in this topic is based upon quantum theory that was postulated nearly 50 years ago and remains foundational to quantum theory today.

Nothing you've posted even gets in the neighborhood. I imagine there are atheists out there who can present their points of view on this topic reasonably. You are clearly not one of those.

Steve, will you please just give it a rest until you can intelligently respond to your understanding of Wigner's Friend thought experiment?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 07:59AM

. . . that are, shall we say, critical to this subject--like the little detail of Higgs boson and how it factors into the existence of, well, everything (and does so without somehow being driven by a demonstrable "theistically creative force"--unless, of course, you know something scientists don't).

But, then again, maybe Morgan Freeman thinks you're real smart--and maybe even George Burns thinks so, too, since he also played God in a popular movie, alongside John Denver.

Yeah, that's the ticket. :)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 08:22AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 04:25AM

Here's another interesting segment from Morgan Freeman's Science series, "Through the Wormhole." This excerpt shows "Schrödinger's Cat," which examines one of the paradoxes created by quantum theory. Since quantum theory has proven that observation alters outcome, how far can that be extended?

This clip is also in the original video posted, but I see most posters aren't actually watching that. This one is entirely the product of the Science Channel. The physicist speaking on the clip is Michio Kaku.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDGABLP8LxI

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Posted by: grubbygert nli ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 05:09AM

> how far can that be extended?

your logical fallacy is:

God-of-the-gaps


"The term God-of-the-gaps fallacy can refer to a position that assumes an act of God as the explanation for an unknown phenomenon, which is a variant of an argument from ignorance fallacy.[13][14] Such an argument is sometimes reduced to the following form:

There is a gap in understanding of some aspect of the natural world.
Therefore the cause must be supernatural."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 05:29AM

grubbygert nli Wrote:
> There is a gap in understanding of some aspect of
> the natural world.
> Therefore the cause must be supernatural."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

You should actually watch the video before you post. Or just Google, "Schrödinger's Cat."

Wigner (Google "Wigner's Friend") was the Nobel Prize winner who expanded on Schrödinger's poor cat and postulated the necessity for conscious observation to determine outcome. This has nothing to do with the theory you reference.

There certainly are competing theories, and I was hoping to see what some in our community thought of those compared to the positions of Schrödinger and Wigner.

To date it seems all I've proven is Pavlov's experiment. Just mention "supports theism" and atheists will froth at the mouth and argue against things posited only in their imaginations.

I'm off to bed now. Maybe tomorrow someone will finally offer some conversation based upon the actual topic here.

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Posted by: grubbygert nli ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 05:45AM

Shroedinger may be new to you but many people are already aware of him

But thanks for the advice

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 06:52AM

Religionists are looking, it seems, for any way--no matter of foolish or fanciful--to attach their "God" beliefs involving how everything supposedly and magically came into being by beating the drum for and in behalf of portal to perception they like to call "theistic creation." At its core is the so-called "God Particle." Last year, scientists confirmed the existence of the Higgs boson (i.e, the supposedly. supernatural supercharged "God particle"). Here's some basic background on the discovery of the HIgs boson:

"GENEVA--The search is all but over for a subatomic particle that is a crucial building block of the universe.

"Physicists announced . . . that they believe they have discovered the subatomic particle predicted nearly a half-century ago that will go a long way toward explaining what gives electrons and all matter in the universe size and shape.

"The elusive particle, called a Higgs boson, was predicted in 1964 to help fill in our understanding of the creation of the universe, which many theorize occurred in a massive explosion known as the Big Bang.

"The particle was named for Peter Higgs, one of the physicists who proposed its existence, but it later became popularly known as the 'God particle.'"

("Eureka! Physicists Find ‘God Particle,’" by John Heilprin, "Associated Press," 15 March 2013, at: http://www.azcentral.com/news/free/20130315eureka-physicists-find-god-particle.html)
_____


When it comes to this handy-dandy go-to "God particle," we might as well call it the "Tinkerbell Tool," since that seems to be the preferred "religious" explanation. of how it works-- which doesn't make scientists very happy. What follows are some reasons why they chafe at thia "God"-gummed-up term--one which has been used by Heaven's pit crews to take the Higgs boson off track and drive it straight into the heart of their prayer book as an eternal [P]article of Faith. It's rather unfortunate that in doing their God's detour work, they've contorted science in gawd-awful fashion in order to explain it all in ways only Jesus's geniuses can understand.

Before getting into how relentless religionists are trying to cram their monkey-wrenching myths into the machinery of science, let's, for their benefit, draw the issue in simple terms. (Cartooning comes in handy when trying to communicate scientific truths to true believers). In that regard, here's a boiled-down image that explains what was actually involved in the discoveryof the Higgs boson. (It's in the form of a drawing of mine that a perplexed reader asked me to explain, confessing that they didn't understand it but thought it was "atheistic"):

http://i.azcentral.com/i/1/E/E/PHP4FF6294324EE1.jpg


For those interested in drawing further light and knowledge ,here's an animated point-by-pointer on how the Higgs boson operates:

(“An Animated Explanation of the Higgs Boson Subatomic Particle,” by Scott Beale, 4 July 2012, at: http://laughingsquid.com/an-animated-explanation-of-the-higgs-boson-subatomic-particle/)
_____


But enough of the cartoons. Time to deal with the joke that Bible believers are making at their own expense--not to mention at the expense of science--in their faithful attempts to reconstruct the Higgs boson into a holy heap of heavenly hooey.

--Higgs Boson and "God": No Match Made in Heaven

In an article entitled, “Why Scientists Hate 'The God Particle,'” a commendable effort is made to explain the science of it all to those who apparently want to muddle it with their own favored brands of religious ridiculousness:

“Scientists are thrilled about the Higgs boson. But many of them are sick of that term 'The God Particle.'

“Scientists claim they have discovered the Higgs boson, also called the 'God particle,' that could help explain what gives all matter in the universe size and shape.

“Scottish physicist Peter Higgs and other scientists predicted in the 1960s that particles interact with one subatomic particle, called the Higgs boson or the 'God Particle.' Scientists are calling the discovery 'Higgs-like,' a key to understanding why there is diversity and life in the universe, according to 'The New York Times'

("Physicists Find Elusive Particle Seen as Key to Universe," by Dennis Overbye, in "New York Times, under "Science" section, 4 July 2013, at: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/05/science/cern-physicists-may-have-discovered-higgs-boson-particle.html?_r=1&hp)


“Higgs has said he objected to the 'God particle' label because he 'worries that the title “might offend people who are religious.' The 2008 interview with 'New Scientist' . . . does not explain what he feels might be offensive about the connection, whether there was something inherently contradictory between what scientists believe to be the universe's origins with what those who are religious would believe, connected specifically to the boson. A similar idea was repeated in 'The Guardian,' linking the term to another physicist, who intended something completely different for the name:

“'Its theistic nickname was coined by Nobel-prize winning physicist Leon Lederman, but Higgs himself is no fan of the label. "I find it embarrassing because, though I'm not a believer myself, I think it is the kind of misuse of terminology which I think might offend some people.'

“'It wasn't even Lederman's choice. He wanted to refer to it as that '[g--d---] particle' and his editor wouldn't let him,” says Higgs.'

“Lederman's own book 'The God Particle' uses the same line 'This boson is so central to the state of physics today, so crucial to our final understanding of the structure of matter, yet to elusive, that I have given it a nickname: “The God Particle." Why “God Particle?” Two reasons. One, the publisher wouldn’t let us call it the “[G--d---] Particle,” though that might be a more appropriate title, given its villainous nature and the expense it is causing. And two, there is a connection, of sorts, to another book, a much older one . . . '

“'And then he writes about the story of the Tower of Babel and the "curious intellectual stress" it illustrates.

“'In an interview with NPR, Victoria Martin, a lecturer in physics and astronomy at the University of Edinburgh and a former student of Higgs, explained why scientists don't like the “God Particle" term.

“'SIEGEL: I want to ask you about this particle's nickname, the "God particle." What did Higgs, who've I've read is an atheist, think about the nickname the "God particle"?

“'MARTIN: I'm sure--I actually haven't ever asked him this directly, but I'm sure he doesn't like it. Almost all particle physicists detest that name. . . .

“'So the name stuck and I think it's fine because then people know what we're talking about. But secretly, all of us hate the name, the "God particle."'

“'Science writer Dennis Overbye, who covered Wednesday's news, wrote a fascinating essay for the “New York Times”in 2007 on the challenge of inserting (or not inserting) God into science writing, particularly when writing about the "God Particle."

“'Last week a reader accused me of trying to attract religiously inclined readers by throwing out “God meat” for them.

“'It was not the first time that I had been accused of using religion to sell science. Or was it using science to sell religion?

“”My guide in all of this, of course, the biggest name-dropper in science, is Albert Einstein, who mentioned God often enough that one could imagine he and the 'Old One' had a standing date for coffee or tennis. To wit: “The Lord is subtle, but malicious he is not."

“'. . . I wouldn’t dream of depriving any future Einstein of his or her rhetorical or metaphorical tools'"

“'Here's how the “Associated Press” explains the scientific discovery:

“'The Higgs boson, which until now has been a theoretical particle, is seen as the key to understanding why matter has mass, which combines with gravity to give an object weight. The idea is much like gravity and Isaac Newton's discovery of it: Gravity was there all the time before Newton explained it. But now scientists have seen something very much like the Higgs boson and can put that knowledge to further use.

“'CERN's atom smasher, the $10 billion Large Hadron Collider on the Swiss-French border, has been creating high-energy collisions of protons to investigate dark matter, antimatter and the creation of the universe, which many theorize occurred in a massive explosion known as the Big Bang.'

“'A “Sydney Morning Herald” piece collects the jokes:

“'A Higgs boson walks into a church, according to one joke which did the rounds. "We don't allow Higgs bosons in here!" shouts the priest. "But without me, how can you have mass?" asks the particle.'

“'The “Christianity Today” July/August cover story will be on 'The Tale of Two Scientists: They agree about the scientific method--but not about what happened ‘in the beginning.’

“Sarah Pulliam Bailey summarizes the history of the term and how scientists (including Peter Higgs) aren’t fans of the misleading term:

“. . . The nickname is silly now, anyway. Unlike god, we now have pretty solid evidence that the Higgs boson actually exists.”

(“Why Scientists Hate ‘The God Particle,’” by Hemant Mehta, 5 July 2012, at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/07/05/why-scientists-hate-the-god-particle-2/; see also, "Why Scientists Don't Like the Term 'God Particle' for the Higgs Boson," by Sarah Pulliam Bailey, in "Christianity Today," at:
http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2012/07/why-scientists-dont-like-the-term-god-particle-for-the-higgs-boson.html)

**********


When it comes to the Higgs boson, whaddya say we leave "God" out of it and instead put Facts into it? After all, history has shown that it's the best formula for success.

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Posted by: rt nli ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 07:40AM

Asking us to watch a video of a creationist discussing quantum mechanics is akin to asking us to watching a FAIR video arguing Book of Mormon historicity: it's a complete waste of time.

Quantum anything, thermodynamics, these are all red flags warning of turds down the road.

You clearly do not grasp the basics of quantum mechanics. The one sensible thing said about the subject was immediately dismissed by you. Stop wasting everybody's time.

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Posted by: weems ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 08:02AM

TMSH,

Some of us already understand quantum mechanica, not from watching silly popularizations, but because we've had experience solving wave equations.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Conscience observation has nothing to do with quantum mechanics. As ificouldhietokolob said, it's about interaction. If there's no interaction, no observation is possible. If there's interaction but no observer, the quantum effects occur.

The moral of the story is that, even if you shut your eyes and plug your ears, being careful to "observe" nothing, the quantum effects will still be there.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 08:15AM

weems Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TMSH,
>
> Some of us already understand quantum mechanica,
> not from watching silly popularizations, but
> because we've had experience solving wave
> equations.
>
> You have no idea what you are talking about.
>
> Conscience observation has nothing to do with
> quantum mechanics. As ificouldhietokolob said,
> it's about interaction. If there's no interaction,
> no observation is possible. If there's interaction
> but no observer, the quantum effects occur.
>
> The moral of the story is that, even if you shut
> your eyes and plug your ears, being careful to
> "observe" nothing, the quantum effects will still
> be there.

Actually, it's you that seems to completely misunderstand quantum theory. What is the significance of the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment if not to demonstrate observation alone alters outcome?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser

And the foundational experiment in quantum theory is the double slit experiment. This displays the proof that observation alone affects outcome. Some point to this specific experiment which has its roots in the early 1800's as the foundation of quantum theory.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 08:27AM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 08:20AM

. . . it was you who said you "make no claim to any depth" about "quantum mechanics"? Maybe if you understood the theory, you'd get the mechanics.

Just sayin.'

Wait. I forgot. You have "wiki."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 08:29AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: weems ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 08:29AM

Did you even read that Wikipedia article? Here's a good paragraph:

"In addition to challenging our common sense ideas of temporal sequence in cause and effect relationships, this experiment is among those that strongly attack our ideas about locality, the idea that things cannot interact unless they are in contact, if not by being in direct physical contact then at least by interaction through magnetic or other such field phenomena."

Like any other quantum effect, it's about interaction and not some hypothetical conscious observer. What makes the experiment seem weird to us human beings is that it doesn't match our prejudices about time, cause and effect and locality.

It's about time and space, and probably causality.

You should try to learn some quantum before you spout off. That will require some advanced math and physics, but the payoff in understanding is worth it.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 08:31AM


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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 08:33AM

weems Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you even read that Wikipedia article? Here's a
> good paragraph:
>
> "In addition to challenging our common sense ideas
> of temporal sequence in cause and effect
> relationships, this experiment is among those that
> strongly attack our ideas about locality, the idea
> that things cannot interact unless they are in
> contact, if not by being in direct physical
> contact then at least by interaction through
> magnetic or other such field phenomena."
>
> Like any other quantum effect, it's about
> interaction and not some hypothetical conscious
> observer. What makes the experiment seem weird to
> us human beings is that it doesn't match our
> prejudices about time, cause and effect and
> locality.
>
> It's about time and space, and probably
> causality.
>
> You should try to learn some quantum before you
> spout off. That will require some advanced math
> and physics, but the payoff in understanding is
> worth it.

I'm sorry to embarrass you, but that specific paragraph is detailing the paradox of the findings. It challenges what we understand about the physical universe. It challenges us with proof positive that in the quantum world, particles are influenced merely by observation. Read the article again, or just study a bit on the double slit experiment and it may become more clear.

This is why many refer to quantum theory as magical. Einstein referred to the notion as "spooky" before it was actually discovered.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 08:44AM

One of the amazing things in this is that if matched particles are placed in the same state and you change the state of one,it will instantly change the state of the other without any contact whatsoever. NASA just performed this experiment at a 15 mile distance

Here's an article just out from Popular Mechanics on this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/tech-news/nasa-quantum-teleportation-record-15-miles-17450197-clone-1416523893

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 01:02PM

. . . quantum proves Christ.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 01:02PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 11:02AM

If matter behaves differently when observed, and God sees everything, then matter is always observed.

just sayin'.....

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Posted by: Void K. Packer ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 11:34AM

Until someone demonstrates a knowledge of Dirac notation, they have no business even attempting to talk about quantum mechanics because they have no idea what it is. I'm a physicist who *can* (or could) work with <bra|H|ket>s and I claim no metaphysical insights from it.

Bluntly put, excluding a handful such as Bohr or Josephson, all these pundits are practicing QM without a license and only yammer about very ill understood analogies which they can in no way rigorously demonstrate.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 01:21PM

Void K. Packer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Until someone demonstrates a knowledge of Dirac
> notation, they have no business even attempting to
> talk about quantum mechanics because they have no
> idea what it is. I'm a physicist who *can* (or
> could) work with s and I claim no metaphysical
> insights from it.
>
> Bluntly put, excluding a handful such as Bohr or
> Josephson, all these pundits are practicing QM
> without a license and only yammer about very ill
> understood analogies which they can in no way
> rigorously demonstrate.

Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure I understand why you're placing an artificial restriction on the discussion, but maybe I can draw from your knowledge. It seems a bit unproductive to try prohibit discussion about this while refusing to actually answer any of the questions. So many others in your field seem capable of engaging it.

What exactly is your understanding of the significance of the foundational double slit experiment and Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment? Do you agree that even a layman can recognize the mere act of observation changes the outcome? Most everything I've read labels that phenomena as the "founding mystery" of quantum theory. Will you explain if you disagree and why?

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Posted by: Bradley ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 12:35PM

I hope the response you got doesn't surprise you. It really comes down to how Mormonism has perverted idealism to the point of idiocy. So, don't blame anybody here for being defensive.

I watched the video and I LOVED IT! I highly recommend watching.

I'm not sure QM is the right approach to the consciousness problem because the things being discussed are only illustrated by certain QM experiments and have nothing to do with the practice of QM.

There's no sky daddy but there is something. Universal mind, infinite love, oneness, something. The mind-matter distinction could be a false dichotomy: It's all mind. That's the message of the video.

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Posted by: schmendrick ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 12:56PM

Quantum mechanics is a lot like Mormonism. It's really weird, and it uses terminology that sounds like it refers to something familiar to the outside world, but has a very specific (and often different -- and generally very counterintuitive) meaning within its own context. Like "observe" and "spin."

Thinking consciousness has a significant and direct impact on phenomena is a little like thinking Mormonism is about Jesus.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 12:57PM by schmendrick.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 01:26PM

schmendrick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quantum mechanics is a lot like Mormonism. It's
> really weird, and it uses terminology that sounds
> like it refers to something familiar to the
> outside world, but has a very specific (and often
> different -- and generally very counterintuitive)
> meaning within its own context. Like "observe" and
> "spin."
>
> Thinking consciousness has a significant and
> direct impact on phenomena is a little like
> thinking Mormonism is about Jesus.

The first time I read about the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment, I had to go back and read the article again. It repeatedly defies timing and observes something that seems to occur faster than the speed of light. It violates everything we know about the world, yet is entirely scientifically founded and tested.

As I said in my original post, mind blowing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 01:26PM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

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Posted by: Papa Bear ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 01:17PM

I think this is a great video. To hear more on this subject, check out Peter Russell - http://www.peterrussell.com/SCG/realityconsc.php

Consciousness remains the biggest mystery under traditional models of physics. Our conscious awareness is a HUGE component of reality. Without conscious awareness, the rest of the universe is meaningless. With no being there to experience the universe, who really cares? We give the universe and everything in it meaning through our conscious experience.

But incredibly, the "objective" world of science is absolutely clueless when it comes to understanding the source of consciousness. The age old deep question of, "who am I" still hasn't been answered by science. Who is the "experiencer" of this world and the universe? Where does my conscious awareness come from? No discipline of science has even come close to explaining conscious awareness. Neither physics, nor chemistry, nor biology, nor any scientific discipline can explain why living conscious awareness arises from dead matter. Indeed, although science can point to physical expressions of awareness (e.g. chemical reactions in the brain), science has no idea where to find awareness itself or what it actually is.

The more I learn about these topics, the more convinced I am that consciousness is indeed foundational and preceeds the so-called "material world." And that is where we find God.

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Posted by: Papa Bear ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 01:37PM

Whoops... "precedes"

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Posted by: blankstare ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 01:24PM

This video gave me the same feelng i get when listening to the song I'm My Own Grandpa. Starts to resemble incoherent babble.

I mean, something only exists if its being observed. Yet god existed forever, before we existed to observe her/him/it, yet despite not being observed, god supposedly still existed.

Are we sure these people dont use too much LDS, er, LSD?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2014 01:31PM by blankstare.

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Posted by: torturednevermo ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 01:43PM

I too am fascinated by a premise that our consciousness can affect reality. However, for me as an atheist, god or talk of god doesn’t even enter into the equation. I observe it like this.

My very negative thinking friend is a drag to go out with. His expectations are so powerful as he complains that we will certainly be late, that traffic will be bad, that we won’t find any parking. And all these things come true, I don’t enjoy going places with him much.

I just ask the unicorns to clear traffic, get me there on time, and to find me a parking spot quickly. Works every time. Why use unicorns? It's just a mechanism to state my positive intention.

Why can’t I overcome my friend’s negativity when I go out with him? Because fear is a far stronger emotion than hope. Negativity seems to be really good at beating out positivity. And his expectations overpower mine every time. It is far easier to smash something apart than it was to build it in the first place. Didn’t Job say “That which I feared most, happened”?

Anyway, apply it in your life, don’t apply it …who cares. Positive intention works well for me, so I use it. I don’t care so much about trying to explain it. And I don’t see how it relates to God in any way. Just another function of our universe to me.

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