I came out to my wife 7 months ago. To say it was devastating to her is a complete understatement. We live in China. Church is a huge ordeal. It's a total of 7 hours every Sunday. We have to hire a driver to take the kids to activities during the week. My TBM DW is a counselor in the RS. When she has meetings it's an all-day event. I haven't been to church since April (except to listen to my DD speak at District Conference and to watch the primary program. I get up on Sunday mornings, make a nice breakfast, and help get the kids ready for church. While they're at church I clean and get dinner ready. I sit with them every night during BofM reading and have family prayer with them. We even do FHE with a full-blown lesson (thanks to DW) almost every week. I'm doing all I can to help DW not feel alone but I'm still losing her!! She is so depressed. She cries a lot and is really angry. Last night she told me "maybe we can't work this out". We're not in an area where we can see a counselor. She says there's only one thing I can do to help her and that's to go back to church. I can give her the WORLD but I can't give her that!! I am happier than I've ever been! I just don't know what to do to help her be happy. Doesn't TSCC bring happiness??? How come I'm the one who's happy? Shouldn't it be the other way around?? SHe tells me that my happiness is temporary. Maybe I should go back to church so that I can be happy like her!! (Not in a million years!!) How long does it take for TBMs to be happy? I don't even care if she deconverts. I just want her to be happy.

Here happiness is based on the ideal of the entire family being a "perfect church family."

She may well be right in saying it isn't possible to work it out. For her, being LDS is prerequisite to being a good husband.

Sorry, but you seem to have two options. At least pretend to be LDS faithful to make her happy and be mostly miserable yourself. Or prepare for your marriage to end.

ask her to honor the 11th article of faith.... tell her you will support her choice to continue in the church..... and gently ask her why it's making her so miserable. Shouldn't
Gods gospel make us more fulfilled?

There is depression and anxiety counseling online at

https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome

https://ecouch.anu.edu.au/welcome

She is demanding that you surrender sovereignty of your own mind in order to preserve the status quo. Worse, she claims her happiness depends upon it.

To an outsider this looks like a power struggle. You want the power to transform your life, and she wants the power to stop you.

When Mormons speak of family values, this is what they mean. I have lived with Mormons, and I know that heck hath no fury as a Mormon who hears Mormonism scorned.

Your title question has a disturbing answer, I'm afraid. It will go on as long as you allow it.

Making your happiness dependent on the actions of another is a sure recipe for disaster. You can't make her happy -- how she chooses to feel about your choice is entirely up to her.

I wish you well but it sounds like the church's hold on her is strong.

Hate to break it to you, but she never did care about you. She is married to the church. She just needs you to satisfy her true lover (church). Her image in the morg depends on having a righteous priesthood holder. Her eternal marriage to the church depends on having you active.

She can replace you, but not the church.

So not only is the church a scam, but so is marriage.

Isn't reality great?

Your only hope is to explain all this to her and ask her if she ever did care about you, or was it all about the church.

Free Man has it pegged!

They marry the Church. Your job us to be Peter Priesthood.

Precious family dressed in white. Some women really, really want to believe that is going to happen for them through Mormonism.

the church is not making her happy, even though SHE is serving and obeying. Where is the promised peace and happiness for her? Instead of bringing peace, the rigidity of expectations is causing problems.

Does she think she will be happier, or life will be better for her and the kids if she divorces and attends as a single mother?

I do think you both should try some long distance therapy if there is no counselor close by. I know someone who does life-coaching on the phone. It works just fine.

BTW, I don't think any of this means she doesn't love you. I just think she has to adjust her thinking. This isn't what she signed up for when she married you. Eternal marriage and family was possibly the most important goal of her life. NOW she has to give that up. Of course it's hard on her. But maybe you can probe that dream a little. What exactly did that dream consist of? Multiple wives for you? Hmmmm. Is that really so great?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2014 11:33PM by imaworkinonit.

I love this forum!! Thanks for the links and advice. I know that odds aren't really in our favor but there are couples out there who make it. I'm still willing to fight for her but just don't know how long I can hold on. . .

I am in your same boat. And I really wish you well man. My dw has been up and down and up again. She has periods where things are ok, and then she freaks out due to being upset about the church issues.

I am fighting too, but I feel the same way. I don't know how much more of it I can take.

Hold on if you can, but don't be afraid to break away if you need too. That is advice that I need to listen to myself.

It's been 7 months since you told her. Grieving a major loss takes an average of 2 years. She's coping with the deaths of who you've been and who she's been in relation to you and how she thought your lives would play out. She may be fearful and wondering what else might disappear that she thought she could count on.

Can you put yourself in her place? Say, 3 years ago or at some point when your faith was solid, if she had come out to you, and you were living in China...

It sounds like you're being supportive on Sundays and participating through the week. That will help rebuild her trust.

Also, her behavior might make more sense if you read up on the stages of grief. In many ways, she's sick with grief. Can you see her as someone who's "come down with something" that's gonna last awhile?

And yes, counseling.

Maybe it's not either you go back to church or you break up. Maybe letting some time pass is a 3rd option.

this is the most solid advice thus far, IMHO

While donbagley and I would disagree on many things, he and Free man are absolutely right. However, reason and logic rarely appeal to TBM’s so your options might be limited to the following.

You might try asking her to read the Bible rather than blindly following the doctrines of men. 1 Corinthians 7:14 would be a good place to start.
“For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.”

If she is considering divorce then again you should remind her of Malachi 2:16 a book that the LDS claims as accurate when it wishes to force people into paying tithing. That verse includes the words “I hate divorce says the Lord”

Point out to her Matthew 5:32
“But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

Presumably the above would also apply to women and although you may not personally believe these things your wife certainly should if she claims to be a Christian.

Where in China are you? Are you a convert or an expat? Do you speak Chinese? Which kind? Are you anywhere near Wuhan or Souzhou? If so, I have good friends living in both cities who might be able to help you find a therapist. Possibly in English but might also be in French or German.

Being in China there is only one place for her and the kids to go to continue the culture they know. The church. Where would she go for alternative avenues? In the states there are more possibilities, but in china you are isolated. The church keeps her grounded.

Maybe you will need to go for her. Maybe even tell her that you will go but not for reactivation, only because you love her and hate the church. Yeah, tall order I know.

Ask her if she really, cares what Christ taught and ask if bishops and prophets get to undermine marriages by playing some kind of "Trump Christ's teachings" card.

Here is what Christ taught:

1 Corinthians 7:10-16:
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.
14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.

16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?


I know this doesn't really solve your problem, but it may bring your wife some peace of mind.

Amen! However, TSCC does not believe that scripture. Instead, bishops advise their sheeple to leave the unbeliever, further evidence of the absolute falsity of moism.

Having lived abroad (Europe - nothing as exotic as Asia), I also agree that the church likely provides a bit of "home" for your wife. Living abroad is harder on a non-working spouse, IMO, as the working spouse has a place to go each day, work colleagues to have lunch with, etc. Expat life is really hard work, IMO. The small things loom so large (how to run the washer/dryer when all of the instructions and the buttons are in a foreign language). What do the buttons on the oven mean?

What does the warning sign say when you know it says "Warning" but you can't read what you're being warned about. Even grocery shopping can be a real challenge. Europe is helpful because they put a small picture of a horse on the horse meat. Can't imagine shopping for food in China.

So, I really can relate to the fact that your wife is likely caught up in church activities not just as a true true believer but as a source of comfort and familiarity in a strange land -- not to mention the trading of tips (in English!) on how to manuever daily life as an expat.

I agree that involvement in expat groups may help -- but while I enjoyed them, for a TBM it may not be that satisfactory as the expat culture usually involves a fair amount of drinking (not to mention truly adult conversation which many TBM wives don't really understand).

Also, for non-working wives, the children's school (assuming they attend an American School) can be a source of friendship. But, again, I suspect the moms get together for wine and cheese, so a TBM wife can feel out of place.

Sadly, I think you have a more difficult task even than other men on these boards, as living so isolated in such a different culture probably makes your wife cling even tighter to the church.

Wishing you the best.

I also was going to point out that culture shock and isolation are increasing her investment in the LDS community.

It will help both if you if you can find other social groups that can serve as pseudo family. International school, clubs, play groups, American Club - find something she can get involved in and find closer friends. I think it will help. It's the nonworking spouse who bears the bring of an international transfer/expat situation. She is thd one grocery shopping and dealing with teachers - without a bilingual support staff to help or provide friendship. That well-documented issue is going to make this harder for her. So be supportive in that regard as well.

It may be too, she is just plain jealous of you not going to church anymore. I'm sorry, but even in my truest believing days, I dreaded going to church. It was just one big long guilt fest. It's hard to believe anything has changed since I haven't been going these many years. And 7 FUCKING HOURS? Are you kidding me? See, it becomes clearer she's more likely very jealous of you and wants to manipulate you into accompanying her on the long ass trip/day.

That would be a huge coincidence if you were someone I knew from my BYU days, 90-92. Ok, enough OT.

And I agree with a few of the other posters, just give it some time passing and then see how your relationship evolves. I think she is lying that her happiness depends on your going to church. That is pretty lame. It's childish thinking, not very mature. She's trying to blame you for something you don't really have control over. If church makes her happy, she would be happy whether you went or not.

Didn't unchecked give a conference talk about the church being able to accommodate those of varying levels of belief?

My TBM wife was the same way. She felt hurt, sad, depressed, etc... My depression was much worse once she started mentioning divorce in an attempt to manipulate me (she later admitted that she was just trying to scare me back to church). It took her almost a year before she let it go...for the most part. The essays helped. She recognizes that there are MAJOR problems with church history and doctrine, but something about TSCC works for her. She says she respects my decision and my desire to stand for what I believe is right. She says she'll let the kids decide if they want to be baptized, etc..., but she's still trying to indoctrinate them as best she can. There may be more rough times ahead for us, but things are pretty good for now...about 16 months since I dropped the bomb on her.

Freedomatlast asked, "How long will this go on?"

Well, what you described can go on for years and years without getting any better. Trust me on that. It sounds like you're trying to be supportive of your wife's beliefs, and that may never be good enough for her.

At this point, it comes down to what you want. Do you love your wife? To you want to be with her for the long haul? What situation do you want for your family?

If you think this relationship is salvageable, you've got to find a way to get the help you need, even if it's via Skype or email. If you're family is isolated socially in China, you've got to find a way out (assuming you're an expat). The status quo won't cut it.

I'm guessing that you try to keep the peace with your wife as much as you can. However, that's detrimental to your relationship over time. You two need to talk and cry and talk and cry and talk and cry some more. You need to argue about it (in a respectful manner). You two need to get out what's on your chest. Say what you've been wanting to say but holding back.

The bumps in the road are likely to get bigger, especially if you want to keep your marriage intact.

She is upset but she is also manipulating you with her emotional display.

Call her bluff and agree that perhaps you might be better off with a younger and carefree Chinese lady.
Maybe she'll try harder once she realizes there could be some competition on the scene.

Also remind her that her future in the morg looks dim as a divorcee.

Also, the schedule you describe is horrendously stressful.
Instead of trying to appease like a guilty person, you may want to insist on more family time on weekends.

She may need to quit her calling and just go to church once or twice a moth, which is more reasonable and will also break her cult brainwashing.

I'll just give my standard advice: Try to focus on the relationship, the parts of it that are good that have nothing to do with the church. These may include companionship, friendship, intimacy, shared goals, and so on. Try to find good things in your marriage and build on them.

If the church is the focus of everything, you're kind of screwed. If your relationship is first, you have a fighting chance. Obviously, you can't control whether she puts the church first, but at least don't follow her into that trap.

I'm skipping all the other responses just to say that it's certainly possible to make this work for the long term. You're still adjusting and so is she. I was in your position many years ago and from my viewpoint seven months is very, very brief. It sounds to me like you're handling things perfectly. Hang in there, your marriage can last even if you never agree on what happens when people die. What she needs is TIME. It gets better.

Amen to that. My wife and I will never agree on religion, but we are doing well and happy because we gave it time and worked on the things that make us great together.

Tell her it's like snowboarding. Something you used to like to do together, but now you just don't like hitting the slopes. Is it fair of her to drag you along if you don't like it?

Maybe you need to find something else that you like to do together.

My two cents. You sound like a gem. If my hubby ever did half of those things for me I'd, well, I'd get him a psych evaluation or something. Don't put up with abuse. Nice folks like us sometimes do too much to keep the peace.

You are doing everything and she is doing nothing.

You are going to have to go slow, but you have to get her to read the polygamy essay, and then something like In Sacred Lonliness.

Go for the woman's jugular - polygamy is a woman's testimony killer.

Tell her you will read it together - introduce it like 'please let's look at this together, help me understand what was going on so that I can try to repair my testimony.'

It's a bit sly, but she's not going to come away from the real facts of polygamy and polyandry with her testimony intact.

From then, you go to the Book of Abraham apologetics. There are quite a few good factual video's about it on youtube.

Then from then, to The Late War.

Good luck.

I'm going through this right now and have several thoughts.

- You probably both need to go through a grieving process before being able to figure out what's next for your relationship with clear heads. (I'm starting some therapy for that very thing this week, if you ever want to exchange ideas about it we could chat offline.)

- I am worried my marriage can't be saved because my wife cannot fully trust me. Her view, if not consciously, is that I am being influenced by Satan. And if I don't follow prophets or comply with the idea of commandments, then I am capable of ANYTHING, so she feels very at risk. She doesn't get that a person can have ethics and values without those being dictated. In turn, I cannot fully trust her, because she just doesn't get me. We are so far apart in our outlook that I can't connect with her and would prefer to connect with someone else. We started couples therapy to see what can be worked out. Maybe it's possible, but I don't know yet. It sounds like you have similar challenges.

- It might get to the point that you need to play hardball. It is probably illegal for her to leave the country with your kids without your permission. You may need to let her know if she leaves then she leaves the kids behind. I realize this could become counterproductive in many ways, especially thinking of the interest of your children, but it's a move to consider at some point.

- While searching for an appropriate therapist for us recently, I came across people who were willing to do therapy by phone or skype. I can dig up a couple of those, if you are interested. (I have been dragging my heels big time to get started with this because for me, working with a therapist is worse than getting my teeth drilled.) Here is a link for a service that pairs secular therapists with clients who don't want to work with someone who has a religious bias. I corresponded with a few people from here that seemed great (ultimately went with someone my wife found though). https://www.seculartherapy.org/

- Here are two articles on how therapists can screw up your marriage and how to vet one before making a selection. We followed the advice and it was well worth the effort.
http://www.hamft.net/images/uploads/BAD_AND_GOOD_COUPLES_THERAPY_handouts.one_day.2012.pdf

http://www.drbilldoherty.org/pdf/howtherapists.pdf

- This is tough and should never have happened to you, your wife or your children. If not for the lies, deceipt and betrayal of TSCC, you wouldn't be dealing with this. Sad.

- I keep reminding my wife that blaming each other can't help us get to the best solution, whether that is staying together or splitting up. It sucks, but it just happened, not because either of us is bad. Sort of like cancer suddenly striking one or both of us.

- In case it's of interest, I gave my wife the following analogy when she kept arguing that *I* am the one breaking our marriage contract and therefore I am responsible for any collapse of our family.

Assume DW owns a toy store and I am a supplier of toys that I source from (you guessed it) China. We sign a contract whereby I promise to supply a quantity of toys at an agreed price in perpetuity. All is well until I happen upon a study by a scientist with evidence that the toys are toxic to children who use them, but toxic in a way that people can't at first perceive.

I'm alarmed because this is my business and I also have a contract to honor. However, I decide that, due to my integrity, I cannot continue supplying the toys to DW's toy store. I notify her of my findings and am surprised when she says she doesn't want to know what was in the report. I say I am not pushing my conclusions on her and can provide the report so that she can evaluate it herself and make her own conclusions. Sadly, she responds, "my customers are happy. I see the joy on their faces when they play with the toys and they keep returning to buy more. This is a terrific product and I want you to keep your promise of providing it to me. I'm not interested in looking at your report because I *know* the toys are good."

It would be clear to any third party that I should re-evaluate my commitment to the contract despite my original promise due to new information I have that was not available when I signed the contract. The fact that DW will not evaluate the new information does not change the ethics of whether I can honor the contract.

This analogy got through to my wife and she says she's thinking about it.

Good luck. Please let us know if you find anything that helps your marriage.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2014 05:29PM by jefecito.