Just been engaged in a discussion with a Mormon and they send me this little gem, can you believe it? How does one fight against such brain washing? This is his comment after he challenged me to name just one wife who was married to another man when Joseph Smith took her as a wife also (I managed to name him 13), anyway here's his comment:



"I do not use FAIR, ever. I research myself. I do not rely upon the works of another because I have no idea how diligent they were.

Now where did you get that list from? Your own research or from an anti-Mormon organization. You do not need to answer that.

Emma Smith, Joseph's 1st and only wife, says Joseph never had more than one wife, her. Emma did not remain in the LDS Church. She went with the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS). So that was not made up by the Mormons.

The list you have is a list of women who had themselves sealed to Joseph Smith after his death. There are thousands of women who did that until the LDS Church ended the practice.

When you rely on the works of others you embarrass yourself every time.

Now do you want to discuss pedophile priests?????????"

Well. He really put you in your place, didn't he?

I stand all amazed. This is a classic example of that special combination of arrogance and stupidity that Mormons have mastered.
And the diversion at the end? Tacky.

I think you should have choice words for him, specifically from a song by Ceelo Green: F--k You

Go pick him up a copy of "In Sacred Loneliness" (Compton) or "Joseph Smith's Polygamy" (Hales). Both are believers.

I'm surprised that your friend is hanging on to the old position of the RLDS church. From what I understand, even they ultimately abandoned that position.

I guess send him to familysearch.org.

yeah, encourage him to do his own research.

Let him know the "list" comes from the church's own records. And that it's been confirmed officially by the church.

Then tell him what an idiot he is.

Emma Smith, Joseph's first and lonely wife, said Joseph never should have had more than one wife. Emma joined the anti-Brighamites in the RLDS.

Now you want to discuss bishops who talk to children about masturbation?

My husband wouldn't believe me about Joseph Smith marrying teenagers until I had him look up the information on FamilySearch. That really knocked him on his side. Your friend must be awfully young to think Joseph didn't have wives during his lifetime. My 74-year-old TBM mom was shocked when I told her there were people in the younger generation who DIDN'T believe Joseph Smith had other wives than Emma. She'd known that for years and thinks people like your friend are shamefully ignorant about the church's teachings.

Yeh, and for sure this Mormon is doing just this, as he claims: "I research myself. I do not rely upon the works of another because I have no idea how diligent they were."

Who could ever not rely on the works of others and do all the research themselves?

Paleeez, it is just not humanly possible.

This guy wants to pick and choose who he finds reliable, plain and simple. Butt, he will not tell you that because he has been indoctrinated to think and see life one way----the Moron way.

astonished Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> "I do not use FAIR, ever. I research myself. I do
> not rely upon the works of another because I have
> no idea how diligent they were.
. . .

> The list you have is a list of women who had
> themselves sealed to Joseph Smith after his death.

Ask him to footnote the research he did, himself, that showed this.

Before you go further with proof of JS polygamy, ask your friend one question: Will it make any difference to you if you learned he had many wives?

Don't let him wiggle out of answering that.

If he answers that it won't make a difference, then do nothing.

If it will make a difference, then give him a copy of Compton's book.

JS polygamy is no secret.

This is the best advice right here.

I would add that it not only isn't a secret, it is FOUNDATIONAL to the Mormon church. Only uniformed idiots think otherwise. A bigger issue might be just why is it that some mormons don't know this stuff...what does that say about their church and the bullshit line about "not hiding our history". The fact your idiot friend exists is proof they do hide things.

I guess the official (at the time, now Emeritus) LDS Church Historian and Q70 member, Marlin K. Jensen can't be trusted as officially acknowledging JS's practice of polygamy and polyandry.

http://roadkilldelight.com/NOM/SFMJRT.htm

Bite Me Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess the official (at the time, now Emeritus)
> LDS Church Historian and Q70 member, Marlin K.
> Jensen can't be trusted as officially
> acknowledging JS's practice of polygamy and
> polyandry.
>
> http://roadkilldelight.com/NOM/SFMJRT.htm

Or the earlier assistant church historian, Andrew Jenson, who compiled and published a list of Joseph Smith's wives in the 1890s.

Emma's statement, so often quoted, was likely made to protect her children's view of their father. She knew it was a lie. She is contradicted by the statements of many other women who were in fact Joseph's wives. So, do you believe Emma's testimony, or the testimony of dozens of other women who were victims?

WOW.....EVEN as a TBM I knew JS had more then one wife. I didn't think the church even denied that.

So his argument of 100's of women marrying themselves to JS after his death is what my wife told me too. I had NEVER heard that even as a TBM. So not sure where that floats around. Is there some anti-anti lit floating around that I don't know about?
Like "How to answer those anti-mormon questions!"

I agree with others....family.search.org is where where I went to to find out for myself. I didn't take others words for it. There is where I saw him married to married women and 14 yr olds. But from what your friend said...they are in denial that he ever married ANYONE else besides Emma. So I would say it would't matter what you said or showed to them. They are very closed minded.

His son, Joseph Smith III, was offered a number of testimonies from JS's plural wives, probably including Elizra R. Snow and Zina Huntington.

You can do your own research on that; I just can't get that interested in JS's philanderings. Murders by Mormons in Utah are a much more engaging subject for me these days than adultery (Okay, that one's a wholesale rippoff of a Sandra Tanner one-liner, but it deserves recycling).

It's inconceivable to me that women in 19th Century America would admit to such extra-marital dalliances if they weren't true, and they engaged in them under the mantle of religious sanctions.

dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum

"There are thousands of women who did that..."

So when your friend gets to the CK he'll see Joe Smith and his thousands of wives?

That's crazy-ass right there.

The comment is the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la la la la I can't hear you".

Infantile beyond belief but at the same time Mormon behaviour 101.

Just send them to their room to cool down.

Haha! That's ridiculous. What about other priesthood holders that were commanded to practice polygamy? My 4th great-grandfather had 8 wives and my family are descendants from his 8th wife! We have always known this and my grandparents make it seem like we owe our lives to polygamy. It's pathetic.

Ask him how long he has been a member of the Restorationist church of JC of LDS and ask him why he attends the mormon church and just how he is able to answer this question:

Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

There aren't many deniers left but here is one of the bigger groups: http://res=torationbookstore.org/jsfp-index.htm (wouldn't link...take out the "=" then it will)

Might want to ask him why the mormon church doesn't own the temple lot in Independence and the Kirtland temple. He might want to look at the case history and see just what the Utah Church was saying about the first prophet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2014 01:20PM by onendagus.

Have your friend read Melissa Lott Willes' testimony on pages 313-316 of the transcript of the Temple Lot case. You can find the docuement in digitized format at https://archive.org/stream/TempleLotCase/Temple_Lot_Case#page/n317/mode/2up. This is a primary document, straight from the horses' mouth, attested to by Willes, a faithful Mormon who moved to Utah with the part of the church that followed Brigham Young. In this legal document she indicates that she married Joseph "for time and eternity" not just "eternity." She also testified that both she and Smith agreed to be each other's "companion, husband and wife, observing the legal rights belonging to this condition, that is keeping yourselves wholly for each other and from all others during your lives."

All it takes is one to show that JS was a dyed-in-the-wool polygamist

You friend's first point is that Emma denied her husband was practicing polygamy. Maybe so. She certainly hated it.
But Joe was at it, as their Student Manual intro to D&C 132 shows:


https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-132-138/section-132-marriage-an-eternal-covenant?lang=eng

Oh nice! I LOVE how it has him covered in that

"The Prophet knew the Lord’s will on plural marriage within the new and everlasting covenant probably as early as 1831..." So Fanny was just an early marriage perhaps.