My 15 year old had an LDS guy friend that is in full on debate mode with her. Tonight he texted her the question "What did Joseph Smith get out of it?" From his point of view, Joseph Smith would never have chosen to be prophet because all he got was persecution, disdain, hard work and trials and only someone who loved God and had been called by God to be his prophet be willing to suffer all that for his testimony.

I literally laughed out loud when she asked me to help her answer that and then replied "for starters, women." Then I explained to her that the Smith family were poor white trash in the eyes of their community and Joseph's Myth gave them admirers, money, position, grandiose ideas and fed their narcissism. It also gave them a way to con people out of money that was more effective than a divining rod or a fake treasure map. Did I forget any important points she might want to share with her friend?

Well, for starters a house:

"7 And again, it is meet that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun.,
should have a house built, in which to live and translate."

--D&C 41:7

When you can just claim a "revelation from God" and get your
followers to build you a house you've got real MOJO. And this
was in Feb of 1831, before he started screwing the wives and
daughters of his followers.

+1000

The more you look into the Smith family history, as in when Joseph was young, the more it all makes sense.

No home, dad liked a drink, brother died, mum in the head, visions and prophecies about Joseph by his father, the ladies, his penchant for the mystical.

You say this is her GUY friend...?

Just tell him JS got to screw at least 50 women, "fake married" to over 30 if them!. That is all he needs to know.

One hell of a ride!

Joseph Smith did have a difficult time for sure, but he also got positive things out of it, power, excitement, money, fame, etc.

a result of his own behavior...
Fawn Brodie documents how the famous tar-and-feathering incident was retaliation for his making advances on someone's underage daughter
The escape from Ohio, escape from prosecution for securities fraud, not persecution

He continued a path of increased delusions of grandeur, eventually becoming mayor of Nauvoo, head of an army, presidential candidate and even had himself declared "king of the world." Coupled with his secret multiple adultery, this got a lot of people very distressed. He created a powder keg of opposition. The spark that ignited it was the destruction of that printing press.

Destroying a press in those days would be like launching a huge denial-of-service attack on a website today. Made a lot of people angry.

"How to succeed in real estate", by Joseph Smith.

* Trick gullible people into believing that you speak for God.
* Buy cheap frontier land in Ohio.
* Tell your gullible followers that they MUST gather to the area where you happened to purchase cheap frontier land.
* Sell your land at big markups.
* Repeat in Missouri and Illinois.
* Just to be sure you fleece your flock as completely as possible and to provide the capital required to purchase cheap frontier land, implement the United Order to take all of their property and wealth.
* If the United Order thing blows up in your face, create an illegal bank and produce a revelation from God that appeals to the greed of your gullible followers by promising that the bank will consume all others in the land.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2014 10:50AM by Facsimile 3.

What a great way to frame it. Good one.

I was going to be really bad and use one five letter word starting with "p" followed by an explanation point, but you would not want to use that with your fifteen year old daughter.

You pretty much nailed it.

Thousands of people hanging on your every word is quite the ego trip and when you were raised as poor white trash and were getting by in life as a glasslooker and scryer, that kind of ego trip is intoxicating and addictive. That kind of adoration is like a drug to a narcissist.

The boy making the argument needs to throw out the preconception that Joseph was an innocent farm boy and start with only facts in the argument. No debate should include preconceived notions.

And as a far as persecution, Joseph gave as good as he got. And many would say the supposed persecution was really retaliation or self protection.

He had all the women he could want. He was playing God (literally). He was making financial gains on it and power. By the time of his death, he was the most powerful man in Western Illinois.

He was the Mayor who headed the city council of Nauvoo, the Chief Justice of their municipal court, the head of the Nauvoo Legion, prophet of God, economic leader in Nauvoo, and had control over the lives of thousands of people. He could control the Mormon vote to win any election in Hancock County and the 6th Congressional District. He was powerful. Through the city council he could issue habeas corpus for any Nauvoo citizen to be tried in Nauvoo in front of the himself and chosen leaders of the church.

So, yeah he had all sorts of reasons to stay in it.

As already mentioned by baura he got himself a house built. And there is more.

D&C 41 : 7 And again, it is meet that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., should have a house built, in which to live and translate.



Food and raiment too and whatever else he needs !

D&C 43:13 And again, I say unto you, that if ye desire the mysteries of the kingdom, provide for him food and raiment, and whatsoever thing he needeth to accomplish the work wherewith I have commanded him;



A boarding house (some kind of hotel?) I think he got a liquor license for this enterprise

D&C 124:56 And now I say unto you, as pertaining to my boarding ahouse which I have commanded you to build for the boarding of strangers, let it be built unto my name, and let my name be named upon it, and let my servant Joseph and his house have place therein, from generation to generation.



And an endless supply of women.

D&C132:62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.



Just in case anyone else tried to get in on the freeloading action with seer stone revelations, everyone else's seer stone and revelations are no good.

D&C 28:11

11 And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him;



No need for him to work either. To become a full time teacher/leader/prophet paid up by members!

D&C 24: 9 And in temporal labors thou shalt not have strength, for this is not thy calling. Attend to thy calling and thou shalt have wherewith to magnify thine office, and to expound all scriptures, and continue in laying on of the hands and confirming the churches.




And he forgot he already condemned religious leaders who didn't labor with their own hands when he wrote his Book of Mormon tripe.

Mosiah 27 (Verse 5 in particular)

3 And there was a strict command throughout all the churches that there should be no persecutions among them, that there should be an equality among all men;

4 That they should let no pride nor haughtiness disturb their peace; that every man should esteem his neighbor as himself, laboring with their own hands for their support.

5 Yea, and all their priests and teachers should labor with their own hands for their support, in all cases save it were in sickness, or in much want; and doing these things, they did abound in the grace of God.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2014 11:43AM by zeezrom.

Does this guy friend think Joseph *worked* for a living? Paid for his own houses/food/clothing? Used his own money to publish the BOM, start the Kirtland anti-bank, etc.?

Is he that ignorant/dishonest?

This is a good point - how did he keep a roof over his head, food in his stomach, clothes on his back if he wasn't using his Mormo-scam to pay the bills? A lot easier than digging for treasure or clearing farm land. The Smith's weren't known for their commitment to hard work, like many of those who settled frontier areas. They were always looking for the big deal, the shortcut, the easier way. Joseph found it and there wasn't all that much suffering involved.

Also Joseph Smith was not sane. You would have to be an narcissistic nut job to do what he did.

"What did Joseph Smith get out of it?"

By his own account, a lot of narcissistic ego stroking and bragging rights even to the point where he put himself on the same pedestal as Jesus:

"If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster. I shall always beat them.... I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole Church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

History of the Church, vol. 6, pp.408-409 (emphasis added).


M.P.

That's an interesting point about his sanity. He probably started with a con job but it does kind of seem like he besides losing scruples, he might have lost his sanity along the way.

Like most charismatic founders of cults, JS went after money, sex, power and fame.

Money: JS went from abject poverty to living in a mansion. He got people to hand him money because he was a "prophet".

Sex: you think polygamy was about anything other than sex?

Power: He got lots of followers. He had his own town, his own army and even wanted to run for President.

Fame: 200 years after his birth, people still know his name. They sing "praise to the man" and pretend he was the next best thing to JC himself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2014 01:47PM by axeldc.

A wife who was threatened by God if she ever disagreed with J.S.

How about power and all the cornpone poontang he could handle? That's worth risking the occasional tarring-and-feathering, wouldn't you say?

Sex, and apparently lots of it, never having to pay the price. Until, of course, he was killt daid for it.

hardy har har

but ya know, he never got out alive

but i'll bet it was tasty,

all that freshly baked pastry

to wit: i'd say ......


no man knows my pastry

Megalomaniacs love attention. The women, the followers, running for US president. That's what Horny Joe got out if it. Boner.

whatever JS didn't manage to "get out of it" wasn't for lack of trying...

Cool thing is boner....

we wouldn't trade places for love nor money would we?



wait....

Maybe for sex...

Money for nothing and chicks for free.

guess horny joe ended up in dire straights after all

doh - rimshot!

OMG - Void and Shummy - you guys are hysterical. Thanks for the laugh - literal LOL.

All the posts thus far are RIGHT on! And so was Fawn Brodie.

Joseph Smith if diagnosed today would very likely be what is called a "Successful Psychopath." See the book "Snakes in Suits" by Industrial Psychologist Paul Babiak and specialist in psychopaths & Order of Canada recipient Robert D. Hare.

Brain Science & forensic psychology is fascinating! Smith likely felt only proto-emotions and so NEEDED lots of Excitement (including sex) to feel anything. He likely courted controversy & loved risk-taking. And he also likely never felt any regrets or pangs of conscience.
(hare.org for more info)

The sAiNTS GoMarching Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


to pretoria?

oh right, zion

memory fart