If, after learning, from there own church, the truth about Smiths reprehensible conduct with immature girls and other men's wives and remain members, then they become accessories to his crimes.

Mormons may be able to shrug off his minor faults but they need to consider the consequences or recommending Smith to others. You are often judged by the company you keep. There are few more offensive labels than pedophile.

Exactly!

copolt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are often judged
> by the company you keep.

Smith is dead. You know this right? There are many people here attempting to recover from Mormonism while remaining members.

"There are many people here attempting to recover from Mormonism while remaining members."

That's true, but most aren't going around bearing their testimonies about Joe, trying to attract new converts, etc... They might be doing just the opposite; trying to spread the truth, bring about change, etc... Some see value in the organization, but not in the doctrine.

Smith was a sexual predator who used his self-created position to lure his victims. It makes me sick to think of dishonoring his victims by spreading his lies and singing praise to his name. I think copolt is referring to those that KNOW that JS was a lying creep, but still defend him with excuses like, "We never said he was PERFECT." There is no honor in teaching children that the man stands next to Jesus while hiding the faith-destroying truth from them.

Chump Wrote:
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> I think copolt is referring to those that
> KNOW that JS was a lying creep, but still defend
> him with excuses like, "We never said he was
> PERFECT." There is no honor in teaching children
> that the man stands next to Jesus while hiding the
> faith-destroying truth from them.

If that is who he is referring to then I agree supporting people who do heinous things of any age is not right in my opinion. This is no how I read it.

Look at all the murders and abuse commited somewhere in the history of most churches.

So by this logic anyone connected to almost all churches would have some heavy guilt on them.

It could also be extended to any country where people vote for leadership. They would be responsible for crimes commited by their respective governments.

Can't agree that my 90 year old aunt or 9 year old nephew are in anyway responsible for the actions of someone almost 200 years ago.

"Can't agree that my 90 year old aunt or 9 year old nephew are in anyway responsible for the actions of someone almost 200 years ago."

If they pay tithing to promote TSCC's current lies and apologies about Smith and his crimes, then they are likewise guilty of those crimes.

Oh. Come. On. No one claims that the leaders of countries are God's prophets. No one claims that a man who married 40 women, the wives of his friends--in secret, and forced children to marry him, but "really didn't want to do it, God sent an angel to MAKE him!" can really compare him to the leaders of a nation. If this is your prophet, you've got a very low opinion of your God. And that's your responsibility. You can't foist that off on leaders.

I hate the Mormon apologetic that says, we,re no worse than the other losers. If you claim Joseph Smith was a prophet, and you're following the One True Church, it's your responsibility when your leader's a pedophile.

copolt - Your are so right. Even in prison, (where many of the inmates are less than upstanding citizens SARCASM), the prisoners HATE pedophiles. They treat murderers better than they do pedophiles.

JS founded an entire CULT on pedophilia. It doesn't get any worse than that.

I'm 'listening' carefully to what you're saying Heartless and of course your 90 year old aunt and 9 year old nephew are not responsible but those who are adult enough or well enough or informed enough are a different case.(Though I accept Elder Berry's comment about how difficult some situations can be)

The former crimes of Popes and Cardinals for example are today not central to their church thinking but in TSCC Smith is. We read posts here that say his name is spoken of more in meetings than Jesus. It's his first vision that is taught by all missionaries. All members are called to consistently sustain him and revere him and suggest to others that he is God-Chosen. Smith is not the same as a former U.S. President who has little impact on your life now and former former murderers and abusers are now recognised for what they were.

Smith is dead (Elder Berry) but he's current.

I appreciate your comments. Thanks.

I would agree with you about being dead by association if you were talking about Jim Jones.

Yes the Catholic church (and others) have issues with pedophilia and it is terrible of course.
But, what is different with the CULT and JS is that the pedophilia was committed by the prophet himself.

It would be as if the Pope himself was a pedophile (that's as close as I can get in comparison) and even that is not real accurate but you get the point.

Thanks verily verily. Joseph Smith is hailed as THE Prophet of the last days and even the Popes don't claim that. The RC Church didn't fall over former Popes misconduct but Mormonism should fall if TSCC admitted Smiths. Regards.

copolt Wrote:
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> Thanks verily verily. Joseph Smith is hailed as
> THE Prophet of the last days and even the Popes
> don't claim that.

What is a prophet of the last days? Is that someone who will make you a pedophile because you follow them? Are they asking you to do this in following them?

They are asking you to agree that Smith's actions were acceptable, and to join them in promoting lies and apologies about Smith's crimes.

Well, then let the cognitive dissonant Mormons have it. My wife thinks Joseph Smith is a prophet but that he did things that weren't in harmony with her views of God. She believes polygamy is and always was wrong and so I think she beliefs in a "fallen" prophet.

That is where we agree to disagree. I don't think she is "supporting" a pedophile.

What in the world can it possibly mean to "believe" in a "fallen" prophet? Not only to church leaders make it up as they go along, the members do too.

I can't vouch for her beliefs only her character. I wish I could vouch for her beliefs as well but I can't. How Mormons now that the cat is out of the bag can support their founding leader is beyond me.

My breaking point of when I learned of the polyandry, the child bride and all that jazz if not jizz.

The pope and other higher-ups there are pedophiles. See itccs.org for evidence.

"My wife thinks Joseph Smith is a prophet but that he did things that weren't in harmony with her views of God. She believes polygamy is and always was wrong and so I think she beliefs in a "fallen" prophet.

That is where we agree to disagree. I don't think she is "supporting" a pedophile." -

Elder Berry - Who does your DW think JS was speaking for? HE said HE was GOD'S Prophet! So if you wife doesn't think he was speaking for GOD, does she feel he was speaking for Lucifer (closer to the truth)? Another word for FALLEN PROPHET is FALSE PROPHET. Why bother?
She is supporting a child molester.

Everyone on here who has mentioned that their brother/self/father/whatever was a child molester at some point in time, let me ask you this..."WERE THEY MOLESTING THE CHILDREN IN THE NAME OF GOD AND UNDER ORDERS FROM GOD?"

Stop defending this piece of scum please. Would you defend your neighbor who molested your child if they said they did it in God's name? GET A FU*KING GRIP!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2014 09:13PM by verilyverily.

Let me see....
My dad was a pedophile, therefore I shall be called the same...
My son was a thief or murderer I shall be labeled as such...

What a F*cked up dichotomy is this?

Another stupid assertion...

My dad molested two teenage girls in the 80s. He is still alive.

Thanks Elder Berry. I'm sorry to hear that. May I suggest you wouldn't condone his behaviour or agree with it therefore you're not an accessory.

copolt Wrote:
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> May I
> suggest you wouldn't condone his behaviour or
> agree with it therefore you're not an accessory.

Do you think I do?

If you remain a "Berry," then according to this OP, you do.

Funny. My pedophile father changed his first and last name from "Rulon Jeffs Jr." to what it is today.

Well, hopefully that at least serves to help you distance yourself even farther from him.

When I had a relationship with him it was strained.

Wrong. That is not what the OP is asserting. If you follow your pedophile father as a prophet. And promote his status as prophet to others, trying to get them to join your organization or remain in it once they discover your father's crimes, then, yes, you're an accessory. The OP's not asserting any guilt by association from the relationship. It's the beliefs. You are responsible for what you believe and for what you apologize for.

I feel like you are ignoring a whole bunch of context that led to this branch of the overall thread that OP started. The real question is whether you are doing it on purpose because you wanted to tell me that I am wrong, or because you genuinely missed it.

Did he molest them on orders from God?

I agree with the OP that the polygamy essay is really a huge turning point. If you continue to put your money/energy into this, you are not a good person. Most TBMs use their church membership to just feel so good about themselves. They just feel so righteous.

New answer for all when dealing with Mormons.

"I for one cannot support an organization founded and based on such immorality. That you can (the Mormon being addressed) speaks to your values but I have to hold myself to higher principles."

It is a chance to forever claim the moral high ground from any Mormon. This they are unprepared for after a lifetime of judging others for having a beer or coffee.

wrong place.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2014 08:18PM by Elder Berry.

MRC is right. The problem with remaining faithful to TSCC after they themselves have admitted this shocking behavior by their founding prophet is that they are NOT in fact saying JS's fooling around was a mistake. They are NOT saying, "Well, nobody's perfect. Prophets are human too." TSCC is saying god commanded JS to do these things and teach it as doctrine, part of a "restoration" of all things. A teaching that many people did believe-to their great misery in life.

Many, many religious leaders have made mistakes but many absolutely did not preach their most disgusting behavior as doctrines of god. After the pedophilia in the Catholic Church was revealed, the church did not come out and say, "The cat's outta the bag now! Now we can openly teach that pedophilia is a commandment from god!" Their covering up was certainly disgusting as well, but they didn't advocate that as doctrine either.

Remaining in the church is a much different thing than having a family member who is guilty of the same kinds of things, yet you still maintain a relationship. You can recognize they have done something terrible and make it clear that they must suffer the consequences, but you still love them. You certainly would not follow them in their crimes or preach that what they did was a-ok.

Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet and his polygamy was part of his doctrine. I, for one, have no idea how someone could say this was wrong but he was right about everything else. I think Ruthie's statement needs to be said to every member of TSCC just to bring into really sharp focus what their loyalty really means.

Oops! I meant jkjkjkjk's statement!