An organization that demands the kinds of sacrifices the LDS church does can NOT survive on strictly cultural relativism and theological liberalism without losing significant revenues!

Good will and cultural identity will never be enough. Why sacrifice 10%, 2 years, 3 hours a week, and get told what to do all your life for what amounts to a feel good club? Especially one that doesn't feel good.

Most people only follow along with all the demands because they are told they HAVE TO from a young age.

The Givens, if they play their cards right, might be sounding the death knell of the organization they claim to love.

We are about to join the Community of Christ.

Community of Christ? Really! What are your reasons for moving in that specific direction?

The Givens dropped like a sack of potatoes in my estimation with their most recent work published by Deseret Book.

They went from enlightened members to sophisticated apologists. Now even their voices, which I used to find so appealing, sound so fraudulent.

FAIR/FARMS is out. Fairy tails from the Givens are in. Don't be fooled. The crap they throw out doesn't fly in the average ward with the average priesthood leaders.

Sorry, I didn't mean me personally as much as the direction the Givens are taking the LDS church.

Which would be fine with me.

I understood what you meant.

I know the Givens (although not well) and had held them in high esteem for making mormonism work for them. However, after the latest interviews, my respect for them fell down quite a few notches.

I don't understand them. It seems they're true believers, yet they acknowledge there's a mountain of evidence as to why the church isn't true and they understand it's a problem for many but stay in anyway because the religion is good for you, oh and if you have doubts or questions you're not thinking about it the right way or asking the right questions. But believe anyway! It's a good way to raise your family.


Yep, they're just church sponsered apologists now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2014 08:52PM by twistedsister.

A thought just popped into my head... These are the type of members that drink coffee and tea. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, I do it, but you just don't expect TBMs to do it.

If the can do the mental twists and turns they outline to justify their continued belief you can bet they are Starbucks card carrying members.

I'd love to hear them pontificate on the Word of Wisdom like they do other topics.

Yeah I'm not so sure. They still believe the temple is the gateway to heaven, and we all know you have to obey the wow to get into the club.

I guess you could argue that it doesn't specifically say coffee and tea in the wow...

The LDS church is just using the Givenses to play its favorite game: good cop, bad cop.

The Givenes are the good cops with their understanding and "feel good" brand of apologetics, trying to convince doubters that they can remain members of the LDS church on their own terms. But, pick up any current church magazine or listen to any recent broadcast and watch the bad cop at work. It's heavy-handed business as usual with topics such as tithing, obedience and temple work with a heavy dose of eternal consequences mixed in.

I don't think the church really has any intention of changing or implementing the Givenes school of thought. It's just using the Givenes to get people to think it's changing. Whatever works to get members to stay.

Yup, this. Let's just make things seem a little nicer while not changing anything.

Exactly.

There are two things I like about the Church: it's face.

It seems to me the Givens are trying to say that nothing at all matters except the aesthetics of their beliefs.

Really?

As if Mormonism had any beauty or Grace and its clumsy hodgepodge of various ideas from various sources.

A total stew of inane ideas and low class administrators.

That's the beauty the Givens think we should be overawed by? They never read anything just a little better or more elegant than Mormonism?

I think you're right, though, because TSSC demands far too much for a Givenses' approach.

outsider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you're right, though, because TSSC demands
> far too much for a Givenses' approach.


Their approach will increase the cog dis of members seeking a place in TSCC where they can decide how and when they want to participate.

These members will listen and have hope that it's possible but then return to their wards to be hit in the face with the cold reality that TSCC has no place for those who doubt, who are unwilling to give unquestioning obedience, who don't assimilate.

Their approach could possible drive more people from TSCC

In my opinion, the Givens' brand of apologetics is intellectually dishonest. They seem like a nice couple but I have a feeling they and the Morg will be at a standoff soon...book deal aside. The Morg is a self interested Corp all about the bottom line...which means tithe payers. The Givens new age Mormonism doesn't bring in the dough, you need strict TBM's for that. I love watching this from the outside though:)

"Good will and cultural identity will never be enough. Why sacrifice 10%, 2 years, 3 hours a week, and get told what to do all your life for what amounts to a feel good club? Especially one that doesn't feel good."

I agree. Even if most members that learn the truth decide to stay as "cultural mormons", they still stop paying tithing, stop attending the temple, stop accepting callings that involve indocrinating others, etc... The church can't survive like that.

I despise their truithiness approach to the church. It makes them look like they have zero integrity and care only for themselves and their careers.

Dishonesty is inherent in any LDS apologetics.
You can't make a case for it and be honest, and Givens is no different.

For example:

http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/2013/06/terryl-givens-is-misrepresenting-bh.html

The fundamental issue with their approach to 'faith & belief at all costs' is that their arguments could just as easily convince someone of any other faith to stick with their own religion and NOT join the church.

Additional important information on this matter:

http://www.latimes.com/includes/projects/hollywood/portraits/barry_manilow.jpg


http://templeandobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Terryl-Givens.jpg

Haha!! Yep!

I got angry listening to the John Dehlin interview of the Givens. They talked about "choosing" to believe. You can't choose to believe. You just automatically believe, or automatically disbelieve. This can change over time as you learn more information and have more experiences. But it seemed very dishonest for them to choose to believe in something that to the best of their knowledge was untrue.

"Mormons just believe!"

Why?

Nice post. I agree completely.

The main reason people allow themselves to be subject to all the crazy requirements of the LDS Church is because they think that it's true.

If I'm just looking for a nice community (religious or otherwise), I can find that elsewhere without all the baggage--3 hour Sunday meetings, mandatory 10% tithing, invasive none of your business interviews, two-year unpaid full-time missions, all that BS in "for the strength of the youth," and mind numbing general conferences.

If it's not true, I'm not willing to put up with all that. And many others are not going to either.

They should run away from apologetics entirely by simply changing the conversation. Don't address the historical concerns, just start talking about your new and fun programs. Those that stay do so for emotional reasons anyway, so just make people happy.

That could go a long way for the church. If they gave up the control and morphed into the feel happy, go lucky, jesus saves, mandatory 10% knocked down to give what you can kind of path...the church might actually grow. They need to have fun activities but they would have to give up there exclusive claims and knock down the BOM to the level of it has feel good passages but not historical.

Somebody else said it...Community of Christ welcomes more people but the current path keeps the bills paid for all that real estate. So long as TBM keep teaching their children to know only the LDS faith doctrines...well there will be bodies and money up for grabs.

The Givens' seem to be filling Hugh Nibley's shoes, in the sense that they are now the semi-official "go to" source for tough questions, that are "answered" in a manner that appears comprehensive, academic, sophisiticated, etc.

They are well suited for this role as they do not work for the church, have had a measure of secular academic success and have a kind manner about them.They have the gender issues covered, too.

If they go too far off the reservation (so to speak) they can simply not be called on by the church any longer. Neat and clean.

I believe that this sort of role was something that might have been aspired to by a certain employee recently let go by the Maxwell Institute....but tbms are cautioned not to seek after callings, right? :-))