My own opinion is that it will have little adverse impact and even embolden them to think the 'issue' has been settled so no longer any problem.

I remember asking one of my daughters how she would react if the prophet wanted to marry her then 12 year old daughter. Her answer, if that's what the Lord wants it is fine with me.

Anyway, here is a comment from a poster on another board who outline what the impact should be:-

"I can only assume that the way that Turley and Jensen presented the information in the Swedish Rescue coupled with these new essays sets the bar. The gauntlet is laid down. Either accept that Joseph Smith is our prophet and the angel with the drawn sword compelled him, or quit mormonism. One must assume no other motivations could be present. That frames it nicely. Even so, I think there is a range of possibilities for those who read the essays and absorb the information, minus the positive spin and omissions:

Our prophet was deeply troubled by polygamy. He only entered into the principle when his very life was threatened. (Yeah, right.)
Our prophet liked to fuck when he wasn't on duty as prophet. That's okay, he was fucking as a man, not a prophet. I'm sticking with mormonism.

Our prophet liked to fuck when he wasn't on duty as prophet. That's not okay. I'm sticking with mormonism despite his flaws for a variety of unrelated reasons. Or, if the coin falls the other way...I'm quitting mormonism. (Yay!)

Hey, this tips the balance for me. It shows conclusively our religion was founded on a con. The con includes every facet and is embedded at every level. The founder began as a grifter and learned his lessons well. From there, he took advantage of the flock in every way possible, including sexual advantage of the women who would say yes. I'm quitting mormonism.

It's a range of possibilities. Here is my assessment: It's more likely that members will quit after hearing this news. It's less likely new converts will join. It's very unlikely that Praise to the Man will be on the hymn board this coming Sunday."

Many on this board assume little or no effect on TBMs from this essay.

My take is that this kind of stuff has to be disturbing to the TBMs that hear it. Remember that they have grown up with a super-whitewashed version of Joseph Smith. Now, it will appear to them that they have been misled, which may lead to further investigation on other essays, etc.

My feeling is that this stuff is just too explosive to keep absolutely quiet. Most active TBMs could care less about the Book of Abraham's origins because it gets very complicated very fast. However, everyone is highly interested in Joseph Smith and everyone knows what adultery is. So, word will spread.

Will a major apostasy occur? No. Will members be disturbed? Yes. And this gives them one more reason to doubt church leaders.

If you do a good enough snowjob on us all then I'm going to send you all my tithes and then it'll rain in Utah and the drought will be over :)

"Most active TBMs could care less about the Book of Abraham's origins because it gets very complicated very fast. However, everyone is highly interested in Joseph Smith and everyone knows what adultery is."

I agree. I tried to talk through the BoA issues with my TBM wife, but she thinks it's a complicated matter...I lost her pretty quickly. It's really not that complicated, but she thought there must be some explanation that only an Egyptologist could understand.

On the other hand, we talked through the polygamy essay last night. She agreed that D&C 132 couldn't be the words of Jesus, that god would never send and angel with a sword, that the Alger ordeal was an affair (no sealing power), etc... There were a dozen or so points that clearly troubled her. I think this might have been the tipping point for her...belief-wise...still don't know if she'll ever give up activity in the church.

If I look at my website and Facebook stats, TBM's are viewing the polygamy essay about 9x more than they would view other new content.

Just the other day, I receveived a mail from a TBM moron who told me I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet about Joseph Smith having more than one wife and should read lds.org instead.

Talk about perfect timing!

I don't think the link I sent him will change his mind, though. Judging from the ALL CAPS, exclamation points and question marks ??!?!!!!?, the red bold underlined references to SATAN & the green bold underlined references to JESUS (in 48 pt Arial), I'm surprised he can even read at all...

O well, the church better get used to the average IQ of the elect dropping 20 points or so.

That is nice timing!

Normally he writes once a week but on this one, he got back to me today - just one day after I sent him the link. He copy-pasted all the apologetic bits and concluded that "YOU HAVE NOT CHANGED MY VIEW ON BROTHER JOSEPH. IF ANYTHING, YOU´VE ONLY MADE IT STRONGER !!!" (apart from the all caps and the exclamation points, also green, bold and underlined).

You just can't help brainwashed cultists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2014 04:55PM by rt.

I definitely think that many of those TBMs that read it will be concerned.

1) This will be news to a lot of members that have never heard these things in correlated lessons and countless talks and firesides. And not just any old TBMs, there will be missionaries, longstanding members and a lot of local church leaders introduced for the first time to JS's polygamy/polyandry

2) It's a poorly written essay that contradicts iteslf (i.e. conveniently claiming that without firsthand sources we can't know some of Emma's thoughts / but on the other hand inserting all sorts of speculative thoughts that JS may have had that might justify his behaviour)

3) They'll realise the uncomfortable truth that their beloved JS and the henious Warren Jeffs are really not poles apart

4) They'll consider that if they've been an active member/leader for 30+ years and this is the first time they've heard this info, what more has been hidden from them?

5) The essay tries hard to justify and excuse poor predatory behaviour. The part about why JS perhaps kept some stuff secret from Emma and didn't get her approval was an embarrassingly awful attempt at apologetics. Anyone with half a brain will realise this when reading it. You really can't polish a turd. TSCC has tried & failed.

6) In the world of extensive social media and TBMs airing their dirty magical laundry in public, more people will be inadvertently exposed to this essay than the church perhaps anticipates. You can try and hide it in an obscure part of a website, but it WILL find it's way out

7) TBMs might be forced to consider that all the things that they previously easily dismissed as anti-mormon lies, may in fact not be so. That's a pretty uncomfortable position for any TBM, even if they choose not to delve any deeper at this time


In closing I'd like to bear my testimony that based on the release of this challenging essay (the potential negative fallout of which has been carefully analysed to be even less detrimental than not releasing it at all) and the general theme of the last General Conference, it's clear that TSCC is truly loosing a lot of good, longstanding members at an alarmingly accelerating rate. All is not well in zion.

Based on my own experience I'd guess that the majority of members (perhaps 80%) wouldn't have known about JS polygamy. Out of the group that do know, I'd say another 80% of those aren't aware of just how many wives, ages of some of the younger ones and the polyandry.

So based on my very rough anecdotal and totally non-scientific guesses, the number of members that know all of the above would be about 4%!!

I would agree. I think that this will be a surprise to many folks.

I was in for 50 years. Not once did I ever hear it mentioned. I don't know any mormons that know about it. In fact, there were a couple people discussing it on FB the other day. The one giving out the information said, yes JS was sealed to some women, but they never had sex. Then went on to say how sick they were of people who said otherwise, because those people didn't know their history.

I had to laugh when I read that. Mormons are soooo sure they know everything there is to know about their history. They have no clue how much they've been lied to.

We will find out.

Last December I visited my girl friend's parents for a few days. They are very Mormon (girl friend is an ex Mormon). The mom asked me why I left the church, Initially I told her since we were all friends why discuss it? But she persisted.

One of the items it brought up was Smith's marriages to teenagers and other men's wives. She flatly refused to accept this and told me that she didn't believe that Smith ever did that.

It will be interesting to see her reaction to the essays.

I agree. This is the demographic to watch.

I really do think that there will be a significant impact... Even if it's just loading a shelf. I cannot imagine most TBMs justifying this in their minds. It certainly won't get them fired up to share the gospel with their friends.

Its what cracked my shelf.

I could have faith in a non literal translation of the book of abraham, I could doubt the book of mormon. Interpretation of doctrine can change but...

...having sex with other mens wives and marrying 14/17 year old's on the promise of eternal salvation has always and always will be wrong.

Old testament principle justification is ridiculous. Restoration of Jesus' church, not Moses.

Polyandry was ALL I needed to hear about.

As a woman, it totally, as one poster said, "CRACKED MY SHELF" too.

That was all I needed. I then KNEW 100% that polyandry was adultery which no loving God would command or approve, and that the entire church was a LIE!

I learned all of the rest later, and it did not matter that much, because I had already learned the truth, just through one simple word I had never before heard, "POLYANDRY". The truth, in that one simple word, had set me free!

Two words: inoculation and brainwashing.

TBMs are so used to swallowing whole anything the Morg puts out that few will give any thought to the content of the essay. Most of those will only skim it for key words to satisfy themselves that the Church is twoo and JS was a prophet. It will serve as inoculation so they can proclaim to others that TSCC is being open and transparent about tough issues. They'll then go on living in the bubble, satisfied that all is well.

How much "free agency" has God given you if your other choice is to be killed on the spot?

And ... It seems quite convenient that God totally insists that you have sex with a pretty young girl whether you like it or not, and not tell your wife whether she likes it or not.

When will Mormons ever grow up?

The TBMs in my family stay too busy with church to read the essays. I doubt they know these essays exist.

One or two I have spoken with have said to me, in essence, "Nope, not gonna look, and you can't make me!"

I think many won't know about them, many will know of them but not look at them, some will look at them but only with their "spiritual eyes". Some will read them and toss them aside, buying it all, hook line and sinker. A few discerning ones will be very troubled and will think of quitting but instead, put it all on a shelf, will want to discuss it with other LDS, and worry over it and study on it some more. A few more will simply read it, take in what it means, get up from the computer and bang! That's all she wrote. They are out.

But, if a lot of church growth now comes from other countries where polygamy is practiced and accepted or is part of their current or recent past, religious tradition already, even if not legal to do now, then the church may consider what they've done a very smart move. I don't, but that's beside the point.

Now, can anyone look at what is going on here and see the Early Christian church itself, as any different? Or the Christian church after its various correlations over the centuries?

It's real-time religion making, prophet and myth making and they are watering down what actually is, into what those who manage it want you to see.

We weren't there when people claiming to be apostles and early converts gathered up the legends and myths and fables of civilizations which had gone before them, and altered them enough to make them fit their beliefs, into the stories that the Bible came to be.

But we ARE here to see exactly how such mythmaking occurs, and is converted to a sort of spiritual truth, instead of actual truth, as is happening within the LDS church right now. We are seeing them separating the wheat from the chaff and changing both so drastically, that new schisms and offshoots of this sect will likely form. Just as happened in the beginning of the formation of Joseph's Myth once before, and happened and still happens in the mainstream Christian churches.

Joseph in the Jesus slot, being at first wholly believed and idolatrized, then vilified or thought of skeptically and having to be propped up and supported by lies that he communed with the divine and soon, wholly to be rehabilitated in a drastically altered form. More drastic even than when the modern LDS church started putting out all those Aryan-blond Joseph Smith depictions of him, making him handsome and noble looking and much taller, apparently, when in truth he was none of those things.

But today's LDS do think that is who he was, even in the face of all truth about him to the contrary. No one need convince them anymore, because they are on auto pilot now, fully capable of convincing themselves.

Then the true believers of the future, believing this new "reality" of their prophet even more than todays LDS believed the old, will sally forth and proclaim THIS Joseph from the rooftops. I bet at some point this figural death and rebirth of Joseph Smith will show up in some future LDS scriptures as "he died and was buried, but then walked out of a cave and then he lived again", just as in the Bible with Jesus.

The old documents disappearing, the archives being hoarded, pioneer diaries donated and never to be seen again, like similar things happening in the Catholic church, squirreled away for their own edification and understanding of the actual truth, but NOT for our understanding and certainly not for our eyes.

Soon all we will have is these essays and what the church and its members say and believe about them. For we and our thoughts and words will disappear too, when we die. And then who is to say and confirm what we say, is true? The church owns that website and the newspaper owns those comments we keep putting up, too. Who is to say that any digital archive will survive this, our own, age. Our books printed now are so fragile they won't last too much longer, either.

What will be the witness that there was something they omitted, altered, diluted, changed or lied about? Will we be, in a later time, the people whose writings cannot be found to verify that this prophet was not who his supporters say he was? The witnesses to the fact that this prophet's death and resurrection, never occurred?

Quick! Someone learn sculpture and bronze work and get really good at oil painting, and start making new monuments to the REAL truth of what's going on.

Our witness will be in the many, many smart young people between 20 and 35 that are leaving today.

They are internet savy and very smart and way ahead of the game.

They are not afraid to search the internet for answers, and they are finding them, easily, and telling their friends.

Many thousands are leaving. I personally know MAMY, even in my own immediate and extended family.

So they leave, and then their future generations are out, and all the old folks die and what does that leave the church with?

Not a whole lot!!!

I see the whole thing as the judge finally being judged. The facts are out on the Mormon church. Cover-up is no longer a viable option and will only work on the very hard-core cult victims.

The church is doing the same thing as any other criminal who is obviously guilty. What is this admission? Plea bargaining. They are hoping for lighter sentence by admitting the truth.

And TBMs will buy it. TBM's will give them a pardon. Anything to hang onto the myth that has become their drug of choice.

One thing that jumped out at me from the essay. They admitted that "carefully worded denials" were and are an acceptable practice.

Be sure to send it out to your favorite TBMs otherwise they may never see it.

I don't think they will even notice. Most TBMs I know are way too busy with church obligations to realize there are serious questions about their religion, much less that their church is doing essays addressing those problems. If I told them, they'd probably shrug it off with the attitude "See, the church is open and honest - sorry you have a problem with it." The actual content of any of the essays would pass them right by without notice.

Even with their spin, the story as really happened will make it clear that it's a fraud. The more details, the worse it looks.

Even if most people won't know about the essays, they will be gradually integrated into the curriculum and eventually, will be common knowledge among TBMs. It may take one or two generations, though.

They know the Church is doomed. The essays merely make its end less painfull.

I would call your daughter out on her willingness to throw her child into a pedopheliac sham of a marriage! What kind of mother does that to her child?!! If any man was so brazen to think I would give my child to him, it would be over his dead body!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2014 12:55PM by builderbob.

The church is the teat from which TBM's draw their very life; leaving the cave is unthinkable, leaving the tribe is unthinkable, the world outside the cave is evil.

What choice do you think typical TBM's have?

I have read here that people left the church when GBH gave his infamous 60 minutes interview. A friend of mine left over Hoffman. This will likely shake a few more people loose.

It also shows the church is tired of defending lies. They know that people are finding out about this and calling them liars. Putting this out there will shock a few people, but it may help them keep a few more long term.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2014 03:47PM by axeldc.

As in Watergate, the real crime is the (continuing) cover-up. I have been lied to my entire life of nearly six decades.

The emperor has no clothes.

My life wasn't ruined, merely twisted. I'm working really hard to undo the damage to this day.

Nixon was portrayed as a victim of a witchhunt, blah, blah, blah.

I'm talking about cover ups in general. Leave the politics out of it. You completely missed my point.

My initial response was, "Last week, you would have been called anti-Mormon for publishing this information."

My "favorite" part is the start of the final paragraph. They go through this lengthy discussion of JS, admitting he slept with a 14 year old and having multiple wives while lying about it, and then they conclude with this gem:

Conclusion
Marriage between one man and one woman is God’s standard for marriage, unless He declares otherwise, which He did through His prophet, Joseph Smith. The Manifesto marked the beginning of the return to monogamy, which is the standard of the Church today.

So, they are not hypocrites for defending "traditional marriage" despite JS's multiple wives. They were commanded by God himself to be polygamists, but today's standing law is monogamy. Tomorrow, God could tell them to be polygamists again, but he will never, ever, never, ever, never tell them to accept gay monogamy.

Love you Tom, but your daughter who would let an adult man marry her 12 year old is one twisted person.

Sorry brother...

I think it makes almost no difference to 99.9% of them. They could be sent to hell and told by Satan himself that they were duped and it was all a pack of lies from the get-go and I'd wager that most would still believe in Joseph Smith and dismiss Satan as some sort of anti mormon trick.

is the key. Since the Search function on lds.org does not return links to the essays, unless they manually go through each topic or someone points them to the links, they will never see them, let alone read them!

Just mho. YMMV

To me these essays demonstrate how calculated and cunning the church-cult was in how they presented these essays; they attempted to make their impact as minimal as possible but at the same time attempted to appear that they were being upfront and honest.

Two of the ploys used were no signatures on the essays and to sort of put them out there, but then quickly hide them on the LDS.org.

I hate to admit it, but I think the church-cult accomplished what they set out to do.....the church is right at the top of how to play the game of dishonesty and deceit. It so reeks of plain evil that it makes me ill.

I think the polygamy essay may garner a slight more impact, but nothing earth shattering, just because the subject is polygamy - a subject that many people have strong feelings about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2014 04:42PM by presleynfactsrock.

From an old post:


In Nauvoo the problem was that Joseph Smith created TWO CHURCHES not ONE and these two churches completely CONTRADICTED each other. This is one of the most salient proofs that Smith was not following any divine direction.

One "secret church" was hiding inside the other, this Inner Church believed in and practiced polygamy -- supposedly by God's direct commandment. This is documented by the Mormon Church itself (LDS genealogy library, LDS depositions collected in the 1800's etc.).

The second "public church" was being told that God DIDN'T CONDONE polygamy and that polygamy WASN'T being practiced. This too is documented by the Mormon church itself (Nauvoo City Council records, Smith's own statements,local Church Newspapers, and even the early editions of the D&C and church pamphlets distributed in England)!

Supposedly, by direct revelation, God was saying totally contradictory things at the same time -- that is impossible for an honest and consistent God.

The publisher of the “Nauvoo Expositor” brought this impossibility to light. Smith and the City Leaders destroyed his business property without due legal process (caused a riot). Smith went to jail for this and other reasons and was killed there.

The church eventually divided, one group (Utah Mormons) followed Smith's polygamy church, the other (RLDS) followed Emma's (Smith's wife) non-polygamy assertions -- and BOTH churches could justify their beliefs due to Smith's contradictory words!

Was this the evidence of a "house of order"? Was this the work of a just and consistent God? No, this was obviously hypocrisy; It was exactly what Christ described as the evidence of a False Prophet! Christ said to judge False Prophets by their fruits (lies and hypocrisy) and that such dead roots can't create a living tree.

As a result, to this very day, the Mormon Church avoids the fact that polygamy was practiced in Nauvoo because it requires admitting that Smith clearly lied.

Thus,in a TV interview, President Gordon B. Hinckley claimed that polygamy started “when the saints moved west” – this was an outright (but necessary) lie because the only choice that's left is this:


Either Smith lied -- or God lied!


What's the choice?

+

VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION: I totally agree with you this and blacks in the Priesthood were the reasons I could never fully embrace Mormonism. I was BIC, had all 3 of my kids baptized. We are all out now. BUT I always knew about the Polygamy. I don't get why so many Mormons haven't heard about this part of the church??????? I'm 51 years old and I had these discussions with my parents in High School all the time. Why do you think so many Mormons didn't know about Polygamy?

TBM's can be frustrating and worse, absolutely agonising.

But there is hope.

I spoke with what can only be described as an ex JW today.

He served 40 years having been a convert in his twenties.

Occasionally he heard something very uncomfortable but dismissed it as apostate lies, because he was 'cult programmed' to do so.

Later he somehow finds out those little snippets of Apostate lies were true but put them on the shelf together with any apologetic excuse given him.

Every little thing helps because it will all add up to the 'tipping point'.

This former JW had a tipping point and then decided he was going to read forbidden apostate material and was absolutely blown away!

He said this ( best I can recall)

'I can't believe I spent 40 years faithfully and with the occasional doubts as to watchtower claims of sole authority and being the chosen anointed (by Christ) before I decided to investigate them more thoroughly and finally look at the history outside of what they taught me'.

'I am shocked to realise I was actually being brainwashed/lied to. People I met at the door on the door to door Ministry would tell me I was being brainwashed and involved in a cult that splits families and they were right, BUT I couldn't see it'.


He was the one who taught me 30 years ago. Nice bloke, nice family. Ideal people for putting honesty and integrity first.

He got quite high up in the ranks of his local ward and wanted to be Honest in all things ( as taught) and found it a struggle as Jehovahs name (ie PR and Spin for the cult) was more important to the leaders above him than telling the truth. He responded to them eventually that he is certain Jehovah can protect his own name and reputation and doesn't need him to tell lies on his behalf. !!!!!

He ended up in a Judicial Committee, same as what Mormons call Church Disciplinary Action.

Now he gets all the JW apostate updates(from other JW's with doubts)and is continually amazed at what he didn't know.

As with JW's, Yesterdays TBM's are tomorrows exMo's. Which tomorrow is the anguishing part unfortunately.

PS edit...... I personally found Polygamy from early Mormonism absolutely horrendous. I felt sick when I discovered the reality of it, coercion, threats of hell, Old cult leaders rounding up young defenceless girls. Horrendous. What a sick crappy Moronic God they followed or claimed to follow.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2014 05:00PM by zeezrom.