I'm not familiar with Judaism enough to know what the implications of a Jew eating pork is.

As a Mormon I knew that drinking coffee would keep me out of heaven (celestial kingdom), and keep me out of the temple. I also knew that if a ward member saw me drinking coffee they would never treat me the same.

Is it the same scenario with Jews eating bacon? Is it more of a guideline to them or is it a law? If a Jewish family member eats bacon are they looked upon as a second-class Jew?

I'm not sure of the analogy. As a coffee-drinking-Mormon I am not able to see eternity with my family, pretty serious. Is it that serious when you eat bacon in the Jewish faith?

There are different levels of Orthodoxy in the Jewish faith. Many Orthodox Jews will keep two kitchens and two sets of cookware in order to ensure any possibility of rendering food non-kosher is eliminated.

That said, the pork distinction is a bright line. The two kitchens would be more analogous to Mormons that don't drink cola -- seen as going overboard by many if not most of their more mainstream compatriots.

So, eating pork is a pretty bad violation. Because Judaism lacks for any kind of hierarchy like the LDS church, you'll have a hard time getting an answer as to whether or not it will preclude you from heaven. It is, however, a law (from their perspective) and you will be looked down upon if you eat bacon.

A story I heard many, many years ago in an AA meeting I was forced to participate in.

This guy was a cook in the US Navy at a major base on the west coast. A middle eastern country had bought some ships from the US navy and had sent over hundreds of guys for training in them, and these guys were all Muslims.

So this guy and his buddies were drunk making breakfast for all of them in a huge cafeteria, and they though it would be huge fun change the signs to conceal certain pork products in the cafeteria line.

Afters serving hundreds of meals, and while the Muslims were eating, an American officer notices the deed and announces it to the room.

Apparently a near riot happens.

I think some take it very seriously.

This guy was never apprehended for the deed in the investigation.

Muslsims aren't jewish people.

I think if they ate it innocently without knowing, they would not be guilty of sin.

On the other hand, there are Jews who don't worry about it.Jews come in many varieties.

She was hilarious about it. Being very weight and health-conscious, she would tear it apart, eating only the red part, not the fat. When the rest of us would tease her about shredding her bacon like this, she would reply, with mischief twinkling in her eyes, "Is it my fault that my mother never taught me how to eat bacon??"

(Her mother was the two-refrigerator, two-dishwasher type, but a very sweet lady nonetheless.)

Several of my non-orthodox yet practicing Jewish friends regularly eat bacon and other pork products (one of them introduced me to a great local Vietnamese restaurant, where he ordered me the "barbecue chopped pork" along with his own order, and proclaimed it "heaven").

Their rabbis don't exclude them from services, or from having their kids bar-mitvahed, or anything else. They're all full, active, respected members of their religious community.

Nowadays in the US, the majority of Jews have ditched many of the "dietary laws," though there is still a stricly kosher establishment.
However, in Islam, even in the US, things are much more strict. Islam is like Judaism was 2,000 years ago, and like what christianity was 1000 years ago.

My late husband was jewish and he ate pork as did his family. If you are orthodox then yes but for most jews, this is no big deal.

I think a good way of looking at it is that, for Jews, the various (613 numbered...plus a bunch, including some of the most important ones, which are not numbered) "laws" are more like guidelines.

The idea for observant Jews is to, by individual decision(s), follow as many of the laws as they REASONABLY can in their own lives. Towards this end, a percentage of Orthodox (including Modern Orthodox) Jews move from their home countries to Israel every year, because some of the Jewish laws can ONLY be observed in the land of Israel, and therefore, moving to Israel gives them the OPPORTUNITY to observe some laws that they otherwise would not be able to.

Non-observant Jews do, frequently, NOT follow Jewish laws that they know full well are "there." Easy example: a wife doesn't go to the mikvah after her menstrual period is over, yet she and her husband have sex---and if they decide that this is what they want to do, then that is their choice.

AT WORST, the attitude of "God" (in the typical Jewish conception of the term) would be like a parent whose rambunctious child just knocked a heirloom vase off a shelf and shattered it beyond repair. You would be sad at the loss of the vase which was precious to you, but you would also understand that your child wasn't yet of an age to understand how important and significant that vase was to you, so you give your child a genuine hug and a loving kiss...and then you clean up the shattered vase pieces.

In my Bat Mitzvah class, one of the women I got to know best proclaimed in class one night: "But I LIKE bacon!!!" And our congregational rabbi said: "Then continue eating it...even under even the strictest interpretation of the law, the God we know will understand."

This isn't true for all of the Jewish laws of course: Murder is not ever acceptable, etc. (Which is one of the reasons why there is a recent sudden spike in IDF---Israeli Defense Forces---suicides...murder is NOT ever acceptable, and increasing numbers of Israeli military personnel are deciding that, too often, what they are doing IS "murder" under Jewish, as well as human, law. Ditto: "theft"--of Palestinian land, possessions, etc., which they are also carrying out.)

Lots of Jews eat pork (and shrimp, crab, etc.)...lots of Jews are vegetarian, or near vegetarian. There is a numerical minority of Jews who "keep kosher" when it comes to the food they eat.

It is up to each Jew as to which laws they will observe, or choose not to observe.

And everyone figures that if their hearts and minds are in the right places, God---if there IS a God---will understand.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2014 02:18PM by tevai.

Jews follow the old testament as well as their own books (Torah and kabbalah)

The old testament outlined rules about a lot of foods including pork and shell fish (yes, shell fish)

Whenever someone starts bible thumping about gays being an abomination, I point out that it also says that eating pork and shellfish (that would include shrimp and Lobster) was also an abomination according to the bible. then I ask them when they last had a piece of bacon, shrimp salad or cocktail, Lobster tails or lobster or crab in any form.

In those days food was often forbidden because of possible disease. Pork was known up until just recently for being carriers of trichinosis which is a parasite that can be passed to humans and only destroyed by careful cooking and not eaten rare. I think jews maintained some of the rules the way some Mormons felt we should not abandon polygamy.

As for coffee, correct me if i'm wrong but I thought that initially mormons drank coffee but then Joseph Smith had one of his "revelations" and told people that now they couldn't.
For me, drinking coffee was my first step in leaving everything.
A TBM looks at coffee drinking as nothing short of heresy and the first step towards apostasy. LOL and they are right.

Jews are not excommunicated and I think the changes they make are often simply attributed to the natural evolution of a belief system over several thousand years.

Mormons, on the other hand, live their lives with veiled threats for just about every rule on the books. They run their lives on fear of reprisal rather than a dedication to God which is what religion should be about.

Mags Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jews follow the old testament as well as their own books (Torah and kabbalah)
>
Just as an FYI, "kabbalah" is not a book. It's the mystical beliefs that some Jews believe. Perhaps you were thinking of the Talmud?

You are right. Thank you for correcting that. When I heard about them studying Kabbalah, I assumed they mean't a book. I do remember it being mystical, however. It was the Talmud I was thinking about.

Perhaps you know something about the origination of these books and beliefs. I have been interested in knowing from whence these came as they are obviously not recognized by Mormons as scripture yet perhaps they are. I don't know that much about them.

The Talmud is, for the most part, exposition on the Torah (the oral commentary on either the first five books of the OT...or, alternatively, the entire "whole" of Jewish teachings/myths/laws/customs, etc.)

The Talmud is divided into two parts: the Mishnah, and the Gemara---which are, together, considered the Talmud...except that the "oral commentary" continues to this day and will continue forward in the years and centuries to come, and the newer "writings" are ALSO considered by most Jews to be "Talmud" also.

(And this IS confusing...and I STILL have to look it up!!! :) )

The Mishnah is dated at APPROXIMATELY the year 200 C.E. (but contains the oral commentaries from AT LEAST the Babylonian captivity (607 BCE to 586 BCE), to the year 200 C.E.).

The Gemara is dated at circa the year 600 C.E.

The Talmud consists of the decisions and opinions of literally thousands of rabbis over all of the periods discussed above (and, again, continuing into our contemporary times...with the practical decisions and opinions as a result of the WWII Holocaust heavily contributing to the more contemporary writings).

The rabbis are typically identified by name, but generally not identified by year, etc. and most of what is considered the "traditional" Talmud (Mishnah plus Gemara) is written as if all of these rabbis were living in present time and were debating with each other: "Rabbi X said this...but Rabbi Y said [this other thing], etc."

Between all of these arguments, which are assumed to have begun at least in the seventh century BCE, and which continue into "today," it gives an often huge treasury of material to buttress conflicting arguments about Jewish law.

Super Orthodox males study Talmud their entire lives (as their "career")---while they are financially supported by their families, or the employment of their wives, or the State (as in Israel---through a number of practical ways). It is a given that men who study Talmud this way (as their "career") ARE married and, almost to a person if they are biologically capable, ARE fathers. This is to keep them grounded, so they don't go into some kind of superconscious mental state that is near to, or indistinguishable from, mental illness.


This requirement of marriage and children (plus an additional requirement of being a minimum of forty years old) is even more pronounced for those who traditionally study Kaballah, which involves advanced levels of spirituality and mysticism at what is supposed to be a very high level. I am not of the personal opinion that Kaballah is useful or factual...but many people (not all of them Jews, by any means) would vehemently disagree with me.

Thanks, tevai, for a solid overview.
I'm not Orthodox, but I keep kosher (maybe a sloppy kosher from some strict interpretations, since my beef hasn't necessarily been handled just-so by the butcher...); my more observant friends, when they learn of my sloppiness, shrug with an attitude of "Everyone finds his own way." They recognize I'm making an effort. For me, it is a spiritual discipline and an act of solidarity.

Talmud has a discussion about how a pregnant woman should get whatever food she craves-- even if it's pork, even if it's on Yom Kippur.
There's a story in which a strictly Orthodox man is told by his doctor that the man's young child needs a nutrient only found in pork. The Orthodox man went and got a separate frying pan for his child, and the child had all the bacon.
It's really not about "getting into heaven." It's about living well.

touchstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks, tevai, for a solid overview.
> I'm not Orthodox, but I keep kosher (maybe a
> sloppy kosher from some strict interpretations,
> since my beef hasn't necessarily been handled
> just-so by the butcher...); my more observant
> friends, when they learn of my sloppiness, shrug
> with an attitude of "Everyone finds his own way."
> They recognize I'm making an effort. For me, it
> is a spiritual discipline and an act of
> solidarity.
>
> Talmud has a discussion about how a pregnant woman
> should get whatever food she craves-- even if it's
> pork, even if it's on Yom Kippur.
> There's a story in which a strictly Orthodox man
> is told by his doctor that the man's young child
> needs a nutrient only found in pork. The Orthodox
> man went and got a separate frying pan for his
> child, and the child had all the bacon.
> It's really not about "getting into heaven." It's
> about living well.

Thanks, touchstone. :)

Yes...there is absolutely "wiggle room" throughout Jewish law, and it is put in there intentionally so people---both rabbis and just regular people---will THINK. Jews highly value intelligence and intelligent, logical thought, and there are safeguards throughout Judaism to try to prevent people from just mindlessly obeying without considering both the implications, as well as the ultimate consequences, of their actions.

From this come five-year-olds who can debate, often on a fairly sophisticated level, with their mother or father on whether they should or should not [name whatever the five-year-old wants, or does NOT want, here ;) ]. By the time those kids are taking SATs etc., and competing in universities, they are often well on their way to some highly-sought-after positions in their various cultures.

And it all begins, in one way or another, with something like a child hearing his observant Jewish mother asking for bacon during her pregnancy, and listening to the various, often conflicting, logical thought progressions which then occur.

Thanks again, touchstone!!! :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2014 03:47PM by tevai.

Actually, uncured pork is scientifically proven to be bad for you: http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/how-does-pork-prepared-in-various-ways-affect-the-blood/

Cured pork, like ham and bacon are okay.

Coffee is generally good for you unless you load it up with sugar and creamers or turbocharge the caffeine level.

aka wonton soup

I say it's all right in the season thereof.

The greatest sin is eating a cheeseburger. Mixing meat and dairy products is an abomination. Eating bacon, sausage, or pepperoni is nothing compared to metaphorically cooking a kid in its mother's milk.

These days, whenever I go to Carl's, I order cheeseburgers without the cheese. Even then, I refuse to allow the word "cheeseburger" to pass my lips. I figure it's okay to type the word, especially here since I'm anonymous.

I wouldn't worry too much. From what I hear about the food industry, I'm not so sure that there is any dairy product in the cheese that they put on a fast food cheeseburger. LOL

LOL good point. Some of the cheap slices contain more vegetable oil than milk, and very little cheese...

Pigs were unclean in the old world to the Hebrews; I guess they just did not like swine. For one thing if you did not cook them correctly at a high temperature they would make you sick with Trichinosis or trichiniasis, which is a parasitic disease caused by eating raw or undercooked pork. But Joseph Smith just did not like coffee that is the only reason; he did not like hot drinks. So drink coffee and enjoy. Oh and since Jesus died for everyone, enjoy your bacon as well. All things are now good to eat and drink, God does not make junk. The old has been done away with and all things are now new. Also remember Joseph Smith was not a Hebrew therefore could not be a true Prophet of God. Joseph was an Anglo Saxon “Smith” and not from the tribes of Israel and Judea, God picked his Prophets from a selected people, the children of Abraham. Prophets predicted the coming of Christ, he came, and therefore we do not need any more Prophets in this world. Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross, and he really meant it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2014 08:53PM by zenith.

Ive always felt that pigs were "unclean" food for one reason. They eat what we eat. Think about it. Cows take something we CAN'T eat (grass) and turn it into things we CAN eat (milk, beef).

Pigs eat grain, just like people. And they eat a LOT of it. It doesn't make fiscal sense to feed an animal thousands of pounds of food to get 200 lbs. of food.

Always made more sense to me. Plus, pigs are smarter than dogs, very clean and biologically, very close to human. (Anyone else on this board ever dissect a fetal pig, because it's so much like a human?). How many cannibalistic peoples STILL refer to human meat as "long pig?"LOL

A story

Many years ago I used to go into a deli for breakfast.

The owner of a clothing store also went in there. Murray would point to the ham and say "I'll have a slice of that and eggs. the counterman would say "ham and eggs coming right up"

Murray would say "NO I'm Jewish I don't eat pork."

This scenario went on for several days. Finally I told the counterman "When Murray points at the ham don't say ham and eggs just cook it" He did and Murray had Ham and eggs. As long as nobody told him what it was he rationalized eating it.


Sound familiar in context?

A TBM may think that, coming from a position of ignorance and stupidity.

Ron Burr