the simple fact that "God" concept is an illusion....
Their exposees of Mormonism helped thousands to discover reality....
Irony of ironies they are stuck at the same fantasy concept which delivers nothing of consequence in real life.

Are they beyond help, Wither under the same "Jesus" illusion?
What a huge waste of talent goes under the same predicaments they spent to free gullible people....

You may be atheist, and that's fine, but there is nothing delusional about believing that there may be a greater intelligence or higher creative/organizing principle in the universe. Believers can't prove that it exists and you can't prove that it doesn't exist. Science at the present time has its limits.

Westerners tend to anthropomorphize this principle, but not all believers do. In Taoism it is known as the Tao or "The Way." In the Star Wars fables it is known as "The Force." If people want to explore and think about this concept, what harm is it to anyone else?

There will always be ideologues who try to impose their views on others. If they are not religious ideologues, then they will be political ideologues. We should vigorously defend against religious and political extremism instead of worrying quite so much about what people do or do not believe.

I knew Sandra and Jerald in the 1960's and visited their store often. When I first met them, they still believed in the Book of Mormon. Jerald's writings and photo-mechanical reprints of LDS "hidden" documents helped me to comprehend what a falsehood Mormonism really is more than anything else.

However, I have never understood why the Tanners had to replace Mormonism with Christianity. I personally have found overwhelming evidence that it, like Mormonism, is clearly a created and ever changing myth.

It continues to baffle me how someone as sharp as Jerald could readily see the inconsistencies in Mormonism and yet completely fail to see similar ones in Christianity. Truly, wonders never cease.

Can you 'grasp the concept' of our galaxy moving 14 million mph towards a mystery we'll never know, but call "The Great Attractor"?
Can you grasp the concept of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, which makes up 95% of reality?
If you can you should get a job for NASA, since they can't.
http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/
Can you grasp the concept of trillions of "Ghost Particles" flowing through your body every second from every direction in the universe?
Can you grasp the concept of ghost particles flowing through the God Particle to make everything that matters?
If you can, you should go to work at CERN since they're still working on that concept.
Why do Atheists pretend that there is no mystery in the universe, when the universe is mostly mystery to us and always will be?

We've never seen Black Holes, we only found evidence for them. We weren't there for the Big Bang or we haven't found string theory particles, only results from testing and the evidence they leave behind.

So while we may find out there is spirits and ghosts and God (many parapsychologists and ghost hunters are searching for evidence and proof) we haven't found any logic, math, physical evidence, history, etc... To prove that Wotan, Osiris, Elohim, Ra, Krishna, Zues exists.

Therefore, atheists have proofs, results and evidence of dark energy, dark matter, Big Bang, etc... that we can see, repeat experiments on and communicate through languages and maths to future generations so they can expound on the principles. Yet the Judeo/Christian God is damned by their own creationist Bible and no other additions or explanations are forth coming. In the last book of "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy", God's last word to his creations was, "We apologize for the inconvenience." The inconvenient truths and history that led to things like Apartheid, slavery, the Inquisition, Male domination over women / children, wars for believes, witch burnings, etc...

Repeated experiments of the Big Bang?
Physical evidence of dark matter?

That's not how it works, my friend.

It was by and large atheists who came up with those concepts, so yes, they can "grasp" them. Carl Sagan is a well-known atheist who nevertheless was very much in awe of the universe and effectively communicated that awe to millions of people.

You don't need to be a theist to be amazed at the universe, nor to admit you don't have all the answers. Cosmologists don't know what dark matter and energy are, nor do they even know with much surety that they even exist, but it is the best explanation they have so far for what they observe.

And what makes you think the galaxy is "moving 14 million mph towards a mystery we'll never know"? Never is a very long time. I think we already have a pretty good idea what is happening, and will figure out more details as time goes on.

koriwhore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do Atheists pretend that there is no mystery
> in the universe, when the universe is mostly
> mystery to us and always will be?


Not ALL Atheists do this. Please don't lump us all together as if we all think alike. We do not.

So which of the millions of religions do those things prove? What religion should an atheist join because there are still mysteries in the universe we don't understand? What proof do you have that any of the things you named have anything that we would call sentience or gives one whit about humanity or people on an individual level? Just because these phenomena exist does not mean we should worship them. Should we become 21st century animists praying to the great attractor? Should we be performing chants to attract or repel the ghost particles? Is it a good thing or a bad thing to worship dark energy?

If these mysteries cannot judge the human soul or give guidelines on how humans should live their lives then they are no more worthy of worship or deification than gravity. They are a phenomena. Phenomena that we can study and learn about. Which is much better than placing them in the same realm as the inscrutable gods of religion.

When God is defined as "the sum total of the universe" I personally have no problem.

But, a personal god like the Mormon one, who listens to answer my prayers and appears to boys in sacred groves and yet does nothing when millions of innocent people are murdered by Nazis to "solve the Jewish problem"? That's a god I could never accept and I doubt any rational, thinking person could either.

Ahem. Guys. Thor saved the earth not long ago in The Avengers. Norse gods rule. They do. Odin became Santa by changing in his grey robe for a red one and his 8 legged horse for 8 reindeer. And hes the most popular dude in all the world. So go easy on the personal God concept. ;-)

Okay one word er sentence of clariification. While the mormon embodied god is a perv and liked Nazis, Thor is not and he kicked some serious hind end on the red headed Nazi guys decendents. And Thor doesnt have a harem.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2014 11:35AM by blankstare.

some people need the personification of a man-like God to affirm the significance of their values.


this is evident with Mormonism, where values & facts are so readily switched; it's more about the people (at the top) than it is about other realities.


That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Honestly why can't people deal with uncertainty. Saying you are SURE there is no God makes you no better than someone who is equally sure, equally condemning, equally condescending of those who don't believe in God. I get that you FEEL sure and that it makes your life easier and makes more sense to believe God doesn't exist and good for you, finding a life philosophy that brings you comfort and answers. But when you start putting others down for not agreeing with you, you're no better than those religious people.

So here is what I propose. Let's just all be grown up enough to admit that we don't know anything for sure and deal with our own fallibility. And let people believe what gets them through the day and provides them with a purpose. Because we don't KNOW anything, tough as that is for some people to admit, and we need to respect each others search for meaning. Religion only hurts people when it's used to belittle, hurt and demean others and, as you've shown, atheism can be used in just effectively to do that. What we need isn't more religion or less religion it's the courage to admit no one knows for sure and the respect to allow others to live their lives without our telling them what to do, or why our way is superior.

CA girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Honestly why can't people deal with uncertainty.
Because fossils exist. Certainity

> Saying you are SURE there is no God makes you no
> better than someone who is equally sure, equally
> condemning, equally condescending of those who
> don't believe in God.
I get that you FEEL sure
> and that it makes your life easier and makes more
> sense to believe God doesn't exist and good for
> you, finding a life philosophy that brings you
> comfort and answers.
Which God? Which philosophy? Which Theist? Which scriptures or writings? Ancient? New?

But when you start putting
> others down for not agreeing with you, you're no
> better than those religious people.
I'll let Bill Nye answer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbYJfwFgOU
>
> So here is what I propose. Let's just all be
> grown up enough to admit that we don't know
> anything for sure and deal with our own
> fallibility.
We do know many things though, We know what causes diseases now. We know that the Earth is just one planet orbiting a star on the edge of one small galaxy in an expanding universe.


And let people believe what gets
> them through the day and provides them with a
> purpose. Because we don't KNOW anything, tough as
> that is for some people to admit, and we need to
> respect each others search for meaning. Religion
> only hurts people when it's used to belittle, hurt
> and demean others and, as you've shown, atheism
> can be used in just effectively to do that.
No wars, witch burnings, subjugation of women, abuse of children was done to forward "atheism" or to protect "atheism" practices and teachings so that they could be usurped or changed by another atheist group.

What
> we need isn't more religion or less religion it's
> the courage to admit no one knows for sure and the
> respect to allow others to live their lives
> without our telling them what to do, or why our
> way is superior.
As I said before. Atheism ways are superior because they deal with truths, repeatable experimentation, writings and teachings , definable truths and logic that can be passed on and not just a "feeling".

?

+ ;o) Totally agree with CA girl here! Plus totally appreciate the Tanners and Grant Palmer for sharing their information and discoveries over the years.They have helped so many people wake up and leave Mormonism behind!

CA girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Honestly why can't people deal with uncertainty.
> Saying you are SURE there is no God makes you no
> better than someone who is equally sure, equally
> condemning, equally condescending of those who
> don't believe in God. I get that you FEEL sure
> and that it makes your life easier and makes more
> sense to believe God doesn't exist and good for
> you, finding a life philosophy that brings you
> comfort and answers. But when you start putting
> others down for not agreeing with you, you're no
> better than those religious people.
>
> So here is what I propose. Let's just all be
> grown up enough to admit that we don't know
> anything for sure and deal with our own
> fallibility. And let people believe what gets
> them through the day and provides them with a
> purpose. Because we don't KNOW anything, tough as
> that is for some people to admit, and we need to
> respect each others search for meaning. Religion
> only hurts people when it's used to belittle, hurt
> and demean others and, as you've shown, atheism
> can be used in just effectively to do that. What
> we need isn't more religion or less religion it's
> the courage to admit no one knows for sure and the
> respect to allow others to live their lives
> without our telling them what to do, or why our
> way is superior.

The level of certainty I've moved toward is in what is around me. All life is built on DNA which is chemistry. The power within DNA to evolve into the various lifeforms is the only higher power I can honestly acknowledge. Maybe God lives in DNA. Having rid myself of Mormon delusion, that's as far as I can go.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2014 12:04PM by Tom Padley.

Excuse me, Summer?
How is that possible these people are putting down Mormons for believing in Jesus And yet turn around believe the same version of Jesus?
this entity by the way had no physical influence on Humanity.
It is a pure fantasy created by Men. They should get it, the same way they exposed Mormonism.

Peel away stupid doctrines of Mormon Church, what is the difference?

Can't speak for other atheists, I don't pretend nothing, I spend most of my free time in the middle of the mysteries of all kinds..

The difference is I don't believe in a make believe in a Helpless entity, who is helpless himself to make a difference any part of Humanity...

How can Sandra, Grant believe in Jesus, when He propmises; "you can move Mountains"...
It's the worst charade Humanity invented.

But how is it different you putting down people for your version of Jesus - i.e. the non-existent Jesus? Personally, I think holding Mormons accountable to the beliefs they claim to profess is legitimate. They claim to believe in Jesus yet disregard whatever they find unpleasant. Religious people are just pointing out the contradictions to what Mormons say they are and what Mormons actually are and I see nothing wrong with that. Atheists do the same thing with Mormons, pointing out why their belief in God doesn't hold water but the difference is, Mormons don't claim to be atheists so you aren't pointing out their hypocrisy as much as their lack of logic. Other Christians are focusing more on their hypocrisy. It would be like you claiming to be an atheist but sneaking off to mass occasionally, just to be safe. Another atheist would probably feel justified in dismissing your beliefs because of your actions.

Amen to.that.

quinlansolo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excuse me, Summer? How is that possible these people are putting down Mormons for believing in Jesus And yet turn around
believe the same version of Jesus?

The Tanners are not putting Mormons down for believing in Jesus.

You sound just as preachy as any theist with this comment.

You should preface any atheistic comment with, "I believe", because you have no more empirical evidence for your beliefs than anyone else.

+1000

I look at it like this: radio waves have been floating around the "ether" of the universe for billions of years, but until the early 20th Century no one knew what a radio was, then men discovered that radio waves could be generated, transmitted and captured on the other end, leading to radio, television, satellites, RC airplanes for the kids, your cell phone & laptop, missions to Mars, etc.....

So it's possible that "god" is out there, but like radio waves (until the 20th century) no one knew what they were; so I'm not going to say there ISN'T a yet un-quantified entity out there, whether it be an invisible Santa Claus, the FSM, the Krell, a blob, the Crystalline Entity, or simple magnetism.

The obvious problem is when someone like Joseph Smith and TSCC claims ownership of whatever entity and gets detailed about what he/she/it/them want us to do to please them, or else....

The Mormon believes in his "church-defined" god without any direct proof of existence. The Mormon, for all intents and purposes, is closed minded in approach.

The Atheist says he cannot accept any god without direct physical proof. The Atheist is open to consider potential proof should it become available in the future.

Two very different approaches to the possible existence of god.

One is a logical, practical approach. The other is based on proof-less CULTISH teachings.

Do any atheist put Christians down?

I hope we don't,like them we vigorously attack their belief as they do to Mormons.

I'd bet serious money, they act like Mormons they criticize.

What type of harassment do you prefer; quiet ones?

How about harassment, abuse, extortion taxes you pay on the behalf of these A**holes that they don't have to pay a dime that we have to fork out on their behalf....

Should we stay silent against this monumental fraud stuck up our butts in the name of religion?

Who is harassing who?
I pay 35-40 cents for every dollar I earn can those Arschlochs claim the same?

What good they do on my & your behalf...?

Uh read your post. Putting down the Tanners for their Christian beliefs is exactly what you are doing.

Many things lead me out of the pervert's for profit business, but it was the Christians disproving the BOM that lead me to Atheism.

From November to December of last year I learned just how much I had been deceived and I promptly showed my kids what I had learned. Like the Ytube videos on the BoA and the big data video of the BOM. I had them read Under the Banner of Heaven and showed them that the true church of the pervert belonged to the FLDS. The LDS Inc was just a shell and for profit business.

So I was done but still looking at Christian websites and leading my kids to biblical Christianity. One website had a document, "The Book of Mormon and Math." I read that late in December.

Since I was leading my kids to biblical Christianity, what better way than to read the bible? So I bought The One Year Bible, NIV. It is formatted to take a portion from the OT, NT, Proverbs and Psalms in a daily format. We had it on all of our Kindles and were reading it out loud. Within the first three days, with the math paper fresh in my mind, we read Genesis. I had my kids read the math paper and we had a good laugh, but in my head I was thinking that christian just disproved the bible to me.

How can he believe the bible is the word of God?

But we kept going. I mean I just deconstructed their belief in the moronism, so I wasn't ready to do the same with Christianity. BUT by the time we got to day 7 and I had read the gems about mass genocide being OK for the special people of god,I was personally done. I was just making jokes and pointing out absurdities. We were reading it with funny voices, so it really did become a fun family activity. BUT on day 9 we read about Lot trying to give his virginal daughters to the mob that wanted to rape the angels of the lord so the daughters would be raped instead. How absurd--the angels of an all powerful god cannot be raped. I turned mine off told my kids this is a bunch of crap. How can anyone believe this nonsense? It is disgusting garbage.

The only way I could stomach the bible before was the moron's statement about we believe the bible to be the word of god so long as it is translated correctly. So with moronism disproved, it was ALL disproved to me.

Add to all of this the SkepticsAnnotatedBible website and my disgust for god is complete.

I want nothing to do with a prick like the god of the bible, who hates women and will kill whole groups for special people. It was all made up by the special people to justify their atrocities and make themselves more special.

Sorry this was so long. But I also don't understand how anyone can worship such a prick.

I'm always sorry when we start up a God vs No God thread. It's never a pretty sight. Too much incivility for my comfort zone.

I guess it can be surprising, or maybe even disappointing to find that even though we all came away from the same religion, when it comes to what we have replaced it with, we might have less in common than we thought.

People need to find their own way, though, and prefer not to be harrassed about it.

Do we mean a personal deity like Zeus, Athena, Thor (my favorite), Allah, or Elohim, or are we talking about some abstract and unknowable first cause or some other unknowable creator entity outside our time and space? It makes a difference.

As to the first group, I'm a strong atheist. I'm sure no such entity exists, and I don't care how often one of them helped you find your keys.

As to the second category, I'm a weak atheist. I'm unaware of any evidence indicating the existence of such an entity, but I'm open to the possibility. I'll consider any evidence offered. However, I don't see how any such entity has relevance to my life. It's just not very serviceable as a personal deity. However, in that regard, your mileage may vary.

And-that's-fine-with-me-ly yrs,

S

Per usual Schweizerkind nails it. Different god concepts have varying definitions and some of those definitions lead to contradictions and conclusions and can be logically proven untrue. Other god concepts are cognitively vacuous and simply do not mean anything. Some God concepts are simply synonyms for nature and are supported by logic and evidence (why people do not just stick the term nature is beyond me).

HH =)

Mormonism invites much of it's own criticism by openly proclaiming that they are "God's only true church" and openly attempt to convert others to their belief using varying forms of pressure.

Knowing what I know now, were I to connect with another faith, it would definitely have to be a non-proselytizing one even though I was once a "mission mormonary" myself. Oh, god, have I made some stupid mistakes along the way!

One little issue that is conveniently pushed aside when an atheist declares “There is no evidence for God” is the fact is that unless God is clearly defined in an understandable and scientific way it’s impossible to say whether there is acceptable evidence one way or the other.

Let’s pose a few questions.

How would a being capable of creating the totality of space and time appear to us?

Should such a being exist would we be any more capable of understanding him/her/it than we are of understanding how the universe could spring from nothing?

Such a being must be far beyond any human capacity to understand so what possible evidence could be asked for in order for his/her/its existence to be proven?

The only way that science can explain the existence of the universe is by way of a convenient theory that has no more evidence for it than does God. I’m talking of course about the extremely convenient (for science) singularity; something that defies all logic and reason and for which there can never be any proof. Even then, should such a thing exist, science would still be unable to show how it could spring into existence from nothing. The positing of a singularity would appear to be more akin to an attempt to cut God out of the equation than to a genuine scientific theory.

Perhaps the best approach to this issue would be to admit that we don’t know and be a little more tolerant towards those who have different beliefs.
Why is it so impossible for an atheist to do what many Christians do when talking about God and simply say, “I believe”? (I’m not talking about Mormons who ‘know’ their church is true)
Why must many atheists be so intolerant of anyone having a different belief to their own?

By the way, I’m not religious but I could never say, “there is no God” Obviously I’m not very bright compared to those who “know” with such certainly but at least I’m honest enough to admit it.