I understand that the divorce rate rose initially because there's virtually no stigma anymore for divorce(e)s--people who definitely should have been divorced due to abuse, incompatibility, cheating, etc., finally could. But now it seems like it's almost gone in the opposite direction, with tons of people getting divorced for what seems like petty reasons. Does this mean marriage is moot at this point? Or is it a societal problem?

More and more people are choosing to be single, too. But there are also lots of people now who seem to want to get married who can't, whereas just a few decades ago it seems that it was far more readily available.

Do you see this as mostly positive, mostly negative, or just more realistic?

PS: I'm not sure about the answers to these questions myself. As a 20-something who sees tumultuous relationships all over, successful young marriages, broken marriages, TONS of people who want to remain permanently single, etc., etc., I'm just feeling a bit bewildered about the causes and effects of all this change.

Should have labeled this as O/T, though it could obviously be related to the differences between 'typical' marriages and Mormon marriages. Sorry.

I BLAME the strict rules/regulations of Mormonism, the near 100% lack of focus on ordinary Christ-like living:

(unconditional) Love, including Kindness, Honesty, Compassion/Empathy, Consideration, etc.

Actually. Christ's teachings may actually be to blame

Matthew 10 34-36

Here he is talking family, not neighbors.

Maybe failure is healthy. Maybe not sticking with something that is not working is healthy.

Maybe people who promise themselves to each other forever and ever amen don't really know what they are promising, and don't really understand how humans can change and grow at different rates and in different directions.

The problem isn't a divorce rate. What I like is the going trend to have a healthy divorce instead of an acrimonious one. You can end up friends and you can still want the best for each other.

Oh wait, we're talking about Mormons aren't we. Nevermind.

I would say in part we are a throw away culture.

When I was young if something broke, the man of the house fixed it. There were repair shops for televisions, radios, small appliances etc.

Today it is throw it away, lease it or upgrade it every other year.

Spouse getting old? Get a younger model.
Need more money? Find someone wealthier.
Having a disagreement? Walk away and find someone more to your liking.
Overwhelmed? Disappear.

Some of the people who believe most in marriage also have the highest divorce rates. A study done a few years ago by the Barna Group -- a company dedicated to researching topics relevant to evangelical Christians -- discovered that people who consider themselves conservative Protestants were more likely to be divorced, or to have been divorced, than liberal Protestants. And Mormons, who are big on bemoaning the evil world's disregard for marriage, are right at the national average. Meanwhile, Jews, Buddhists, Catholics and those with no religion have lower than average divorce rates.

One of the reasons Barna gave for higher divorce rates among conservative Protestants is a believing spouse dumping a disbelieving or insufficiently believing spouse. You know, like Mormons do. Also, a lot of people who came to Jesus because their lives were messed up were still messed up and made bad or harmful spouses.

But, of course, people who don't marry don't divorce. So divorce and disinterest in marriage in the first place are two different things.

In the not too distant past (my mother, for example), a lot of women got married only because it was how women survived. Now that it's possible for single women to get by or even flourish, women who are disinclined to marry don't.

And, yes, there are people who want to get married but can't find anyone who'll have them. Mormonism helps contribute to this problem by setting up unrealistic ideals for potential mates. Right off the bat, 98.5 percent of the people on the planet are unsuitable. And 75 percent of the remaining 1.5 percent aren't suitable enough because they're inactive.

I think it is just because it's socially acceptable to do so now. No one seems to want to put in the effort. "Oh, well, this is too hard. I'll just get another spouse."

Just my opinion, but we live in a culture that breeds unrealistic expectations of relationships and marriage but fails to prepare people to succeed at them. We expect one person -- the spouse -- to completely fulfill us, meet all our needs, be compatible with us no matter how much we change, and basically be perfect. It's even worse in the Mormon church, where church burdens are added to the already-impossible requirements and members are trained to expect cookie-cutter perfection from their spouse, whose first loyalty is to TSCC, not to the marriage.

It can be so for so many reasons.

'no longer a stigma' I am glad there isn't much of a stigma to divorce. I was divorced after 20 + years. There wasn't any abuse, but there were problems and we were miserable together. Both of us happier after divorce

'divorced for petty reasons' That is sometimes the case. But I would say more often it is that the people should have never been married in the first place. If they would have taken a hard look at it, it would not have ever happened.

Expanding further on this, Mormonism does push people into marriages quickly which can be a disaster. People find they are incompatible, but since there IS such a stigma in Mormonism, they stay together. Miserably. And when one of the spouses reaches out to the bishop in desperation, all too often the bishop pushes them to try harder. Pray, pay and obey etc.

I encourage my kids, and anyone, to be in a relationship for at least 2 years before getting married. Why rush such an important decision?

I really am pro-marriage. But it is important to get married for the right reasons. Know eachother. To REALLY know eachother it takes TIME. And it is ok to not agree on everything, but it helps to be close to agreement on the important things Financial, Sex, Family, religion (or lack there of), personal space etc.

I think it's a lot of things, but one thing I'm certain is not helping is that it's hard for young people, out of college to feel secure enough to get married. It's hard to get a decent job that will pay the student loans off and the idea that you can buy a house and settle down is nearly laughable. And how do you afford a child? Things are so different for my adult children than they were for me at the time.

This is what has been happening all over Europe for quite a while and is now happening here (and probably in Japan). The middle class has eroded too far.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2014 09:33PM by Devoted Exmo.

How many people think they are going to meet, fall madly in love with their soulmate, and live happily ever after? And then they are disillusioned when they find out their soulmate leaves his dirty plates on the table?

And how many people are lacking in relationship skills because they solve their problems with the dysfunctional methods they grew up with?

I think it largely has to do with women having become more financially independent, although they are still fairly vulnerable when they have young children.

But in years past, a lot of women put up with very bad behavior because they were so financially dependent on their husband. I don't know about the men's side of the story. Although perhaps knowing that your wife can get by on her own, the men would feel less guilty these days about breaking off a bad relationship.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2014 09:46PM by seekyr.

seekyr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> a lot of women put up with very
> bad behavior because they were so financially
> dependent on their husband.

I was just thinking that too. Women are in the workforce and don't feel as trapped in an unhappy marriage due to their financial situation.

There's also the illusion of perfection which is put out by Hollywood. It creates very unrealistic expectations, causing people to think, "This isn't how it's supposed to be. I can do better than this."

Some good friends of mine, a couple, just celebrated their 30 wedding anniversary. The kicker, though, is that it's the third marriage for both of them. It took them a while to find the right person.

I know another couple that has been together for 25 years. The kicker? They're lesbians who used to be in "traditional marriages" to men.

I know a divorced couple who still love each other. They learned the hard way they were a toxic combination when married. The kicker? It's me and my ex.

I think that there were plenty of miserable marriages back in the old days, too. But the couples back then were forced by laws, religious edicts, and custom to stay together. Nowadays they are more inclined to seek after happiness. I also agree with Devoted Exmo that today's economic climate is not conducive to either marriage or child bearing.

Read this thread and re-read your thread topic.

My marriage didn't "fail."

I'm not a "failure" because I ended the marriage.

I ended it because it became abusive. But that's not really the issue here.

I ended it for reasons that are my own and nobody else' business.

It's cute though when I hear people speculate and determine what reasons are ok for divorce and what reasons are not.

But here are three questions.

One: why is divorce considered such an instant bad thing to deam an ended marriage a "failure?"

Two: why is marriage considered such a good thing when so many people seem miserable in them?

Three: why are you so worried about other people's marriages?

1. You're right, failure is the wrong word. 'Ending' would be better than failing.
2. Never said it was a good thing--reread what I asked. Specifically said that I didn't have the answers and asked if people thought these changes were positive, negative, or neutral. 3. These are huge social changes, I'm curious about the causes and potential effects, and I'm intellectually curious? Not sure why anyone wouldn't be.

Last one was supposed to be 3. :)

It sets up a false dichotomy.

I want you to see that.

Also, your intellectual curiosity is asking for speculation?

Where are the links to psychological and sociological studies?

No. This thread is still about stigma.

I agreed that the word failure was an incorrect choice.

I have read many psychological and sociological studies on the subject. I would love more if anyone can point me to resources. The ones I've read seem to contradict one another, and no conclusions have been found, probably because there are a variety of factors that contribute to the shift in society.

For the record, most of my friends are single, divorced, or polyamorous and plan on remaining so, as do I (single, that is). Not sure why the combative tone.

I'm being very clear and direct why your choice of words is poor and offensive.

I'm happy that you've corrected yourself. But I'm also pointing out that if you read this thread - there's still a LOT of stigma attached to divorce.

I don't agree with you when you say there isn't.

I think it depends on the social circles one travels in--I was divorced several years ago (after I left the church) and haven't experienced any stigma at all. In fact, people thought it was ridiculous that I thought there would be. So that's probably my personal bias/privilege. But I live in an extremely liberal, young, progressive area.

Perhaps I should have said that there is LESS--as in, it is possible to divorce now and still get remarried, have friends, not lose your job or be a complete social pariah, etc. So people are freer to make that choice than ever before. My grandmother and mother were both abused but never could have left--now, though it's still very hard (I should know), you can, unless you are in an extremely restrictive religion/part of society.

Most people vow to remain together for life, at least. So if that doesn't happen, seems like a failure to me.

For how long did you commit?

If so, what do you attribute your failure to keep your covenants?

You possibly baptized at eight, correct?

Went through the temple possibly?

Recommitted again to the church for all eternity?

Where was your failure?

When people marry for the first time, they have no clue what they're actually getting into. Vowing to stay together for life is naive.

Many reasons. Selfishness? Hating a spouse more then they love their children?
Meanness, cruelty,violence. Immaturity. Not a match. Want something different. Think they can do better.

Marriage is a lot of hard work and compromise and adjusting expectations. At least mine is...plus neither of us think we're entitled to anything we don't work for....not quite the MO for today's young folks.

Ron Burr

What is the current data for divorce rates? Are they really failing?

Mormons who marry in the temple are at about a 6% divorce rate. Mormons with civil marriages are at about 24%, which is about the same for other christian religions. Overall in the country the divorce rate is about 53%.

Divorce rates don't include remarriage rates. Most people who divorce marry again, just to someone else.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2014 11:02PM by Stray Mutt.

When we got married in 1973, I was an inactive non-believer Mormon and my wife was a lapsed, but still beleiveing Catholic (still does as far as I know). So I guess we're an anomoly.

Ron Burr

http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/marriage/data/acs/index.html

Where do you get the 53 percent? I'm not good at interpretation of census data but this census site says about 9 percent for men.

It hasn't been that long that women were unable to divorce because they couldn't support themselves. Womens rights have made far reaching changes to our society.

Politically, we are in a time when the pendulum has swung way far toward the rights of the individual vs the rights of the society. People look at what is best for them as an individual instead of what is best for their family, community or country. It leads to a lot of short-term thinking I'm afraid.

I totally disagree with your contention that it was easier to find someone to marry in the past. That might have been true until the 70s, but not since.

That's the period I was referring to.

Families made it easier to survive. The kids taking care of parents too old to work was often the only hope for aging people. Families stayed together for survival.

Not so much any more.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2014 11:22PM by MJ.

I think it's got to the stage where people expect to get divorced before they've even got married. It's no longer getting married for life, it's just getting married until something goes wrong. Most people would probably be worried if they didn't get divorced after a couple of decades or so.

Your question implies that you believe there are too many marriages failing. How many failed marriages are too many?

Think about it- You are just a big-brained ape. And so is everyone else. All you are here for is to pass on your genetic material and that takes about 20 seconds. Everything after that is completely societal-- manmade. The evolutionary advantage your big brain gives you is the memory to remember what you had and the forethought to always be looking for something better.

So if it fails, it is because it is just like everything else around here, designed to decay and die.
This is one superiority of other thought systems like Buddhism because it teaches one to be at peace with fragility and decline because it is all part of what this seems to be.

I don't know what 'too many' would mean either. I'm skeptical of marriage as an institution to begin with. But it used to be one of the foundations of our society, and there are certainly more divorces than ever before.

It was 1982. I'd worked for N-ordstrom in the mens shoe department for a few years. I noticed that the men I worked with all had Nordstrom credit cards, and the women didn't. I applied for one, and was turned down. No reason given.

The year before that I'd bought a car. They wouldn't let me buy it unless a "man" cosigned. My father cosigned. It didn't matter that I was living on my own and financially stable.

1985-Suddenly N-ordstrom started pushing their female employees to get n-ordstrom credit cards. I applied. I had a shiny new card in no time. I never used it.

1988-I bought a brand new car. I wasn't asked to find someone with a p-enis to sign on the dotted line. In fact I walked out of a couple dealerships because they told me to come back with my husband. Why? I asked. I wasn't buying a car for him. Subaru got my money.

Sorry about the extra dashes. I was trying to figure out what the banned word was that kept me from posting. Haha, I'm pretty sure it was the P word.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2014 11:40PM by madalice.

I got my first good job in 1977. I bought a car then on my own. Within the next year or two, I got a few credit cards at JC Penney, ZCMI, etc. Never had a problem getting any credit. I got married in 1984. I had credit and my husband didn't. It was my credit that made it possible for us to buy a home. By that point, I had paid off 2 cars with no cosigner. In Utah no less.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2014 12:04AM by cl2.

The divorce rate in Utah went up, and Ann Blake Tracy speculated that it was due to the recent surge in antidepressant use. Antidepressants can mess with your memory and can cause some people to fall out of love.

Study the topic and see how radical feminism has really ruined things. Even many women don't like radical feminism.

I've read all that, but as a staunch feminist, it's pretty difficult for me to read the MRA blogs it's usually discussed on (where it quickly devolves to 'feminism is the root of all evil') without retching. Some more neutral resources might be more palatable.

If a man gets divorced, it can ruin his life, thanks to the law, which is prejudiced against men nowadays. Many, many men don't think marriage is worth it because of these laws. Don't blame the man, blame the laws.

Eh--not blaming any men, here. I was married to a woman. Remember, marriage ain't just for heteros anymore! ;)

During the fall of Rome, bachelors were taxed, because so many men were staying single. But the tax didn't help much to increase the marriage rate. Some people believe that we are living in a similar period today. They think America is falling, and that it has something to do with fewer marriages.

I think people don't commit to each other like they used to do. It's hard to make a marriage work. Both individuals have to want to make it work. If there is no desire for working together to find a way to work out problems, it won't happen. I'm not an expert in anyway on marriage and mine has not been a smooth ride, but when problems came up it took us both to find a way to a solution that was agreeable to us both. It's not easy to do this because we are both human and want it our way. You have to be willing to put aside ego and find a compromise that both can live with. If you can't do this then things can get ugly. Our society has spawned the "me generation" and this has been hard on marriage. If there is a way to change things to a "we generation" I have no idea what it is. My wife and I say all the time that we will have been married forty-six years in November, if we make it that long.

I think that as divorce has become more acceptable in the western world in general, that many young people may not see a marriage as being forever anymore.

Though not necessarily just mormon, I think a lot of people get married before they really even know themselves. They still haven't figured out who they are going to really be yet, so it's pretty hard to know what is a deal breaker and what is not yet.

A marriage takes commitment and hard work. Marriage isn't easy, but with the right person it is worth it. But people change too over time and sometimes the relationship no longer works.

I guess I kind of went around in a circle...

Because now we are free to examine the layers of assumptions that presume marriage is a good thing.

Marriage cannot stand up under scrutiny if we presume the sexes are equal in society (and they aren't).


Kathleen Waters

What about same sex marriages?

Sorry if this has already been mentioned up thread (haven't read all of the responses), but a number of years ago, I watched a documentary on IV drug use, HIV and AIDS in Iran.

One of the many interesting points of the documentary (sorry an initial google search failed to find the right documentary), was the marriage contract in what I think most would agree is a religiously restrictive/militant country. People could sign marriage contracts through their clerics that ran for differing amounts of time. One of the couples featured (the man was HIV positive) signed just a 6 month contract.

Apparently in Iran, you can basically sign up for short periods and if you enjoy the arrangement, sign a new contract once the old one is finished.

In a sense, it's a far more modern idea. The couples also sign the terms relating to the end of the contract. In general, no monetary settlements apply when it comes to short contracts with no children involved. Interesting right?

It is my understanding that Islam (particularly in Islamic countries) allows for short-term marriages, which often means overnight, or for a few days, or a week or two, etc.

Sometimes it is so that commercial sex is legal (whether or not that "commercial sex" is approved by, or wanted by, the female, who may well be what we would consider distinctly underage)...other times it facilitates travel and lodging or restaurant arrangements, or simply being a woman being in a car together with a man who is not a male relative...and at still other times (like in the more restrictive countries such as Saudi Arabia) it keeps the woman un-lashed and un-executed after sex...and the man out of prison and UN-lashed after sex as well (for situations involving college students, widows and widowers, etc.).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2014 12:39AM by tevai.

All of that could be very true tevai. I am only going on what I saw in this particular documentary. The couple in question were well and truly adults, they were making an informed decision and seemed in love (although they weren't PDA lovey dovey, which seems to be apropos given the culture).

Also a cleric was most definitely involved as they waved a dowry and he had to give her a small token eg., flowers at the end of the contract.

I don't doubt that the system could be used for abuses etc.. It did seem to be a loophole around religious views on pre-marital sex. There seemed to be little to no stigma around deciding to part ways permanently after the contract was over though.

I should've added that the idea of a short marriage contract seemed to me, unusual. I had, at that time, never considered that it would be so, based on preconceived notions (based on no fact mind you) of what I thought life and marriage must be like in an Islamic country like Iran.

The documentary didn't make me come away with, "Gee aren't they so progressive." It showed a complex society with a terrible drug/HIV/AIDS problem that was largely being ignored. But the marriage contract issue was something that stood out.

I think in a lot of Western societies we still think of marriage as a life thing. It's very black and white, so seeing something that in some ways seems more practical (when it's not being abused) is interesting.

I wasn't trying to correct you, sassypants!!!

Your post prompted me to remember some research I did awhile back for a project I was working on back then. At the time, these kinds of short-term marriages struck me as a much-needed practical way for people in some restrictive ethnic cultures and countries to be able to live their lives with at least a smidgen of "normality."

Kind of off-the-subject, but not really: there was a news story last week (I think) about a woman in Saudi Arabia whose child needed emergency hospital care, but her husband wasn't home. She put her child in the family car and began driving to the hospital...until she was pulled over for driving. (Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.) She explained that she needed to get her child to the hospital for emergency care, but that wasn't an excuse so far as the Saudi police were concerned. I don't know what happened to her, or to her child, but all the police were concerned with was that she was breaking the law by driving on public streets--they didn't care about her child at all. When you're living under these kinds of draconian legal constraints, it's nice to know that there are legal work-arounds for at least some things, at least some of the time.

I can also see many real advantages for some people to legal marriages which are entered into for what both people realize is intended to be short term periods. Essentially, that is what we Americans often do with first marriages in particular--so much so, we often call them "starter" or "learner" marriages. :)

:-D. tevai, me and my bloody err on the side of caution internet eyes. Plus, you did bring up some things I hadn't though of regarding possible abuses. That scares me a little.

However, agreed regarding short term marriage contracts. I think they'd essentially do away with stigma. I know a lot of divorced people who wouldn't have minded a different cultural/legal approach. :-)

In Iran one can get a "temporary marriage" if you pay a few bucks to a judge (they are all Muslim clergymen), but many men don't bother, since there are areas where prostitution is open and basically ignored by local authorities. Really, if the police find you in a car with a woman you're not related to, by marriage or blood, and if the woman has no husband, it is winked at and ignored. But, if the woman has a husband, that is SERIOUS and she can be jailed or even killed for that. Prostitution is all over Iran, and the local judges know it, and it is ignored as long as the woman is not married. The Johns can be married, but if a married woman works as a prostitute then WATCH OUT she can be killed. Usually, she is jailed and her relatives pay the judge a bribe and he lets her out. Common thing in Iran. Yes, I have friends who live in Iran or grew up there. There are books about life in Iran and I've read them.

Single attractive women in Iran after the age of 19 are expected to become the mistress of a wealthy married man, and this is winked at, again, as long as the woman is not married. There is no punishment for the men who commit adultery, and none for single women or divorced women, but if a woman is caught as a prostitute and she is still married.....she can get death if her family can't pa the judge (who is a Muslim mullah...clergyman).

I have now been divorced twice. If you asked me 10 years ago I would have told you there was not a chance I would end up divorced. My wife of nearly 40 years dumped me for becoming a non believer 7 years ago and then I too quickly remarried into a relationship that really had no chance from the beginning. I am now a confirmed single for the few years I have left.

When things get rough in marriage these days it us just too easy to say why should I stay in this marriage and bail out.

Before we go blaming the antidepressants, feminists, the decline of moral fiber like so much excrement down the old porcelain poopshoot, or these damned crazy kids today with their new ideas, the rap or rock music and ther pants down around their ankles for the rise in divorce rates, maybe we should take a moment to pause and contemplate.

Is the divorce rate in our country a sign of moral decay, or was the old system of partnership kind of sexist, unnatural and unnecessarily exclusive?

A marriage isn't a battery; it's "success rate" shouldn't be measured by longevity, but rather by the quality of the lives and relationships within the partnership and subsequent family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2014 12:43AM by En Sabah Nur.

En Sabah Nur Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is the divorce rate in our country a sign of moral
> decay, or was the old system of partnership kind
> of sexist, unnatural and unnecessarily exclusive?
>
> A marriage isn't a battery; it's "success rate"
> shouldn't be measured by longevity, but rather by
> the quality of the lives and relationships within
> the partnership and subsequent family.

A bunch of thumbs up!!

Thanks, En Sabah Nur!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2014 12:45AM by tevai.

It hasn't been easy but we have been married 54 years.

I sure hope our marriage lasts for a while.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It hasn't been easy but we have been married 54
> years.
>
> I sure hope our marriage lasts for a while.

I am very happy for both of you!!!

:)

Me thinks that humans are just evolved animals trying to live on a planet that will never be perfect. Humans go through so many physical and mental changes on top of trying to live through impossible financial difficulties. We just need to give us all a break. Marriage is tough and if doesn't work out, it is ok.

I'm interested in the number of people who are saying that marriage is sexist--I guess I don't see it that way as most people in my social circles are gay, so I don't inherently view 'marriage' as 'man and woman' at all--but they seem to be getting divorced at virtually the same rates. That adds an interesting element to this whole conversation.