Philisophical question of the day. When is lying deemed justifiable or forgivable?

Everyone has lied before. Maybe it was a tiny lie, middle of the road, inconsequential, or a big one. Then there are white lies, accidental lies, and malicious lies.

Everyone will have their own individual reservations.

I'm thinking of a situation that happened to me a couple of years ago. In the car on the way home from church, my LDS neighbors asked me how my babysitting job was going. Having just quit and being caught off guard by the question, I said it was going fine. Nothing more. After she talked with my mom, who told the truth and the sadness of my job situation (that's another story), my neighbor chewed me out the following week at church. Lies are bad. I realize. Like she suggested, I should've said "I'll tell you later" but in the moment all I could think to do was avoid more questions. Hindsight is 20/20. Had it been just her and I in the car without the pressure of looking bad in front of the others, I would've carefully explained what happened.

I got an earful of saccharine self-righteousness about how I could not be trusted anymore that day. Thank the restored church Jesus forgives my sins through the atonement. I was still definitely worthy enough for a baptism. She said she sins too, then chose not to be empathetic about it with me. I didn't think it would go that far. I expected something more along the lines of please don't lie again, it hurt me, you didn't need to. I'd apologize and we'd carry on with our lives. It dragged out beyond a well-meant apology into the uhappy mess I mentioned above.

Ideally, I wouldn't have panicked and lied to her. She said my friend (her daughter) was upset about it too, yet my friend never initiated this concern with me. I felt uneasy about this, as if my friend was going to let it go and didn't want me to know (but her mom told anyway) or she was trying to go behind my back about it. I'm not saying my lie was good...I just don't think I deserved to be scorned as much as I did for it. I'm not a habitual liar either and this was the first time anything like this happened between her and me. My genuine apology and fears became a preach the gospel moment for her.

When you want to cheat your own family and assure your standing among Pharisees. That's what my dad taught me.

Ethically and morally, it's probably never ok. Practically and kindly, probably some of the time it may seem necessary. Social so-called "little white lies" and petty little lies probably grease the social wheels and may help to keep social and relationship order.

If your MIL with whom you have a very rocky relationship, gets an awful haircut that makes her look older and frumpy, just say it's interesting and new, or fresh or trendy, not that you think she looks like a Muppet in heat. Leave it to her husband, best friend or daughter or son, maybe, to tell her the whole, terrible truth. But, I would advise if she asks you directly if you like it and you don't, to just tell her the truth.

If someone you don't know well asks how you're doing, it's probably ok to say you're fine, even though you may not be when you're in a hurry and don't want a bunch of strangers standing around, to overhear.

If your child says something racist or bigoted about people other different from you in public, it's ok if you don't throw your husband or parent under the bus at the same time as you say to them, in no uncertain terms, that you know where they heard that and that you and your family don't agree with those words.

If a child not yours ask you if Jesus or Santa exists, you can direct them to their parent or pastor to answer those questions, instead of saying every single thing you think on these subjects.

Technically, you're lying by omission or commission. You're attempting to protect other people's feelings and yourself and maybe to keep harmony in a family & keep social order.

She was totally out of line. Your only problem was getting caught off guard which, again, was because her question was

unexpected and out of line. You don't owe anyone explanations concerning your personal business. However, you

can save yourself a lot of grief by having one answer for all the nosy questions you will encounter. My favorite is,

"It's a long story, let me catch you later" then smile. That gives you time to decide if you want to ever "catch her later."

She sounds, however, like a person I would never trust with any personal information. She sounds like someone who would

immediately run to the other person or persons and make things worse, if she hasn't already.


Just about everyone I know deflects personal and inappropriate questions with the answer you gave.


Quit beating yourself up over it. She has already done a superb job of that. I, personally, would do my best to never have

a one on one encounter with someone like that. You are fine.

I completely agree with your reply. I've had the most minimal contact with her since then. I quit attending church soon after this happened, and also because visiting the temple grounds made me realize the church is not what I thought. The majority of the members' attitudes and this self-righteous woman seriously turned me off to attending church much longer.

I'm so happy I don't talk to her anymore. I think she distanced herself from me too, after that. I noticed she seemed more cautious around me, as if she was keeping tabs. Strike one! I wish I could describe her personality better; when she disagrees with you regarding gospel opinions, she becomes serious while trying to remain chipper. She's like a strange mix of condescending, self-righteousness, lack of trust and confidence in me because I wasn't baptized, Gospel is #1, and arrogance. Most friends or neighbors who know each other well enough, like we did (sort of, just add in the Mormon wall), wouldn't overreact the way she did.

Oddly enough we were discussing this question at home yesterday.

I had read an article on the different reasons people lie.

It said the main reason women lie is to spare feelings or emotions. In your case it was a way to deflect an unpleasant emotional situation.

Almost everyone has said the "wow this tastes good" or the "no you don't look fat" lie.

I've told the "fluffy ran away" lie when a pet passed away. The "it's ok" or the "I'll be fine" ones a lot too when I want to be left alone.

I even did the "I don't know where she is" lie when we were helping a friend leave a bad relationship.

In Utah how many enter zero on the tax line for sales tax owed on out of state purchases?

Where do lies go from sparing feelings or deflecting trouble or even out right protecting some one, to harmful deceptions?

When your wife asks if she looks fat

Good answer! LOL

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

That's it !!!

Ghawd didn't tell his people, "Don't lie.." He made it very specific: "don't tell a fib about something your neighbor did or didn't do."

This means you can lie right to your neighbor's face! I suppose it could also be stretched to mean that it's okay to bear false witness about the people who live in your house, cuz they aren't neighbors.

I don't doubt but that someone somewhere has burrowed deeply into the philosophy that supports why ghawd made this particular exception to what must be the general rule: "lie whenever you want to."

As soon as a tiny little human being learns to talk, he or she will say "mama" and "dada", followed within mere days by, "I didn't do it." Breathing and lying, you aren't alive if you're not doing both of them.

When you cut someone's head off

Lying is ok when the other person has no real interest in the truth and you don't care to justify or explain yourself yet. "How are you today?" "fine thanks" (even though that's not really true, but I owe you nothing more than civility).

Lying is not OK when it is used to manipulate favors in your behalf. Example: Church leaders says: "The lord needs your money for this new temple in Argentina, whatever the cost." believing mormons pull out their gold teeth and send them to Salt Lake.

That woman turned an innocent white lie into an opportunity to advance her own sanctimonious agenda and gain power over you. That is far more egregious than trying to maintain some personal boundaries.

Instead of worrying about the lie, you need to worry about how to get people like her out of your life.

The prohibition against lying is useful for indoctrinating people, and keeping them in line. It has a lot less value in the life of an adult.

My ethic includes not doing anything that brings me pleasure or advancement at the cost of causing others pain. I don't generally lie about important stuff with family members. I don't bother to lie to people I don't care about.

Each situation deserves its own analysis. It is generally easier not to lie, but I have no prolem at all lying to petty bureaucrats and nosy people. Life isn't black and white like they told us as kids.

Well ---

First, about the example that you gave --- I can get that your neighbor might feel sad that you didn't tell her what was going on right away. People like to feel that they are on the inside track with others. But it also seems like she over-reacted a whole lot. I can't remember the number of times that someone has caught me off guard on a subject that was, at the time, a difficult one for me to talk about. Sometimes you think of the right thing to say, in the moment, and sometimes you don't. That's true for everyone I've ever met.

We are taught by society to answer "how's-it-going?" questions in a positive way, regardless of the real situation. Few people are uniformly honest with those questions. People who actually tell you exactly how they are feeling when you say, "Hi, how are you?" are often seen as being weird.

"Hi, how are you?"

"Rotten! I've got a splitting headache, I just found out that my husband/wife is cheating on me, and you just splashed mud on my shoes. Those are new shoes and I hate it when people mess up my new things."

"Oh, sorry that I asked."

You can bother others just as much by giving a too-honest answer as by giving a less-than-honest answer. So just work on letting it go --- let it go --- let it go....

About lying --- ideally, in a totally perfect world, with perfectly clear values and all people perfectly in harmony with their values and each other --- no-one should have to lie about anything.

On the other hand, real life is nothing like that. Some times being absolutely, brutally honest is very difficult. And it can do more harm than good. >In some situations.<

In other situations, you can really harm people by withholding the full truth. For example, the situation where the Mormon Church is now (and seems to have always been). If you are lying in order to control others and enrich yourself, that's not a good thing.

My own viewpoint is to try to do more good than harm, and so --- life gets complicated at times. I can't see any useful rules to follow, except:

Try, on the balance, to do more good than harm. It won't always work out perfectly. And sometimes, it's really hard to figure out. So, don't bludgeon yourself, or anyone else, who seems to be trying to do good, but is not always totally perfect. Save the condemnation for those who are deliberately hurting others in order to rule and get rich.

I'm a big believer in nonspecific answers to questions from people who are inappropriately intrusive, or who have proven themselves to be unreasonably reactionary, or when you just feel like maintaining a bit of personal privacy.

Most normal adults would've simply responded diplomatically, "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that" when they were told about your babysitting job difficulties from your parent. They would have thought there was probably a good reason (embarrassment, being caught off guard by the question) that you'd just said things were "fine".

Only a self-righteous jerk would confront you about "lying" to her in the way that she did. That person's empathy, age-appropriate and healthy boundary thermometers are severely malfunctioning.

In the future, it's perfectly ok to respond to questions you're not prepared to answer with straightforward statements like "It's a long story" or "Perhaps another time". These say nothing informative while communicating you don't really want to talk about it. If they are push for more info just say "Thanks for your concern but I'm not up for talking about it."

I have MS and sometimes have to use a cane for balance/weakness issues. Because I'm only 45 sometimes I get questions from people who don't know my medical status. I know they are well-meaning but don't feel like revealing my diagnosis. Sometimes I just don't want to hear (for the thousandth time) the kind but somewhat depressing refrain accompanied by the immediate facial expression: "Ohhh, I'm so sorry!"

So while I know they mean well, privately I'm in a place of burnout in hearing such responses from people I really don't know. If I could be sure that everyone would simply say, "Gee, that really sucks!" without dripping forced sympathy, I think I'd be fine saying my cane use was due to having MS. However, I think my response is kind in return to kind questions and also makes it clear that the matter is not up for further discussion: "It's just a chronic thing that comes and goes, but I'm used to it -- thanks for asking."

So -- when I don't tell people I'm using a cane because I have MS, am I lying? Who is entitled to the rigid truth?

It's a balance, this honesty thing. Some people deserve your honesty. Others don't. The only way you learn this is through years of lived experience and time.

Sorry you've been subjected to some judgmental and extreme types who shamed you for being a relatively normal human being. All of us get caught off guard sometimes, and all of us make mistakes. Treat it as a learning experience, don't be so hard on yourself for it, and in the future work on having nonspecific responses at hand for those inevitable times when the snoops and busybodies of the world think they're entitled to all the details of your private life.

I remember reading somewhere that everybody lies multiple times a day. Little white lies, omissions, leading on, etc.

Of course, I don't do that ;-)

I'd probably ask the lady if she lies.

I actually heard a lady respond to the question "have you ever told a lie" by stopping to think for a minute and saying "no."

I suppose I've bought into the idea that we all lie many times every day.

She was being a biotch

I think this subject was covered in the movie "The Invention of Lying".

I agree with Elder OldDog. Lying is ok when done for a righteous reason. The only thing to remember is that there could be consequences (eventually).

Think of those who hid Jews in Nazi Germany. Lying was 100% a good thing. If they were caught, they would be killed. They knew that.

I love the hypocrisy of people in the church who will rake you over the coals for something so innocent and banal, yet defend to the death the right of Joseph Smith to lie to Emma, to the people of Nauvoo, and to the world at large through his public statements.

So the answer to "When is it okay to lie?" is, according to the church, "When you are in a position of authority."

I can't believe your "neighbor" story. That's pretty pharisaical even for an LDS prig.

I know! Even compared to many other LDS women, she seems more fanatical/fundamentalist. Obedience is her second favorite church principle. She is obnoxious, hogs conversations, and is somewhat neurotic. She acted like it was her God-given duty to correct me for my "crime." Don't even try to raise up the idea of a woman wanting to pursue a career forever instead of having a family...she'll point out why that opinion isn't good. That also happened, but at a different time.

Don't commit the lie of omission. Tell her what you think of her. :)

Lying is probably okay when someone is on their deathbed and asks, "Was I really such a dick?" And you say, "No, not really."

Or when lying makes you lots of money. I prayed about it and know that it is true.

When you are being obedient to "the brethren." Obedience to general authority priesthood is more important than the truth.

My grandmother taught me that it's not lying if I don't owe you the truth. The response to inappropriate, prying or personal questions should be, "Why do you ask?" or "I don't want to talk about that."

I had to deal with this stuff myself. I would get stumped or floored easily too. Or i'd just blurt out the truth and then berate myself b/c this person didn't need to know the truth, but i was so ingrained with 'not lying' that i'd tell.

Unless it was to protect my parents. When us kids spent a day at a n adult's house recording christmas carols to give my parents a tape of us singing, the man later asked how they liked it. I lied and said they were happy with it.Actually, like most of our christmas presents, they didn't seem to care. But i couldn't have told that to the man who sincerely was trying to help us with our Christmas, and was asking from his heart.

Also a good time to lie is when your mother asks intrusive questions like: How much did you pay for your house? Or 'are you on welfare yet?'

Or when hitler-types want to know if you're hiding someone you shouldn't be.

Or if you hate and disbelieve in the church and your parents would freak out, don't give them this information unless you live outside their home and monetary influence.

Also i'm not going to lie at my mother's funeral and say i love her or that she was a great mom.

At my dad's funeral, i gave the eulogy and i told all the mormons in the chapel what a great mormon he was, that he was an artist, that he loved nature. But i didn't say he was a great parent. Cause i wasn't allowed to have him in my life much so i wouldn't get my mother upset.

It's easier to define when it's not okay.

It's not okay to lie:

- To manipulate someone for your own gain.
- To cause emotional distress for your own pleasure.
- To prevent justice from being done.

Grey areas of lying to me are protective lying.

- Lying to prevent harm to someone that does not deserve it.
- Lying to prevent unjust harm by inflexible institutions/systems.
- Lying to avoid harrassment.

Other grey areas include work that requires lying, like undercover cop and government spycraft, but those are in a different category. And often the use of it is dependant on individual circumstance.

Basically if you're screwing over someone it's a lot harder to justify lying. But if you're doing it to protect yourself or others from harm, it is much more likely to be justified.

Lying just to create chaos is pretty much never okay.

When you fear that saying publicly saying exactly what you think will make you look like a fool.

Sometimes that's wise. Sometimes it's because you're a chicken shit.

^^^ On the nose, Other Than. ^^^

Simply put. Thank you. Funny how black and white society can be, huh? "Lying is bad." Really? All the time?? We love to be lied to! If it protects us and makes us feel safe, we accept the lie.

For me honesty is about a cooperative willingness to be open about yourself towards people who's buisness it is to know stuff about you. Your employer should know your education and experience. Your spouse, your kids, your close friends have a right to know alot of intimate stuff. Some half-strangers you bump into on the street do not have any such right at all. You don't owe these people a thing. There is nothing to feel guilty about here.

I'm gay for example. Yet I don't write that in my resume as it has nothing to do with my work. I don't owe potential employers any intimate details about my sexlife. Ridiculous laws in some american states withstanding that is strangers poking their nose where it doesn't belong. Whenever your truthful response could be "that's none of your buisness" you are also allowed to lie for the sake of civility.

I don't see what you said as being a lie. Saying a job is going "fine" can mean a range of things.....from sarcastic meaning "it sucks", to "its going well", to "I'm not there anymore but I'm handling it OK", to "great because I'm no longer there", to "its really none of your business".

Just because you gave a non-descriptive "fine" answer doesn't mean you lied about anything. Unless you went on and on about it as if you were still there.

You answer "fine" and they are hurt and feeling lied to so you are bad. Mormons sure can be idiots.

When they started into you about it, you should have said "I didn't realize I owed you an explanation.....and by the way, how's your sex life these days?"

Your nosey neighbor just might have realized the range that "fine" can mean :)