A "prophet" followed The Old Testament and murdered by beheading hundreds of men and boys according to Daniel Peterson. If Brigham Young ordered the settlers passing through Utah Territory murdered would it really diminish him in Mormon's eyes?

"According to Daniel C. Peterson and Martin Lings, this judgment was in accordance with the law of Moses as stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.[13][14]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza

" Deuteronomy 20:10-14New International Version (NIV)

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. "
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+20%3A10-14

Ordering the murder of people is part of what is now called TERRORISM.
BY and the prophet referred to by Daniel Peterson are on the same level as ISIS basically, scum of the earth.

But, if raping children doesn't bother some TBMs, why would terrorism? Some TBMs will be kissing JS and BY's asses forever through eternity. That is where the ETERNITY comes in in this CULT.
I swear that I know TBMs whose lips are so firmly pressed against the ass of the CULT that 26 surgeons working around the clock for 26 years steady couldn't remove them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2014 04:40PM by verilyverily.

Even when I was a TBM I didn't like BY, he always made me feel icky so I wouldn't be stunned or surprised if the info was released. I am convinced that no amount of bad info will deter most TBMs from having a testimony of the church.

roslyn Wrote:
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> Even when I was a TBM I didn't like BY, he always
> made me feel icky so I wouldn't be stunned or
> surprised if the info was released.

He has always made me feel icky too and I am his descendant from the wife stealing he did.

I didn't know that anyone still paid attention to Daniel Peterson.....? I'm shocked. Who cares what he thinks anymore? Even his own church dumped him.

I was using him as a potential example of a Mormon who would not be in any considerable way affected by a smoking gun attached to a blood atonement red handed "prophet" claiming the people he is supposed to by divine revelation in The Book of Mormon be bring to The Light of Christ - did it.

I apologize for the MMM. It, along with my views on Black people, were simply the product of the times I lived in. Just like it was common and quite ordinary for 14 year girls to marry.

So me and JS get a pass on all of that ordinary stuff.

interesting question, but Highly Unlikely:

-TSCC has possession of 99% of any evidence that could support this proposition. Nobody could / can see it, NO ONE.

-Why would BY cover-up something he wasn't responsible for?

-Verifies the Us vs. Them mentality that's still strong in Morland.

I personally don't think BY was quite that stupid, even tho he ruled with an Iron Fist. ( Am I Wrong?)

remember how separated SW Utah was in those days, but the visit of (?) just prior suggests possible responsibility, + the rumored meeting with indigenous people ("Indians") shortly before. Did BY OK this to satisfy them, hoping they would later be his ally against the U.S Army? Certainly possible!!!!

the OP posted a 'What If' question that's sorta interesting, I should have responded Directly to that.


Still, Highly Unlikely scenario.


but, IF: it would weaken the testimony of Lots of people, I agree.
However, there is still Heavy social pressure for people to remain, I don't think that has or will substantially change(d),

I agree with the posts u cited, but I think current 'evidence' is (still) Highly circumstantial; I Know I wouldn't like to be accused of ANYTHING based on circumstances!

By any Account, BY got away with lots & lots of self-centered wrongs, greed, 'wives', etc etc etc. So again, Yes strong, irrefutable evidence would change some/many minds abt MoMism, even while others would say (such):

'You can't judge people of the past by today's standards' & other such CRAP. That's who Mormons are.

Hardly matter.

There may be a few who are troubled by it and eventually leave but for most TBM's there is no ONE silver bullet. Most TBM's need MULTIPLE silver bullets to truly shake their testimony but few will take the time study all these issues. Add to that, most TBM's don't really care about Brigham Young. Its Joseph Smith they are in love with.

The apologists will come up with all sorts of excuses for this.
1) The evidence isn't reliable
2) It was a different time back then, the Mormons were being persecuted, Brigham Young was just trying to defend the Saints from threat of the Federal Government and made a mistake ...prophets aren't perfect!
3)

Let's face it Elder, we all know BY was complicit. Any further debate is over a matter of degree.

One thing upon which can all agree is that MMM would NEVER have happened if Brigham foul-mouth fatass Young hadn't been in charge.

Shummy Wrote:
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> Let's face it Elder, we all know BY was complicit.
> Any further debate is over a matter of degree.

I'm not debating.

I doubt it would for most TBMs. The culture and mindset of the cult are too ingrained. Boner.

Add murder to child molester and sexual predator. Wonder if these shelves where their cogdis is kept could collapse under such a strain?

the 'shelf' is a nice analogy, I agree.

but, it's still a hypothetical question.

Mormons believe that 'It's better for one person to perish than have a nation dwindle in unbelief'....


they would PROMPTLY EXTERMINATE ANYONE who has/had or threatens to expose any such evidence, like a fly on the wall.

As another poster noted, the Morg keeps its members very busy with callings to keep thinking time down. I don't see my
TBM family members thinking about any of the issues we discuss on the board.

Also, Elder, I'm sorry for the hurt you experienced with your family history. Until recently, I did not know about your grandparents and father. My apologies for anything that I may have posted that caused any hurt. Boner.

byuboner Wrote:
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> My apologies for anything that I may
> have posted that caused any hurt.

You have no reason to apologize. It is an anonymous board and we are both using "new names" to cover our real identity.

I'm one of 10. I am literally the 1 black sheep and 9 others are white and delightsome.

I've actually posted a link to an article where my father is quoted using his name in a sound bite about his own father. He doesn't say anything bad just is quoted as being distanced from his father.

If anyone one wanted they could find all 10 of our names on the Brigham Young Family Association site using my father's name to find us.

So, it isn't like I'm super anonymous I just don't want to throw my name out to the intertubes.

Maybe someday I will use my real name. I've toyed with the idea just to see if LDS Inc. will excommunicate me. I would love it if they did.

They put an 8 year old boy on their membership roles under duress. They should take me off their roles under their own duress.

Thanks, Elder! Boner.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " Deuteronomy 20:10-14New International Version
> (NIV)
>
> 10 When you march up to attack a city, make its
> people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and
> open their gates, all the people in it shall be
> subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12
> If they refuse to make peace and they engage you
> in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the
> Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to
> the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women,
> the children, the livestock and everything else in
> the city, you may take these as plunder for
> yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord
> your God gives you from your enemies. "

What is the connection to MMM? Civilians were passing through mormon territory. TSCC tried to get Indians to kill them but the Indians failed, so TSCC convinced the civilians to surrender so that TSCC could murder the unarmed men and let the Indians kill the women. There was no city, no offer of peace and no saving the women. Other than lots of people being killed there are no similarities.

It's also the same mentality coming from this myth that led to English settlers slaughtering Native Americans (wicked Caanities). Boner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2014 09:02PM by byuboner.

The Invisible Green Potato Wrote:
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> Other
> than lots of people being killed there are no
> similarities.

There were prophets involved.

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> There were prophets involved.

One involved a prophet and the other involved a fictional prophet.

I was talking about Muhammad and Joseph Smith. Both of whom I think are not fictional.

Brother Peterson brought in The Bible.

They would simply trot out the now-standard comeback about how things were different back then. Violence was more accepted at that time, and so on.

Mind you, things were not "different" back then. I am in the middle of Plutarch, and it almost makes me weep to learn that we in 2014 are struggling with the same sorts of political, economic amd moral failings as the old Greeks and Romans. Let's all grow up, shall we? things were not different "back then".

I'm in the middle of Plato's "Republic" and amazed at what is relevant today.

Massacre is massacre. I doubt the mass killing of humans changes over time. So life was worth less back then than it is worth now? I think not.

I think it's intresting they named a university after a mass murderer. It's like if they should start Anders Behring Breivik University in Norway.

quickman Wrote:
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> It's like if they should
> start Anders Behring Breivik University in Norway.

Exactly. I got my degree from an institution named after a murdering despotic religious tyrant.

It would not matter to TBMs if BY was proven to have ordered the MMM. They would point some other atrocity, like David having Uriah killed or some other equally inapplicable, and yet more heinous, example from the BOM, and say how God uses flawed people to do His work... no need to expect perfection from a human prophet after all.

Zeniff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They would point some other
> atrocity, like David having Uriah killed or some
> other equally inapplicable, and yet more heinous,
> example from the BOM, and say how God uses flawed
> people to do His work... no need to expect
> perfection from a human prophet after all.

Or Abraham and Isaac.

I think if "prophets" can be flawed human beings than they at least should be held in the same regard as any other human being. They should not get a pass for prophethood. That is where I get upset. That a man can start to organize a belief system and him and his companions can be petty tyrants and vindictive "eye for an eye" abusers of people.

It is supposed to be The Church of Jesus Christ? Did Christ heal people and raise them from the dead? Yes and no one would expect that from Joseph Smith but did Christ sexually molest people and steal their inheritances? Not that I know of.

So, if Joseph Smith can be just a "man" and not "The Man" Jesus at LEAST he could tell the truth and try to not harm people in Jesus' name.

But is is like Ring of Gyges. Smith gets the magic power and proclaims himself king stealing from others to do so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Gyges

And he is considered a martyr because of his getting killed from bad behaviors.

Strange how his Karma has ennobled him more. But by his fruits his present followers should know him. But if they do the justify all that bad behavior and places the blame upon God when it should be on Smith.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2014 03:38PM by Elder Berry.