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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 01:33PM

Around 18:30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8MI6nyvTNw

Joseph Smith was murdered not martyred in Illinois? Isn't this telling? Makes me doubt Holland's faith.

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Posted by: Alpiner ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 02:13PM

By definition, everybody that gets martyred has also been murdered.

It's a pretty semantic nit to pick.

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Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 02:17PM

Alpiner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By definition, everybody that gets martyred has
> also been murdered.
>
> It's a pretty semantic nit to pick.


I agree. Everyone agrees he was murdered. Referring to Carthage in neutral terms doesn't really mean anything.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 02:23PM

I disagree. In my mind it is like saying Jesus was murdered instead of all the other ways Christian's say Jesus was killed.

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Posted by: ASteve ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 05:41PM

Not all, the jurors in the trial of his killers did NOT agree it was murder.

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Posted by: peculiargifts ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 05:40PM

The point is that he has been portrayed as having been martyred. To downgrade that to "murdered" is a very large semantic matter. *Not* everyone who is murdered is martyred. Martyrdom is a much more specific concept. It carries far greater emotional weight to the true believers whom I know. Backing away from that is a very telling matter.

It would almost be as if TSCC or its leaders were trying to quietly change what used to be taught, due to the inability to keep the lies alive.

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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 03:30PM

I prefer "executed".

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Posted by: East Coast Exmo ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 08:28AM

He was released from his calling with extreme prejudice.

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Posted by: madalice ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 03:49PM

I look at it as he got himself shot up in a gun fight.


Most mormons would disagree because they don't know he had a gun.

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Posted by: saanhetna ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 03:57PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't he or Hyrum take the first shot.
I think I've forgotten how to spell Hyrum...lovely.

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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 05:10PM

I am not sure of the sequence of events (I doubt anyone actually knows), but my guess is that the Smith brothers fired first as the mob ascended the stairs. I do not blame them one bit, since they were entitled to defend their worthless hides, but the idea of meek and willing martyrs is a joke.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 05:22PM

Facsimile 3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the idea of meek and willing martyrs is a joke.

Like little lambs to their slaughter....

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 05:27PM

Re-posting some of my old comments on this subject:

My online Webster's defines "martyr" as:

1 : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion

2 : a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle

3 : VICTIM; especially : a great or constant sufferer

Neither of those definitions apply to Joseph Smith's case. He didn't voluntarily choose to suffer death for religious beliefs; he was in jail because:

He ordered the illegal destruction of a printing press and office which had published a newspaper exposing his secret, illegal polygamy practice and the secret, illegal shadow government he was forming.

To avoid his arrest on charges of inciting a riot springing from his order, he illegally ordered the state-sanctioned militia, the "Nauvoo Legion", to prevent lawmen from entering Nauvoo to arrest him.

When his arrest seemed imminent anyway, Smith fled the state; he was persuaded to return and face justice when his wife and friends called him a coward for fleeing.

While in Carthage Jail, he allowed two guns to be smuggled in for their protection. Martyrs do not fight back. They choose to die for their beliefs.

While in jail, fearing that vigilantes would storm it and kill them, Smith smuggled an order out to Jonathan Dunham, the Nauvoo Legion commander, to defy state law, march to Carthage, and rescue them. Dunham refused to obey Smith's illegal order. Martyrs do not try to escape their fate; they have resigned themselves to die for their beliefs.

When the mob stormed the jail, Smith's final act was to go to the window and attempt to utter the Masonic 'call of distress,' which is to raise both arms in the air and cry, "O Lord My God! Is there no hope for the widow's son?" That call is supposed to make any fellow Masons in the area come to his aid. Since Smith had earlier sent Dunham the order to come rescue them, and most members of the Nauvoo Legion were members of Smith's Masonic Lodge, he hoped that some of them or other Masons in the mob were there to rescue them. But they weren't. Smith was shot before he could even finish uttering the call of distress.

All of Smith's actions in his final days show that he desperately worked to avoid his fate. Martyrs do not seek to avoid their fate; they have resigned themselves to it. And Smith did not die for any religious beliefs or noble principles; he was murdered by an outraged vigilante mob because of his numerous offenses against the law and decent society. Therefore, Joseph Smith was not a martyr.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 05:37PM

Thank you Randy. Holland's not using the word is telling. It tells me that for him martyr is a stretch given the "rough stone" was rolling over printing presses and such.

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Posted by: ASteve ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 05:47PM

You correctly cite the two crimes he was charged with, but he was only in jail because of the second one. Those only charged with the destruction of the printing press were not required to stay in jail, they were released pending their trial on that charge. Only those charged with the additional charge of treason were required to stay in jail. Some of them left, and two stayed anyway.

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 11:04PM

"You correctly cite the two crimes he was charged with, but he was only in jail because of the second one."

I originally wrote those remarks to some TBMs who were making the typical ignorant assertion "Joseph Smith was jailed on false charges! He was martyred for his religious beliefs!" blah blah blah. My remarks were intended to counter those TBMs' assertions.

Here's some more documentation I wrote years ago while debating TBMs:

A Mormon wrote:

>>>Hate to point it out to you, but when he ordered the destruction of the
>>>Expositor, he violated no law at that time,

And Randy replied:

>>The actual criminal charge brought against Joseph Smith for the Expositor
>>destruction was "riot." When his arrest became imminent for the riot charge,
>>Smith declared martial law and activated his Nauvoo Legion to prevent his
>>arrest and extradition. Joseph Smith was then arrested for "treason"
>>against the state of Illinois.

To which "Ninja X" replied:

>And your source for this is...where?

"Joseph Smith, acting as mayor, ordered the city marshal to destroy the
newspaper and press without delay and instructed the major general of the
Nauvoo Legion to have the militia assist. Shortly after eight o'clock that
evening, citizens and legionniares marched to the 'Expositor' office and
smashed the press, scattering the type as they did so. This act infuriated the
non-Mormons of Hancock County, who saw it as a final act of contempt for their
laws. The 'Quincy Whig' denounced the 'high-handed outrage' and said that if
this was a specimen of 'Mormon attitude towards law and rights it is not
surprising that the Missourians were raised to madness and drove them from the
state.'.....At Warsaw Thomas Sharp said, 'We hold ourselves at al times in
readyness to co-operate with our fellow citizens...to exterminate, utterly
exterminate, the wicked and abominable Mormon leaders.'....Advocating an attack
upon the Mormon city, he screamed in his headlines, 'Strike them!' for the
time has fully come.' To provide justification for a march on Nauvoo, charges
of promoting a riot were made against Smith and several Mormon leaders, and
Constable David Bettisworth was sent to Nauvoo on June 12 to apprehend them.
When Bettisworth reached Nauvoo, Smith refused to go to Carthage, fearing his
life would be endangered. He said he would stand trial before any judge in
Nauvoo. To prevent Bettisworth from taking him, he secured a writ of habeas
corpus from a city court and later was tried and acquitted before a non-Mormon
judge. When Bettisworth came back to Carthage without his prisoner, the
reaction of the old citizens was nearly hysterical....One citizen remarked,
'Joe has tried the game too often.' The Carthaginians sent messengers...urging
armed men to come to Carthage to take Smith into custody. Emissaries were sent
to Governor Ford, charging that Smith had defied the law and asking Ford to
bring the state militia...In the face of an imminent attack on his city, Smith
declared Nauvoo under martial law and called out the Legion, a defensive action
which later led to treason charges being levied against him at
Carthage.....Ford had learned of the excitement and decided to intervene.....he
wrote the Mormon leader requesting that evidence be shown to justify the
actions taken against the 'Expositor.' After reviewing this and counter
evidence from the anti-Mormons, Ford wrote Smith on the next day, denouncing
the city's proceedings as unlawful and demanding that those involved in the
move against the Expositor submit to the processes of the law at Carthage."
("Carthage Conspiracy", Oaks and Hill, pp. 15-16.)

>>>nor did he violate the First Amendment at that time either.

>> If Joseph Smith had not died soon afterwards, and the "Expositor"
>>publishers had pressed civil charges, one charge against Smith
>>would have been violation of rights of free speech.

>Of course, if that were true, that case would have been for naught. There
>was no guarantee of free speech at that time as we know it. The right of
>free speech at that time only pertained to national laws, as it had not been
>extended to the states via the 14th admendment. In short, the case would
>have sunk...badly. You should have read up on your history.

Although the Bill of Rights was formally extended to the states in 1868,
freedom of speech and of the press had been recognized as an inalienable right
since the Peter Zenger case in New York in 1735. Zenger was tried for libel
for criticizing the British government, and he was acquitted because his
writings were true. Freedom of the press has been upheld in the US since that
time.
"Beginning with Virginia in 1776, state after state wrote the idea of a free
press into its constitution. In 1778, Massachusetts rejected a proposed
constitution because it did not contain such a provision. Today, all state
constitutions have a provision guaranteeing freedom of the press. Several
states ratified the Federal Constitution itself only after being assured that
the document would be amended to protect freedom of expression. Amendment 1 to
the United States Constitution states that 'Congress shall make no
law...abridging the freedom...of the press.' "
(World Book)

I assume that Illinois had such a law guaranteeing a free press, because both
Governor Ford and the
"Expositor" publishers pointed to Smith's violation of freedom of the press in
their complaints against him:

"General Smith,...I attribute the last outbreak to the destruction of the
'Expositor,' and to your refusal to comply with the writ issued by Esq.
Morrison. The press in the United States is looked upon as the great bulwark
of freedom, and its destruction in Nauvoo was represented and looked upon as a
high-handed measure, and manifests to the people a disposition on your part to
suppress the liberty of speech and of the press; this, with your refusal to
comply with the requisition of a writ, I conceive to be the principal cause of
this difficulty, and you are, moreover, represented to me as turbulent and
defiant of the laws and institutions of your country."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 384.)

"We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph
Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms;
which we verily know and are not accordant and consonant with the
principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles; and for that purpose, and
with that end in view, with an eye single to the glory of God, we have
dared to gird on the armor, and with God at our head, we most solemnly
and sincerely declare that the sword of truth shall not depart from the
thigh, nor the buckler from the arm, until we can enjoy those glorious
privileges which nature's God and our country's laws have guarantied
(sic) to us -- freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and the
right to worship God as seemeth us good."
(William Law, Francis Higbee, 'Nauvoo Expositor')

The violation of the 'Expositor's' rights to free speech was only half of
Smith's error; the other half being that he ordered its destruction without due
process; that is why he was arrested for inciting riot. His excuse for its
destruction was that the paper was a 'public nuisance'; however, the
'Expositor' does not contain a hint of inciting to riot, or to disturbing the
public peace.
Its only 'crime' was that it criticized Joseph Smith, exposed his secret
practice of polygamy, his financial irregularities, and his plans to create a
theocratic government headed by himself, and it called for Nauvoo citizens to vote
against Hyrum Smith in the legislative election.

Even LDS apostle (and lawyer) Dallin Oaks conceded that Smith had "no legal
justification for the destruction of the Expositor press."
(Carthage Conspiracy, p. 26.)

Smith had yet another motive to rid himself of the threat of William Law:

"The marriage to the Lawrence sisters became public knowledge when William Law,
Joseph's second counselor in the First Presidency, became alienated from the
prophet......On May 23 he filed suit against the Mormon leader in Hancock
County Circuit Court, at Carthage, charging that Smith had been living with
Maria Lawrence 'in an open state of adultery' from October 12, 1843, to the day
of the suit. In response, Smith flatly denied polygamy in a speech delivered
on May 26: '[The charges against me are false].....What a thing it is for a
man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can
only find one.....[I can prove them all perjurers.]' As polygamy was illegal
under US law, Smith had little choice but to repudiate the practice."
(In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, pp. 476-477.)

As it played out, Smith's method of 'proving them all perjurers' was not to
take them to court, as would have been proper, but to attempt to silence them
without due process by destroying their
printing press.
Unfortunately, the later admission of the polygamy practice, along with the
revelation of the organization of the "Council of Fifty," and of Joseph Smith
having himself crowned as "King of Israel," showed that what the
'Expositor' publishers wrote was the truth. Smith had the press destroyed not
because it lied, but because it revealed his true secret acts. Smith realized that
if his secret acts and plans became public, his empire would crumble. He knew
that he couldn't sue the publishers, because he would lose; therefore, his
destruction of the press was a desperate act of lawlessness, done purely to
maintain his power; he miscalculated the retaliation from non-Mormons, and it
led directly to his death two weeks later.

In America, you don't mess with freedom of the press.

Randy J.

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Posted by: Delila ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 12:42AM

In order for the word "Martyr" to apply to Smith, Mormons have had to modify THEIR definition as "He died for his beliefs".
In doing so their definition now applies to MILLIONS who have ever died in war if they died for their country or their fellow soldiers--no matter which side they fought on.
Even suicide bombers fall under the LDS definition of "Martyr"--which kinda dilutes the meaning of the word, I would think.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 06:19PM

Repaid

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Posted by: God's Executive Secretary ( )
Date: December 10, 2014 06:20PM

IIRC, Joseph shot and wounded one man. He shot and killed two men. Then he was killed at the window.

Hymn: Killed in a Gun Fight (sung to Praise to the man)

Praise to the manwhore who was shot in a gunfight,
Joseph attacked three while batt'ling for his life.
One man was wounded while two others were slaughtered,
Murdered by Joseph who bed and stole men's wives.

Hail to the kil-ler, who fell from a win-dow!
Swindler and trickster, was shot and died in pa--in.
Mingling with ghosts he can plan for his future,
Pervert and scoundrel he'll rot with brother Cain.

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Posted by: Alpiner ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 12:41AM

Do you have a cite to your sources regarding him killing two men?

Most info I've seen indicates he just fired into the crowd, but I've never seen anything detailing who died.

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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 08:18AM

My understanding is that Utah Mormons made the claim about killing two men as some kind of boast about their hero prophet.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 11:48AM

Alpiner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most info I've seen indicates he just fired into
> the crowd, but I've never seen anything detailing
> who died.

Because actual deaths make a killer and not firing into a crowd.

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Posted by: Lost ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 12:21AM

The only thing murdered in Illinois was the truth...

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Posted by: reuben nli ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 08:39AM

wait a second...Holland said he was murdered and didn't say martyred???

I think that must have been intentional, because you know, Holland is no dodo.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 11:50AM

reuben nli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that must have been intentional, because
> you know, Holland is no dodo.

Sounded so to me. Holland intentionally used the word murdered. Assassinated would have been more accurate and less incendiary. With "murdered" Joseph is more a victim than a theocratic despotic major assassinated in custody.

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