Just need to talk. Feeling a bit socially isolated. Just would appreciate any feedback that says you at least read this.

I just feel so trapped, like there's no way out. Every time I escape the Mormonism/Utah thing, I get pulled back and have to deal with it. I just want to leave it past and interact with people where I'm not either demonized or rejoiced for drinking coffee. I just want to be my own person.

I got out of Utah, got my college degree, but the job market is terrible and nobody hired. So I had to move back in with my TBM parents who kicked me out before and socially and emotionally abused me. (Edit: I managed to get out of there after a couple months and back on my own. It was my first priority.) Well, my dad did, my mom just didn't understand why I couldn't "play the game."

Goddammit, I have a Master's of Engineering from an Ivy League. Valedictorian of my High School. I'm smart, charming, trustworthy, pretty wealthy family....on the outside I'm pretty much the most "blessed" guy there is. But I'm honestly miserable.

"Of much is given, much is required." Gods how that was so damaging to me. Because I look like the perfect child, and was favored by my dad (literally. Favorite child. He made no attempts to hide it. He did not have a healthy personality.) Everybody expected me to give better than possible. Impossible to be perfect, but nobody cared. I just had to be better.

Do you know how damaging that is? Probably, you're on this board. But it still haunts me. I'm not good enough. I'm NEVER good enough, because it's IMPOSSIBLE. It's so deeply engrained, and I just need to let it go. How do you let go something that deep, though? Time, I guess.


I could go on for ages on how much my dad emotionally abused me. Nobody really believes me, except those that have gotten to annoy me. But some of the things he did.... and then he had the NERVE to make me apologize to him for "breaking his heart" in a counseling session. I did it for family peace, and only apologized that his heart was broken, not that I caused it.

I want to say I hate him, but that's the worst of it. I can't. Not truly, because it's not that easy. He's not a villain, just another lost soul that's trying his hardest in his own way. He was abused by my grandfather, and by this church. But he clings to both, trying to live up to their standards like a little kid. He's so emotionally stunted because they forced him to be that way.

Of course, there ARE things I can blame him and hate him for. That I can at least take solitude in. But the world and people in it are so complex and...and there's not a straight line of good and evil. It's so hard when you can view all the complexities, I guess that's why religion and politics are so appealing to people. Let others doe the thinking, draw lines in the sand. Take a side or the other.

But no, I can still feel right and being angry at someone, even if it's not all their fault.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2014 11:19AM by dragonmystic.

dragonmystic: this is a good place to vent. I would venture to say that most of us here have found it difficult to free ourselves from the chains of Mormonism. It is a difficult task and feeling trapped is a difficult place to be. Stay strong - you are being heard and we are listening and supporting your difficult journey.

I appreciate it.

I'm just annoyed because I thought I had gotten all over this already. I just want to live my life, move on.

But I guess...no matter how hard I try. It IS a part of me. I grew up in a cult, I have to accept that, for better and for worse (mostly worse.)

Sometimes it's good to put physical and emotional distance between you and your family members. Take a break from them. Give yourself the time and space to heal.

I get the perfectionism thing. It can be very damaging. What helped me is to reflect on the fact that nature isn't perfect. I loved learning about Taoist philosophy and art, which focuses on nature. Often Taoist painters would deliberately put small mistakes into their paintings to better reflect the beautiful imperfection of nature.

I know how difficult it is to not be hired when you have a diploma that you've worked so hard for. I've been through that twice. The first time I was willing to relocate and that got me on my feet. The second time I just persisted in my job hunt (it took two years.) I made ends meet by living mostly with roommates, but also with family, and taking whatever employment that I could cobble up.

You will get through this. Life has some really tough times. But there will be smoother, more prosperous times as well.

We had a Native American rug like that. There was a deliberate flaw in it, which always drew my eye. Being an Engineer, it really bothered me.

Yeah, I know I'll get through it. Well, my logical side does. It's the emotional side I have problems with. I never quite know how to deal with that part of me.

Was it a line running from the center of the rug out to the border? It could be a small line or a big one. Was it a Navajo rug?

If so, that could be a spirit line, and it's a very important feature of the rug. It basically creates a channel so that the spirit of the rug is not trapped in its center.

It's a beautiful intentional flaw, especially once you know its purpose.

It was in the border. It had a sort of... zigguarat patter, with squares stacked on each other going up and down stairs. One of those "stairs" was seperated.

Next time you see it, look at where the pattern is separated at the border and see if that color leads to the center of the rug.

If it does, that is a spirit line.

Navajo weaving is kind of a handy analogy to what you wrote you're feeling now... Trapped, suppressed...

Make (or discover) a spirit line in yourself. Sometimes it's helpful just knowing that another culture felt/feels strongly enough about emotional and spiritual outlets that is has been incorporated into their art and spirituality for at least hundreds of years.

Having lots of engineers in my life (father, brother, and brother's friends) I get the logical/emotional tug of war. Go easy on yourself, the emotional side of things will come with time and experience. And know that there are many of us who very much appreciate our loving, responsible, and oh-so-logical engineers. :)

pffffft.

"responsible."

How long ago did you graduate? If it was in the last few years, you are one of those who are dealing with a bad job market. If you are a recent graduate, could you find an "internship" with a local firm, even if it's not for decent pay? (I may be grabbing at straws here, as I am unfamiliar with your industry.)

Hang in there. It will get better--I sure wish you could move out of your parents' home and away from that horrible atmosphere.

I graduated last year.

I was venting so I didn't mention that: I do have a job as a Civil Engineer. I'm a Mechanical Engineer. It's a really good job, to be honest, and I'm paid well.

I just am not enjoying it because it's not what I want to be doing with my life.

I know how that feels, my first job out of school sucked, they clearly picked up graduates so they could use and abuse them. Best advice I can give is attend meetups, networking events, etc. Get as many contacts as you can on LinkedIn. Try and get the company to send you to as many industry events as possible, and get to know people there.

Every job after my first came from who I knew in the industry, and the great thing is that they tend to get better going forward because you know the people you're dealing with, and like attracts like. You end up knowing a guy who knows of an opening at work for a Mechanical Engineer, who thought of you from knowing you elsewhere.

Hey buddy sorry you're going through such bullshit right now. It is possible your dad can change with time. Once he sees that you are happier since leaving the church and that it hasn't changed you into some drug addicted porn peddling pimp and sees that you are the same person at heart it could change his mind. But...you have to be that happier better person for him to see it so try not to get so bogged down in sorrow that you end up proving his point.

Good luck buddy!

Sadly, my dad can NEVER accept me, because that would mean that he would have to accept HIMSELF and his own flaws.

To accept that I'm gay, he has to accept that he is gay and can be okay with it. (he is gay, he told me.)

And so he sees everything I do wrong and only sees that. I drink, therefore I am an alcoholic, etc.

You just summed up the problem with your relationship with your father. If he is gay and can't admit it, if he has doubts and can't act on them, then it follows that, he is the broken one. He can't give you love and acceptance because he doesn't have it. He can't give what he doesn't have. He just can't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2014 12:41PM by releve.

When I was in high school back in the '70's ( Utah ) , I knew a girl who had a poster on her wall that I can't quote verbatim , but it reloaded my approach to life the instant I saw it. Basically you're not in this world to live up to someone else's standards . No one's .

Again, my logical side knows this, but my emotional side still struggles with it.

My emotional side is very stubborn.

Thank you. I'll try to let out my anger somehow. I'm not sure how, yet.

Currently, my body deals with it in my dreams. I'm always a yelling, angry mess in my dreams, which isn't very restful.


I also think that...sadly, the Star Trek Vulcans damaged me in keeping my emotions in. It's really dorky, but I looked up to those fictional characters and idolized them a bit. Looking back on it, I think that aspect of Star Trek was probably the most damaging.

Just wanted to say this helped a lot, thank you :)

Recovery for me has been like a pendulum. I work through my anger and am at peace with my world for a time, then I slide back into the anger.

Each time I swing though, the anger is not as intense. I think the pendulum will eventually stop swinging.

Anger is a survival instinct. It helps us to avoid repeating past experiences that were painful. I don't want to forget all the bad things that happened to me, lest I be forced to suffer them again. The only problem occurs when anger takes control of your actions. You can find ways to feel and show anger without losing control.

I am SO sorry you are going through all this, but you seem to have SUCH a good slant on everything that is happening. You have it figured out in your head, now it will take time for the emotional side to catch up, at least in my experience. I found that to do exactly what you are doing, facing it all very honestly and venting etc is the best way.

I wish you well, and am here to 'read' any time you need to vent!

Thank you. It really does help to just get it all out from my head.

Look at the Peace Corps. Your background makes you a great asset to such an organization. Get away, find new opportunities and when you're done you can add the Peace Corps to your resume.

Very few LDS members volunteer...

I have incredible debt, since my dad withdrew all financial support when I came out as gay to him/said I wasn't LDS (implicitly).

I literally can't afford to donate time...

Without breaching privacy or confidentiality...

...what is your monthly debt service.

There could--possibly--be real life alternative arrangements that you haven't considered yet...or resources that you don't yet know you have access to.

I have to leave now.

Will be back in two or three hours.

It's ridiculous.


My dad had always told me I could go to whatever school I wanted, and do what I wanted. One of the things I wanted to do was go to a college outside of Utah. I realized quickly, even as a TBM, that I didn't want to go to BYU. I had been smothered by the religion my entire life, and even if I wanted to still believe, I didn't want it to be mixed in with my schooling. On the other side, all the other colleges seemed to be distinctly anti-mormon or...not educationally good. (In my mind.) I just wanted to get out in the world.

So I applied everywhere. And I got accepted to 5 prestigious places. I specifically didn't look at the price tags, because I wanted my education to be based only on quality, not on money. I didn't want that to be a determining factor.

Well, I got into Cornell University, which is an Ivy League, and has probably the best Engineering program there is. So I went there.

The price tag was high, and I didn't even have a concept of how much.


But then my dad dumped me. All support, everything. Because I told him I was gay and "didn't believe in god." This isn't extrapolation, he told me this. To my face. What's more, he waited to do this until 2 months before the bill was due, because, again, I quote "if I had told you before, you would have been mad and ruined our family vacation."

Now, Cornell is expensive, if you have to pay full price. Federal Loans, grants, etc. are there to help you----if your family makes less than a certain amount.

As you may have gathered, my family is well off. Not high fancy rich, but well off. So I got none of that support. Nothing goes into those calculations about if your parents refuse to pay a dime.

So, my only option to continue my education while staying at Cornell--which, mind you, I had two months of warning and had already signed up for my classes. No time to go to a different school, no time to apply. If I didn't go back, I would be literally homeless, or worse do what my dad was probably trying to force me to do--go to BYU (he forced me to apply there before and I had gotten a full scholarship.)

That meant private loans. And those are forced by new laws to have short payment plans--max 10 years, and they can get away with high interest rates: 8-14%.

When I got out of school, I had $196,000 in student loans to pay back. And the economy collapsed and sequester hit, which hit mechanical Engineering hard--tons of these jobs are government contracted.



So. My monthly. MONTHLY school loans are about $2,000. I've already had to ask the school for a 1 year extension on my loan, cutting half of that down, and my dad felt guilty enough to pay for a tiny portion of that.


And he has rewritten his mental brain history to say that he did that because he didn't have enough money to continue paying for my education, and how he's doing me a FAVOR now.

Ouch. You have my sympathy. On the bright side, you have an excellent earning potential as an engineer. And if you are paying it off in ten years, that will *really* limit your pain.

I know this sounds aweful and not at all what you want to hear, in fact, this is exactly what I need to repeat myself tonight: Forgive him~ Forgive him. Just Forgive.

Hatred and anger make me sick, literally & physically. My family has some serious issues, you name it and it's topic for discussion in therapy. Depression, Alcoholism, Drugs, Favoritism (not the favorite child is just as difficult as being the favorite). I hate to bore you... bores me.

If I am going to have a happy existance on this earth I have to let it go and believe me, I'm just as pissed off as you are when it comes to shit my parents pulled while growing up.

Be happy with who you are and proud to be a Gay man. Ask yourself, "Who the hell cares what other people think?"
Who gives a flying F***what your dad (small letters for a small man) thinks? Stand out and make some noise in Utah.

Be happy. Just let it go and focus on what you love about your life. Hell, you sound amazing and incredibly brilliant. Too smart for your own good perhaps, but, you are needed here at this time at this moment to make a difference and maybe help someone too.

I wish you all the best and I respect your vent tonight as it has helped remind me as to what I need to do with my looney family.

Let it go...