Me and my partner have been together for almost four years. We are both exmormon and don't keep that a secret. We decided to get married and started planning our wedding for this summer. He has already detached from his family due to complete lack of reciprocity (to oversimplify). I have worked very hard to keep my family relationships intact, sometimes at a big personal cost.

When we announced our engagement I wanted nothing more than my mother and sisters to be excited and celebrate with me! We had the kind of relationship that made that possible. But then I told them my brother wasn't invited. He had really hurt us the previous summer when he refused to stay in the family house with us over a holiday weekend because "unmarried people sleeping together is a spiritual threat to his children." It turned into a big deal and none of us ended up going. Needless to say I didn't call him, after not talking for almost a year, and say "Hi, we're getting married. BTW you're not invited."

This turned into a HUGE deal for my mother and sisters. They were beside themselves with grief, telling me that I was ruining the family and doing nothing but expressing their grief and sadness about it. I was directly told that I was the bad guy for this and when I tried to argue that I was doing it to protect my feelings from harmful behavior, they disagreed and said my feelings were wrong. I was on trial and defending myself. I told them that I would try to talk to my brother, but that an apology was extremely unlikely and he probably still wouldn't be invited to the wedding. They seemed happy with this and I got my second wind. Afterall I really wanted them to be excited and celebrate with me in my happiness! I told them they were entitled to their feelings and if they needed to create safe boundaries that prevented them from participating in my wedding that I would understand and respect that, but that I would miss them. In hind sight I think they were only happy at that point because they saw it as a potential opportunity to get what THEY wanted for me wedding...aka my brother to be invited and then later accused me of lying for not inviting him still. (is your head spinnig yet?)

The next week I went to lunch with my brother. It turns out a busy lunch place is not a great time for the "you're not invited to my wedding" speech. We small talked and it was fine. I actually did enjoy seeing him. Later that day I composed the kindest, gentlest most honest email I could muster and apologized that it wasn't in person. I let him know that I loved him and wanted to repair our relationship but at this time I feel like I have to have my guard up around you and I don't want to have my guard up at my wedding. That was it....in a nutshell. Its true, I didn't give him the opportunity to apologize, but its been almost a year. He has my phone number!

Later that night my phone rang. It was my sister (who isn't mormon but still exhibits many mormon thought patterns and behaviors). She began to scream and yell at me in the most abusive manner I could ever imagine. I am still having PTSD from that phone call. Apparently my brother called my mother crying, and my mother then told my sister. She said I was fucking myself, I was fucking everybody else, how could I lie to her and spit in her fucking face when I said I would try to work it out with my brother. She was fucking angry. I was silent and only said "i'm sorry you feel that way." She then said, "well i'm going to hand up unless you have something to say" in an indignant tone. I said I had absolutely nothing to say to that. The end. Unfortunately just 30 minutes prior to that phone call we had sent out a "save the date" message on facebook to about 200 guests. I was just devastated. so was my fiancee who witnessed the phone call. I didn't sleep all night and missed work the next day. We decided to just cancel everything. We wanted our wedding to be a grandiose celebration and at this point it just felt like it was completely poisoned. We spent the entire day trying to explain to our dear friends what had happened. Fortunately most of them are ex mormon and totally get it. If any of you are here in this group....HI. haha. What I learned was that my friends are far more supportive than my family could ever be.

I feel completely robbed of my wedding and my poor dear fiancee.....nobody ever acknowledged that this was HIS wedding too. My family hijacked it from the beginning, making it all about them. So to console myself I think "We didn't cancel OUR wedding, but my families wedding that they wanted for me."

I hardly know what to say except to say that this board is here for you.

Your mo bro has managed to screw two family events because his faith isn't strong enough to sustain him through emotional challenges, and he dumps the fallout onto other family members. Isn't he supposed to be a spiritual leader, set an example or something?

I'm sorry you have this as his wedding "gift," and his childish behavior goes to you having called it right to not invite him.

I wouldn't take any more calls or emails just now, maybe let your fiance screen them to make sure you're not needed at the hospital or something. I have a crazy, selfish family where it's all about them, so I don't waste my time trying to make my events about me. They are who they are, and I have no desire to change them or be around them.

I'm not quite sure why you would be upset about having sent out the save the date notices. Your wedding should proceed as you and your fiance wish, whether or not your family members plan on attending. And, it says a lot about mother that she "chose sides." I couldn't tell if it was her on the phone or you in your post that used the f word.

If it was you, I get it. If it was her, I say your brother comes by his bent for histrionics naturally, and I'm so sorry for you.

I wouldn't contact them or accept contact until they can behave in an adult and civil manner. The first shout would be the last, for a long time.

You are not going to like what I have to say.

Your brother was within his rights to not want to be at the family house at the same time as you and your fiancé. He could have stated it with more sensitivity, but ultimately it should not have been that big a deal. I can tell you that it probably wouldn't have flown with my parents as well, and they were Catholic.

Now in your shoes I would have gone to the family house anyway, and let your brother make his own choices.

I would patch it up with him. And I would go ahead and plan your big, happy wedding.

I think similarly to Summer. I know what he said really stung and you've held a grudge all this time. It seems to me that your brother probably wanted you two to get married and I think it was kind of weird that because of his offense you've set in motion a series of events the ended up with the wedding being canceled. It seems a bit of an overreaction.

If it were me, I'd try to patch things up and tell them you're feelings have been hurt and you overreacted. Ask them to all be grown ups and get along and help you throw a nice party and have everyone put their egos in check for the event.

I agree. Your brother has his principles and so do you. Trying to force yours on his (making him stay at your house) is just as bad as mormons forcing their "values" on everyone else. Having lunch & not talking about the elephant in the room, and sending an email later, is passive-aggressive. Grow up & apologize. Invite your brother to your wedding or be prepared to face the fallout from him & your family forever. We all screw up. It's what we do about it later that seperates good people from not so good.

I do NOT agree!! First, a wedding is ENTIRELY about the couple who are marrying. It's absurdly selfish of family members to insist they have their own way at YOUR wedding. Second, when I read the original post, it seemed to me that the sleeping in the same bed together incident occurred at a "family home", meaning vacation home? If so, well my parents would have done the same thing. My mom knows my boyfriend and I don't behave in the ways she would expect, yet I would not insist sleeping together with him when we stay at her house because it would upset her. Perhaps a compromise could have been made to keep the peace. I don't know, spilled milk… Anyways, I hope you are able to create something special with the man you love to celebrate your commitment.

This could be a good thing. Knowing your mom, sister and brother are capable of such outrageous behavior will save you and your fiancé future encounters. It is your and your fiancé's wedding. Invitations are a privilege...not a right of family members. Miss Manners wrote in a column that you do not have to invite family members who have treated you badly or are enemies.

I would cut contact with them until they are able to behave courteously and with respect. It takes two people to have a relationship. You can try to explain to your sister that you tried to re-connect with your brother but if she was so irrational on the phone, I suspect she will dismiss your explanation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2016 06:52PM by iris.

I think whoever is paying for or owns the house should be able to dictate things like that; I assume since you described it as the 'family house' then that means it's the house you grew up in with your brothers, sisters, and parents. So if you spent time there at some event with your fiancee, sleeping in the same room, that means it had your parents tacit acceptance. That should probably be the end of it right there, it seems like anyone else who says anything about it is making an unnecessary fuss. Your brother's appeal to safeguarding his children's morality is what it is, but since it has already been determined that you and your fiancee sleeping in the same room was kosher, it seems like he was just trying to make trouble by making an issue out of it.

For example, every 2 years, my grandparents rent a huge house for us to have a family reunion. If I showed up with some chick and said we were gonna be staying in a room together (obviously in this scenario we aren't married), they would throw a shit fit, and ultimately forbid it, because they're all mormons and that kind of thing is not ok with them. That's within their rights, they paid for it, their rules. If I paid for the big house, it would be a different story. Something kind of like this did happen last reunion, but the people involved were super subtle, and my cousin's mom is an exmo so she didn't care that he and his fiancee were sleeping together, since they had been for like 5 years (they lived in a house in Tucson together). That family had a whole wing of the reunion house to themselves anyway, and I only figured it out from context clues, and because I'm not a world-ignorant dupe like every mormon in my family apparently is.

Point is, I can see it both ways. If your brother got huffy and said a bunch of offensive shit, where he was clearly in the wrong, and still hasn't apologized about it, (which he probably won't; he's a TBM, and therefore morally above reproach, and can think and do no wrong, since he's got gawd on his side) I think it's in your right to not want him there. I think different people have different ways of looking at things like that, to be utterly simplistic about it. Some people might see a wedding as something where family absolutely has to be there regardless of personal disputes, or they might not. I'm not gonna judge you whatever you decide.

On the other hand, him not being able to go might give him a taste of what it's like to not to be at a wedding, just like all the unendowed people who don't get to be at other mormon couple's weddings. I mean, if you want to get really, really petty about it ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2016 06:57PM by midwestanon.

Yes I actually agree that he was well within his bounds to decide not to come to the family house on the basis of his beleifs. That wasnt what was originally said though. The request was for me and my sweetheart to come but sleep apart, like a pair of naughty children. We said no we wouldn't and there was family pressure to do so. In the end we decided not to go because we wanted my brothers four kids to go and enjoy their cousins and also for my mother to get the time with her grandchildren. We thought we were taking the high road. We only found out after that he didn't go because he was butt hurt that none of the other mormons were on his side and he felt like the bad guy. In hind sight, I wish we would have just gone and let him avoid it. I was mad about it for a while but mostly was indifferent. I didnt hate him or wouldnt avoid seeing him, but didnt make an effort either. So when it came time for our wedding i wasn't about to invite someone who had thrown a fit about our non marital status to our wedding. As i was well within my bounds to do. I will admit that I let my emotions get the better of me with the family attacks and pressure and bullying. So much so that I didnt want to proceed at this time.

"So when it came time for our wedding i wasn't about to invite someone who had thrown a fit about our non marital status to our wedding. As i was well within my bounds to do."

Ask yourself what your long term goals are. This all seems like short term thinking and "I was right!" which may not get you where you want to be as an extended family.

It comes down to the opinion of whomever owns the house. It sounds like it might be your parents. It also sounds like they were okay with the both of you coming, as were your other siblings.

So this is what I would have said to your brother -- "Okay. I'm sorry you won't be joining us. We'll miss you." He's a grownup and he gets to decide. Doing so might have convinced him that he held a minority opinion in the matter.

He gets to uphold whatever standards he wants as does everyone else. I don't see it as him throwing a fit, he just stated what he was and was not okay with. He was drawing a boundary, and you could have done likewise (The hosts/owners of the house get to set the rules. If it's okay with them, too bad for you, bro.)

Alternatively, you could have had a conversation with him about a solution that may have worked for everyone (i.e., you and your fiancé staying in a nearby motel.)

My opinion is that this was a relatively small problem that was blown out of proportion. I wouldn't let it ruin a family relationship. Instead I would be celebrating all those people who were willing to accommodate you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2016 07:39PM by summer.

You only thought you had "kept your family relationships intact." And, that was at a great personal cost sometimes, but, I'll bet your family felt it was a great personal cost to them as well.

The good part is now you know. The cards are on the table.

We, us Exmos, changed everything when we quit being Mormon. We are the ones who changed while our families stayed the same as best they could as we threw them off balance. Our Mormon families are not prepared and don't know what to do. Some shun, some accept, and most of the rest are just left in the middle like some kind of "Twilight Zone" trying to figure out the new dynamic.

Your family does not know how to make this work. They feel that they come as a unit and your exclusion of one of them at a family event is unacceptable to them. Your sister over-reacted and made things worse when she let you look behind the curtain of how the family really feels. She did you a favor though, because she put the ball in your court and in your family, you are the only one who can set the tone for the future. The cards are on the table and you hold the aces.

Call your brother and tell him you would like to start at square one. He met you for lunch. He wants to be your brother still no matter what has happened. You will never see eye to eye but you want to reach a place where you are comfortable around him.

Choose a better restaurant this time and have a heart to heart. Be truly honest with the intent of really understanding each other. Let him know how really hard it is to be around Mormons when you aren't one and yet are expected to abide by their rules instead of meeting in the middle. Let him tell you how hard it is for him to be around nonMormons. And, how hard it was to be excluded from your wedding, like, it is for the families of those who aren't worthy to attend a Temple Wedding and sit outside.

Why not look at this from a few more angles? Why not just give it one more well thought out shot?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2016 07:25PM by blueorchid.

You screwed up by discussing your guest list. It's your guest list, not your family's. You'd already established that by not inviting certain people. You opened yourself up for their approval and they withheld it.

In any such event, there's always a line you have to draw at who gets invited and who doesn't. There's a capacity limit at the least. Now, Weddings are often extended family affairs and not paid for by the bride and groom. If you weren't paying for everything then you do yield some control to whoever else is paying.

But if it was all yours, then you should have known that playing favorites and dividing the family was a minefield. If they want to get into it and play more family politics in return, you simply reiterate that you've invited them to the wedding and would be happy to see them there. Let them stew in their own juices and don't play their game beyond that. It's your event if you're paying for it and you set the rules.

You need to live your life happily on your own terms with or without their approval which ever they happen to give.

You unwittingly gave them control.

I'm sorry it turned out poorly for your event and family relations.

Squabbling over a summer a vacation is one thing, but a wedding is a major life event. If I were explicitly not invited to a close family member's wedding, I would take that not only as a message that I was not welcome to the event, but that I was being excluded from that person's life.

You are, of course, entirely within your rights to invite or not invite whomever you choose. Is it your intention to cut your brother out of your life entirely? Is that the message you meant to send? It's up to you if it is, but why would not expect your family to be upset by such a decision?

I'm not going to try to pass judgement on the original situation.

I think the main problem is dealing with the situation now. Everyone involved is too reactive and emotional. And I see a pattern of nobody working it out with the people involved before talking to other people about it and getting THEM worked up. You should have talked to your brother first, probably a long time ago, and he shouldn't have called up your mother to 'tattle' after you e-mailed him (which was also a way to avoid having a real life conversation). But then again, I don't know your family dynamics, and some people get really abusive when you call them on their shit. If you try to have a civil discussion and it turns abusive, inform them that if they don't calm down you'll hang up.

The best think you can do is to figure out what YOU think is the best way to move forward, and try not to get drawn in by their emotions. I liked the suggestion to figure out what you want the long-term result to be, and gear your decisions/actions to that end. And be super calm about whatever you decide. Make it clear that you are comfortable with your decision and that it's YOUR decision. Own it, and set the tone that you are in charge.

I do NOT think you should cancel your wedding because of this drama. That's giving in to the drama.

You might even consider discussing this with a family counselor.

Am I being a jerk for ignoring the emotions of this story, because I was so wrapped up in enjoying the irony of a Mormon family going bananas over the idea of not allowing a family member to attend a family wedding? I thought the Mormons lived for exclusive weddings that exclude even the closest of family.

Holy crap!! I didn't even think about that aspect of it!!

Oh for Gawd's sake, elope and only invite a few close, trusted friends. If the family doesn't like it, fuck 'em. This is your life, not theirs. Your wedding, your rules.

All I can say is there's some good advice and thoughts out there. Glad you felt OK sharing and hope the feedback helps. Wish you happiness with your spouse--it should be a happy day and I am certain it will be.

All that drama! Ignore the nonsense and hurt feelings and fits and screaming and yelling!
Set your own boundaries.

The family as acting like spoiled children expecting you to capitulate to their outrageous demands and so called rights.

Have the kind of wedding you and your fiance want. Invite all of them and refuse to discuss the past. Make no arrangements for them. They get to be adults and do that for themselves.
The past is over, done with, and if they can act like adults they will come. Otherwise, have someone put on guard so if they come and act out they will be ushered OUT!

REFUSE to put up with this ridiculous controlling, childish behavior.

Now----- go plan what you want and forget the fantasy of oh so lovely, loving, sweet folks joining you in your joy and happiness as they would rather act like five year olds and whine and cry, and scream and yell putting you down and demanding you do what they want!!

You may want to live quite separately from all of them for a long time as these people seem to be incapable of being supportive and loving.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2016 10:47PM by SusieQ#1.

My advice to anyone getting married is make lots of friends cause family will just disappoint you. Family want everything their way and they don't care how you feel about it. If you don't agree with them then there's something wrong with you. Family, for the most part, sucks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2016 11:53PM by Slumbering Minstrel.

Weddings are not worth the drama nor the crippling expenses. Why do you need 200 people to show up???

This is what Vegas was built for... to solve problems like this!

This is what Vegas was built for, to solve problems like this!

"We thought we were taking the high road."

The high road would have been to sleep separately in my opinion. A night or two, etc? Is it really that big of a deal? Or get a hotel nearby and still join in the family stuff.

Sounds like you want a "me, me, me" wedding at all cost. Those don't always turn out so well, as you might have noticed.

I am with you about the "me" wedding. If you are inviting two hundred people and it your decision who comes, you are the HOST. A host's job is to make sure everyone has a good time and that the celebration flows. That is why I would never even attempt it.

We had a "me,me" wedding. Two of us and a Justice of the Peace. It was about us after all and seemed too personal to even invite a Mormon family--us being gay and all and already together nearly thirty years. But I guess I'm just another old guy who sees things a little differently.

We did similarly....me and her, my two kids, her one kid, our friend officiating, my sitar teacher playing music.

The family was a little surprised at first, but it was no big deal, everyone gets alone great.

It was no big deal because no one was "not invited". We just didn't want a crowd or a big "to do" so we just had the wedding and then announced it.

You need to leave the family mess behind and opt for a destination wedding.

The Four Seasons in Hawaii will marry you at the beach, or wherever, and furnish the preacher.

Some upscale Las Vegas casinos will do the same and the ceremony can be surprisingly nice.

I've had to deal with similar family situations. I'm gay, and the issues started when I got serious with my boyfriend (husband now).

We live in Utah, and both of our families are in the Midwest. My boyfriend and I went home for Christmas together one year. When we arrived my Mom informed me we'd be sleeping in separate bedrooms. I figured it was her house, her rules, so we complied. (And we just waited until Mom and Dad went to bed and then had sex - duh!). The next few times we went home we got a motel instead. I knew it really bothered my Mom, but oh well. She finally decided she'd rather have us around and let us sleep in the same bedroom.

I had a big confrontation with my brother too. He and my sister-in-law were in Utah one December shortly after I met my boyfriend and wanted to meet him, so we got together. Not long after I got this nasty email from him saying I was forcing my gay lifestyle on home (even though he suggested we all get together) and that I didn't respect his religion. So I sent him back a long email where I refuted everything he accused me of, but the overall message was "go fuck yourself and stay the hell out of my life until you grow up and get your shit together.). He called back a few weeks later and apologized. That was 12 years ago and my husband still doesn't entirely trust him.

My point is that respect is a two way street. If they expect you to respect their beliefs they have to respect yours as well. I think you've gone out of your way to accommodate your asshole brother. Time to lay down and the law with your family. Tell them how you expect to be treated, and if they can't go along with that you don't want them in your life.

You should be able to plan any wedding you want. I'd say invite your family, including your brother. But let them know exactly what's going to happen (Wiccan minister, open bar, whatever), and tell them if they have problems with any of it you don't want them there. And do you have any big biker friends? I'd ask one to keep an eye on your family. Introduce him to your family and tell them that he'll be the one kicking them out if they step out of line.

And I should say that things have worked out quite well with my family. We all get along, and my husband is accepted as another member of the family. My Mom's going through chemo and I'm taking several weeks off work to help take care of her. But it took me standing my ground to let them know that I expect them to respect my life choices.

Are you paying for the wedding yourself? If so, plan whatever kind of wedding you want and invite whoever you want. If your parents are paying, then they actually do have a say in what goes on. The best thing is to just pay for whatever size of wedding you can afford. Small weddings can still have a lovely dress and a great cake!

Elope.
Travel to a destination. Spend money on a nice beachfront condo on VRBO.

Then after the wedding, throw a large open BBQ. We got married. Here are the pictures. And if any family member dares to ask why, say too much family drama, so we spent the money on ourselves.

This kind of thing is why I quit photographing weddings. Someone is always in a snit. Then enter the alcohol!