I get the Mormons who swallow the BoA as being inspired even if the papyrus weren't of Abraham. It's hard but I do.

I get the Mormons who can believe in the Book of Mormon even though all evidence is missing or against it. Still could be inspired.

There's a lot more I get that they swallow and in a way I can understand how they have twisted and turned things until they seem acceptable or have decided to just go on faith and ignore all. I get that some people can do that.

BUT . . .

How does any Mormon, even the most brainwashed lacking of self respect Mormon accept the "Angel with the Flaming Sword is going to kill me if I don't marry your wife or teen daughter?"

I have no respect at this point for anyone who knows that and stays. That is not naiveté. That is beyond gullible. That is wearing your stupidity and lack of integrity proudly for all the world to see.

What the hell is that?

And way back then why didn't one of those men say "No Joseph. I don't care if the angel does turn you into a human shish kebab, you aren't getting my daughter."

I want to see TBMs everywhere stand up in the next sacrament meeting in front of everyone and say, "I know with every fiber of my being, beyond a shadow of a doubt that an Angel with a flaming sword commanded Joseph Smith to marry other men's wives and teenage girls and engage in as much polygamy as possible. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen."

They need to do this. They need to show the courage of their convictions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2014 12:13PM by blueorchid.

I don't get it but a lot of TBMs are fine with it. I also don't get the ones that are fine with him marrying 14 year old girls, or marrying women behind Emma's back.

I think they are so so brainwashed that they don't process this info like a normal person would. They immediately throw up a "shield" of sorts.

Dh had a conversation with his TBM mother yesterday, asking her what she thought of these new essays and if she had ever heard of this info before. The first thing she said was it just didn't matter to her, she wasn't bothered by it one bit, and if the prophet today commanded us to live the law of polygamy she'd have no problem with it at all. Then she proceeded to bear her testimony and told him God has a plan and will never lie or lead is astray, that we need to hold to the iron rod and blah blah blah.

I don't get it.

Is that you sis?

My mom is the same. She has a teflon testimony.

"... that we need to hold to the iron rod ..."

Maybe you can ask your MIL if you should hold to the rope instead of hold to the rod:

"Of this stream I could see neither the source nor yet the termination; but as far as my eyes could extend I could see a *ROPE* running along the bank of it, about as high as a man could reach, and beyond me was a low, but very pleasant valley, in which stood a tree such as I had never seen before. It was exceedingly handsome, insomuch that I looked upon it with wonder and admiration."

http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm#other

Hold to the rope!
The woven rope!
Tis strong, movable, and useful!
The woven rope is a tool of man!
Twill safely secure our cargo!

Three things:
1) They believe that the profit will never lead the church astray (so JS can't have been wrong about polygamy and polyandry);
2) Whatever the profit says God wants really IS what God wants;
3) Whatever God wants is right, no matter how wrong it may seem (which is basically what JS wrote to one of the teen hotties he was trying to marry).

"Everything I do is right because I do what "god" puts into my head..."

I'm sure a guy like him could get used to it.

What kills me about this kind of thinking is that people think it's MORAL for God to give commandments that will cause suffering and unhappiness for the rest of someone's life (particularly the women).

Isn't hurting people, or taking things from them (like their life, their property, or their freedom to pursue happiness) the very DEFINITION of immorality?

To accept that kind of commandment, that would cause misery, would require a person to believe that God is a masochistic jerk, and that He values submission over a personal sense of right and wrong.

As a TBM, I could have maybe chaulked up some of JS's actions as mistakes. But instead I have to belive they're from God.

A charismatic personality with a taste for fringe benefits like sex (polygamy) and money (Kirtland banking scheme) and often violence (Nauvoo Militia and going out in a blaze).

Old Joe fits quite comfortably into this mold. Too comfortably!

Any explanation that attempts to paint JS in full or or part a prophet takes lots and lots of explaining and includes lots of extenuating circumstances to make it plausible.

Or maybe the SOB was just a charlatan - no complicated explanation required. Not only do I think that, but he was just a garden variety charlatan - not even a standout of his ilk.

"Let cheribum and a flaming sword be placed before the tree of life...."

See, God does use flaming swords all the time!!!

Most Mormons are hearing these things for the first time. And for those hearing these things for the first time, it still doesn't sink in. I say cut them some slack. When all your friends and all your family are Mormons, it is incredibly easy to dismiss these stories and folk tales as anti-mormon devil literature written by sinning historians.

Even now that the church is admitting things it will take TBM's years to connect the dots. For most, Joseph saying an angel with a flaming sword commanded him marry a teenager fits the narrative. It is crazy and weird for those that have been out for awhile, but for many it fits. It fits because we have been conditioned to understand it as normal. Every temple session you hear about the flaming sword. You are programmed to obey and not doubt. So when you hear flaming sword + angel + polygamy the first thought isnt' "Holy f@#$@ sh#$ that is weird", your first thought is I wouldn't mess with a sword weilding angel either.

It will take time, but like the mustard seed, doubts will be planted and will continue to grow.

It took me 9 years after reading Rough Stone Rolling. Seeds were planted. It took moving from Utah, meeting normal non-mormons and going through the whole Prop 8 fiasco in CA before those seeds really bore fruit.

Is it weird that people hear Joseph's claims about the angel and don't immediately leave the church? Yes. But it is easy to understand them staying and not questioning the closer you are to having believed it all yourself.

Joseph's tale of the angel said the angel carried a drawn sword, not a flaming sword. people are conflating the temple narrative with Joe's tale.