When I was TBM I never said this sentence as part of my testimony because I felt it was incorrect. A church is a group of people and as such can neither be true nor untrue.

I always said, "I believe the gospel is true". Of course I have since learned that the gospel is both true and false.

The question I have now, relates to how either of those statements set the stage for my current atheism.

I just heard a statistic that roughly 65% of people who leave Mormonism become atheists.

Do you think that that is because we were taught that we had THE truth and now that we know that we did not have THE truth we are not able to replace Mormonism with anything less than THE truth?

I think it is because we were so sure we knew the truth and then learned we were completely wrong, that we no longer have any confidence we can know truth. At least, that's how it is for me.

This is true for me

My take on it is that once you understand how to deconstruct a religion (in this case mormonism), you understand how to deconstruct all religions and come to understand that they're all just man-made products, separated only by a number of years.

Same for me. I saw religion for what it was - man made stories created to comfort, control, and explain the unknown. Throughout the centuries and across the world, belief systems vary wildly. What makes Christians think theirs is right?

As a mormon, I never said I know the church is true. Looking back, I realize I struggled with mormon beliefs for a very long time.

I became an atheist because I applied the same rational toolkit to Christianity and theism that I used to refute Mormonism. These are all byproducts of our imperfect brains. We have an insatiable desire to know. Religion provides that, but it's a counterfeit epistemology. Science works better, coupled with a new willingness to simply admit that there simply are no answers for many questions yet.

I had the same problem. I could never directly say "I know the church is true" even though I tried to form the words. If I were to bear my testimony now, I'd have no problem saying "I know the church is complete and utter bullshit".

I wish I could say that same. I was instructed on my mission by my mission president to bear testimony before every door closed. I calculated a few months back an estimation of how many people I may have spoken with on my mission. I served in the South and spent around 10 hours a day going door to door since we didn't have a lot of member referrals. I was actually an uber-obedient, get-up-early-to-get-out-the-door-early type of missionary so I prided myself on how many hours I spent 'tracting'. My companion and I held (for a brief time) the mission record for tracting hours at 84 hours in one week. We even left church after sacrament to accomplish this (sheesh).

I put the number of people I spoke with during my two years anywhere from 56,000 - 80,000.

This would also mean that I said "I know the church is true" or some variation of that around the same number of times.

And we wonder how TBMs are sooooo slow to recognize falsities.

So, cheers to you, releve, for never saying it. You're a better (smarter) person than I.

I've heard a lot of testimonies in other churches and don't recall anyone ever saying "true"--they would say "I know Jesus lives" or "I love the gospel" or some such, but they didn't feel the need to try and justify why they are standing there...

For me the fact that I had throught I KNEW as a result of "spiritual" experiences only to later gain an understanding that I had deluded myself has led me to refuse to accept or believe or know any thing on that basis again. Hence, I cannot believe anything that does not have a firm footing on valid historical documentation. Therefore, I am not long a moron and no longer an Xtian; nor have I found any system that appears to be more valid than any other. Atheist? Maybe not, but close.

On second thought, it probably goes back to Moroni's promise, which I never thought made sense: have you ever read a history, or a spiritual book, that asks you to believe it's "true"? That's a red flag right there...

In mormonism if you follow the rules you can become a god. In Christianity you are a beggar showing another beggar where to find bread. I think that has something to do with it. The formerly mormon ego cannot handle it.

I always thought it sounded odd to say "I know this CHURCH is true." I always thought it should be something like, "I know the TEACHINGS of this church are true." Something like that.

Nevertheless, I spouted off "I know this church is true" whenever I felt it was expected.

I remember the general conference back in the 70's when one of the GA's started all that. He said, "I don't BELIEVE the church is true [pause for shock effect], I KNOW the church is true." And that's when everyone else started saying it - at least that's when I NOTICED everyone starting to say it.

It's like you weren't quite faithful enough if you only BELIEVED and didn't KNOW.

sad sad sad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 01:39AM by seekyr.

It's a given

While TMC is a taking

The LDS church is as much a social group as it is a religion. An affinity group. So, when Mormons say they know the CHURCH is true rather than the gospel, maybe what they're really saying--unconsciously--is that they like the group of people they associate with. When they bear testimony, they're making a statement to the group that they conform to the group's standards and expectations. "I'm one of you. I believe, too."

Theism didn't completely fall apart for me when I first left Mormonism. For years I still believed a God existed. But going to a different church held no appeal to me. I'd had my fill of being told how and what to believe. In the meantime, I came across this board and read a lot.

After reading others' arguments for why there may not be a god, it occurred to me that I could rethink everything I'd ever been taught about religion. I could do this in the privacy of my own mind, taking as much time as I wanted, no rush to judgment, reading whatever the hell I wanted. If there was no compelling evidence to believe in any religion or god, why persist? And I thought fleeing from Mormonism was a relief. Not having to believe anything without good evidence was quite a relief too.

Now, I don't suffer anyone to tell me what I should or should not believe. It's totally up to me, and I don't think religions like it when you take that power away from them. That's money that never makes it into their pockets.

And one other benefit I've noticed from my unbelief is I don't feel compelled to tell anyone how to believe. This of course may be a byproduct from Mormonism where it is pounded into you that "every member a missionary."

That wasn't the case in my situation.

I worked my way out of mormonism by deciding to follow evidence wherever it led, even if that was to refute my own "beliefs." And that's just what the evidence did.

I found that approach so useful, that I applied it over and over again -- including to all claims about "god" things. Doing so led to atheism.

Essentially, I was brought up in the morg to "believe." Once I started dealing with knowledge instead of "belief," I stopped "believing" in the morg, and in claimed "god" things. For very good reasons. :)

When Mormons say "the one true church," they have no idea how insulting and off-putting it is to non-Mormons.

I suspect that the word "true" has hurt their recruiting efforts more than it has helped.

I've always thought that so many become atheists because they were not indoctrinated with the trininity growing up. So they left and many other churches teach the trinity, which is a confusing doctring to those not brought up with it, and especially for those who went on missions and know of scriptures which shed doubt on the trinity as taught in other churches.

So it is a tricky transition to go to a church that taught things so incredibly counterintuitive as the trinity for those not brought up with that doctrine.

"My aim is true," said the sniper.