Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
This is a follow-up to my previous thread:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1768207
DW and I finally talked after this morning when she said, just before going to church, that she would move out as soon as she could find a place to live. All of this had followed on her recently being upset that I ref used to "choose to belive" TSCC is true.
She thought that what I was missing in order to believe was a "broken heart and Contrite spirit." What is that, a scripture reference?
Anyway, as a result of dinner last night with mormon friends and my not going to church with her this morning, she thought I was passive-aggressively trying to set up a situation where she would be forced to leave me rather than being honest enough to end our marriage on my own.
Last night at a table with five other couples (all mormons), I had the audacity to order a mixed drink with my dinner. (I don't mix my own drinks, so eating out is my opportunity to enjoy one, and I was not about to let the presence of Mormons get in my way.)
My TBM BIL joked to the waitress, "there's got to be one at every party." I joked back, "Yes, I'm the designated drinker." Everybody laughed and we all enjoyed our dinner.
This morning I woke DW to get ready for church and said that I would stay home today. That after our heated conversation on Thursday, I thought my attendance with her may have given her the false hope that I would still convert. I told her that I loved her and would go with her in the future if she wanted , but that today I needed to step back. That led up to the scene this morning after she was dressed and headed out the door.
When we finally talked, and we were both calm, I explained that I was heartbroken when she said she was moving out. She admitted that that was the purpose and quoted the thing about broken hearts and contrite spirits. However, she didn't expect to feel like such a "biatch" (her words, not mine) when she saw how heartbroken I was. She said it was a horrible thing to do to somebody who been more loving and supportive in the past three years than the almost 30 yes with her RM Ex.
She can't believe I love her and is constantly afraid that one day I will say enough is enough and finally leave her.
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1768207
DW and I finally talked after this morning when she said, just before going to church, that she would move out as soon as she could find a place to live. All of this had followed on her recently being upset that I ref used to "choose to belive" TSCC is true.
She thought that what I was missing in order to believe was a "broken heart and Contrite spirit." What is that, a scripture reference?
Anyway, as a result of dinner last night with mormon friends and my not going to church with her this morning, she thought I was passive-aggressively trying to set up a situation where she would be forced to leave me rather than being honest enough to end our marriage on my own.
Last night at a table with five other couples (all mormons), I had the audacity to order a mixed drink with my dinner. (I don't mix my own drinks, so eating out is my opportunity to enjoy one, and I was not about to let the presence of Mormons get in my way.)
My TBM BIL joked to the waitress, "there's got to be one at every party." I joked back, "Yes, I'm the designated drinker." Everybody laughed and we all enjoyed our dinner.
This morning I woke DW to get ready for church and said that I would stay home today. That after our heated conversation on Thursday, I thought my attendance with her may have given her the false hope that I would still convert. I told her that I loved her and would go with her in the future if she wanted , but that today I needed to step back. That led up to the scene this morning after she was dressed and headed out the door.
When we finally talked, and we were both calm, I explained that I was heartbroken when she said she was moving out. She admitted that that was the purpose and quoted the thing about broken hearts and contrite spirits. However, she didn't expect to feel like such a "biatch" (her words, not mine) when she saw how heartbroken I was. She said it was a horrible thing to do to somebody who been more loving and supportive in the past three years than the almost 30 yes with her RM Ex.
She can't believe I love her and is constantly afraid that one day I will say enough is enough and finally leave her.
Yes, Baldy, broken heart/contrite spirit is in the Bible (Psalm 51:17 - OT obviously).
But I note from a Google search that Mormon leaders have used it in conference talks. Of course, they would love the "contrite" and "broken" part.
I too laughed at your "designated drinker" comment, especially in front of all those Mormons!
I am so sorry to read that you are heartbroken. I wish your wife could see that as evidence, if she needs it, of your love for her.
Turns out you have the "broken heart" part of her demand down pat. Surely that is enough to work with, if you both love each other. But I know you can't do it on your own. Maybe more talk of your feelings in such a straightforward way will overcome her demands about what you must believe.
I have friends who are atheists while I remain a Christian. We are able to find common ground. Not that that compares to a marital relationship but I just wish that more Mormon spouses would see past the Mormon part of their lives and relate on a person-to-person basis.
All the best to you as you wage this great battle for your spouse. Always in the background though with true believers is the spectre of break-up and at some point it very sadly becomes a realistic choice or sad necessity.
Nobody can command another person to believe although unfortunately many believers try it (especially of the Mormon kind, it seems). Belief is not a switch you can flip on or off at will, imho. Maybe someday your wife will come to see that. I hope it's not too late by then.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2016 08:51PM by Nightingale.
But I note from a Google search that Mormon leaders have used it in conference talks. Of course, they would love the "contrite" and "broken" part.
I too laughed at your "designated drinker" comment, especially in front of all those Mormons!
I am so sorry to read that you are heartbroken. I wish your wife could see that as evidence, if she needs it, of your love for her.
Turns out you have the "broken heart" part of her demand down pat. Surely that is enough to work with, if you both love each other. But I know you can't do it on your own. Maybe more talk of your feelings in such a straightforward way will overcome her demands about what you must believe.
I have friends who are atheists while I remain a Christian. We are able to find common ground. Not that that compares to a marital relationship but I just wish that more Mormon spouses would see past the Mormon part of their lives and relate on a person-to-person basis.
All the best to you as you wage this great battle for your spouse. Always in the background though with true believers is the spectre of break-up and at some point it very sadly becomes a realistic choice or sad necessity.
Nobody can command another person to believe although unfortunately many believers try it (especially of the Mormon kind, it seems). Belief is not a switch you can flip on or off at will, imho. Maybe someday your wife will come to see that. I hope it's not too late by then.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2016 08:51PM by Nightingale.
All the good in her life is due to LDS, except, thirty years of mental torture, to the point of wondering if she might be insane.
Now, trusting your goodness and support, and "can't believe [you] love her."
That heart-breaking power play sounds like a bit of mental torture to me. She may need some non-LDS professional help, to help her find out why she would toy with you like that. I don't know her at all, but it sounds like she may need your help in holding up her shelf. Your non-mormon "mormon" resilience may be way too heavy a load of cog-dis, in which case I say, well done.
Now, trusting your goodness and support, and "can't believe [you] love her."
That heart-breaking power play sounds like a bit of mental torture to me. She may need some non-LDS professional help, to help her find out why she would toy with you like that. I don't know her at all, but it sounds like she may need your help in holding up her shelf. Your non-mormon "mormon" resilience may be way too heavy a load of cog-dis, in which case I say, well done.
I agree with the professional help, and what you said that made me think this:
"Anyway, as a result of dinner last night with mormon friends and my not going to church with her this morning, she thought I was passive-aggressively trying to set up a situation where she would be forced to leave me rather than being honest enough to end our marriage on my own."
You said that she lived with an abusive spouse for many years. Maybe she's still dealing with some emotional garbage from that, not trusting in your unconditional love, and she needs to sort that out.
But threatening to leave you? MESSED UP, and emotionally abusive. That's not okay.
"Anyway, as a result of dinner last night with mormon friends and my not going to church with her this morning, she thought I was passive-aggressively trying to set up a situation where she would be forced to leave me rather than being honest enough to end our marriage on my own."
You said that she lived with an abusive spouse for many years. Maybe she's still dealing with some emotional garbage from that, not trusting in your unconditional love, and she needs to sort that out.
But threatening to leave you? MESSED UP, and emotionally abusive. That's not okay.
This may be way out of line, but I have to wonder if there's church "prompting" influence, well, influencing her.
>>She said it was a horrible thing to do to somebody who been more loving and supportive in the past three years than the almost 30 years with her RM Ex.
I don't like the way that she is playing with your emotions. I agree with those who say that she may need counseling. And quit waking her up to go to church. She is an adult and can figure out how to set an alarm clock.
I would just sit her down and tell her, no more game playing. I would tell her that she gets a lot of positive things with you but that one negative (at least in her viewpoint) is that you will never join the Mormon church. She has to think it through and make a decision about what she wants to do about that.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 12:54AM by summer.
I don't like the way that she is playing with your emotions. I agree with those who say that she may need counseling. And quit waking her up to go to church. She is an adult and can figure out how to set an alarm clock.
I would just sit her down and tell her, no more game playing. I would tell her that she gets a lot of positive things with you but that one negative (at least in her viewpoint) is that you will never join the Mormon church. She has to think it through and make a decision about what she wants to do about that.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 12:54AM by summer.
It shows up in the Bible; Joseph Smith recognized it as a good way to get a pliable, submissive group of followers, liked it, and ran with it.
Scripture Chase time!
Psalms 34:18
The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
2 Nephi 2:7
Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
3 Nephi 9:20
And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
3 Nephi 12:19
And behold, I have given you the law and the commandments of my Father, that ye shall believe in me, and that ye shall repent of your sins, and come unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Behold, ye have the commandments before you, and the law is fulfilled.
Moroni 6:2
Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
D&C 59:8
Thou shalt offer a sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in righteousness, even that of a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
She's saying that you're too filled with pride to give the church a chance. Mormon men are "church-broke"; you're not. It's really odd that she's accusing you of being passive-aggressive, as she's the one that's separating to try to manipulate you to bend to her will. She's also trying to pin the blame on you, accusing you of "forcing" her to leave. It's never a Mormon's fault, ever, because they're all so righteous.
Leaving you because she's scared you might leave her (but have shown no inclination to do so)… that's about as self-sabotaging an action as I can imagine.
It appears that, at least for the moment, your wife is putting the cult over you, because that's what cultists are trained to do. She's unable to comprehend that you've been a good husband, not in spite of you being non-Mormon, but actually *because* you're a non-Mormon.
Scripture Chase time!
Psalms 34:18
The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
2 Nephi 2:7
Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
3 Nephi 9:20
And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
3 Nephi 12:19
And behold, I have given you the law and the commandments of my Father, that ye shall believe in me, and that ye shall repent of your sins, and come unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Behold, ye have the commandments before you, and the law is fulfilled.
Moroni 6:2
Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
D&C 59:8
Thou shalt offer a sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in righteousness, even that of a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
She's saying that you're too filled with pride to give the church a chance. Mormon men are "church-broke"; you're not. It's really odd that she's accusing you of being passive-aggressive, as she's the one that's separating to try to manipulate you to bend to her will. She's also trying to pin the blame on you, accusing you of "forcing" her to leave. It's never a Mormon's fault, ever, because they're all so righteous.
Leaving you because she's scared you might leave her (but have shown no inclination to do so)… that's about as self-sabotaging an action as I can imagine.
It appears that, at least for the moment, your wife is putting the cult over you, because that's what cultists are trained to do. She's unable to comprehend that you've been a good husband, not in spite of you being non-Mormon, but actually *because* you're a non-Mormon.
The scripture that seems more to the point than the "broken
heart and contrite spirit," is this one:
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and
if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and
the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were
your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1 Corinthians 7:13-14
Ask your wife if she can find anywhere in a conference talk, or
a lesson manual, or an Ensign article where wives are told that
they should leave an unbelieving husband. What she is doing is
totally contrary to the doctrine of the LDS Church.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 01:14AM by baura.
heart and contrite spirit," is this one:
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and
if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and
the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were
your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1 Corinthians 7:13-14
Ask your wife if she can find anywhere in a conference talk, or
a lesson manual, or an Ensign article where wives are told that
they should leave an unbelieving husband. What she is doing is
totally contrary to the doctrine of the LDS Church.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 01:14AM by baura.
Thank you all so much for putting "broken heart, contrite spirit" in context, and for your comments and advice.
Last night she had nightmares where she was frequently saying "don't leave me, don't leave me", and this morning while I was in the shower I could hear her almost screaming, "Baldy! Where are you? Are you here?"
I love DW, though I'm not blind to her issues. One of the things we talked about yesterday was finding a therapist for her. Actually, she was the one who suggested it, but was afraid that I would think she was crazy. I laughed and said she would be crazy not to. Besides, I'd been to therapy myself when I left the Catholic church years ago and floundered a bit trying to find a moral compass of my own design without all of the guilt and baggage. People talk about "Catholic guilt"; Catholics are pikers compared to Mormons.
DW has six kids (the youngest in grad school), all of whom had left TSCC as soon as they graduated from high school, though one has recently returned. Of those six, four of them are very, very angry with DW and have left a number of profanity-laced phone messages and texts in the past week. It's mostly related to DW leaving their father six years ago (which he never lets them forget) and her defense of their hated half-brother (from DW's marriage before converting and marrying the RM). She thinks that they're angry and messed up (which they are) because she didn't read enough scripture, pray more, be more diligent in her callings. She's also realizing now that maybe she should have spent more time simply being their mother and not trying to be a temple-worthy spouse for her inactive RM ex in the celestial kingdom. It's a paradox, I know. So much more that could be said, but I'm sure many of you can easily fill in the blanks from your own experiences.
Anyway, she's got a lot going on...more than I had even realized...and she was trying to deal with it on her own rather than trusting me to support her. I AM supporting her, and we'll get through it together.
Thanks again for your kind words and support, as well.
Last night she had nightmares where she was frequently saying "don't leave me, don't leave me", and this morning while I was in the shower I could hear her almost screaming, "Baldy! Where are you? Are you here?"
I love DW, though I'm not blind to her issues. One of the things we talked about yesterday was finding a therapist for her. Actually, she was the one who suggested it, but was afraid that I would think she was crazy. I laughed and said she would be crazy not to. Besides, I'd been to therapy myself when I left the Catholic church years ago and floundered a bit trying to find a moral compass of my own design without all of the guilt and baggage. People talk about "Catholic guilt"; Catholics are pikers compared to Mormons.
DW has six kids (the youngest in grad school), all of whom had left TSCC as soon as they graduated from high school, though one has recently returned. Of those six, four of them are very, very angry with DW and have left a number of profanity-laced phone messages and texts in the past week. It's mostly related to DW leaving their father six years ago (which he never lets them forget) and her defense of their hated half-brother (from DW's marriage before converting and marrying the RM). She thinks that they're angry and messed up (which they are) because she didn't read enough scripture, pray more, be more diligent in her callings. She's also realizing now that maybe she should have spent more time simply being their mother and not trying to be a temple-worthy spouse for her inactive RM ex in the celestial kingdom. It's a paradox, I know. So much more that could be said, but I'm sure many of you can easily fill in the blanks from your own experiences.
Anyway, she's got a lot going on...more than I had even realized...and she was trying to deal with it on her own rather than trusting me to support her. I AM supporting her, and we'll get through it together.
Thanks again for your kind words and support, as well.