Like most BIC mormons I was taught from a young age that our leaders were inspired. Bishops received revelation for the ward, Stake Presidents for the Stake, etc.

I think the first time I realized what a crock that was, was when I was a teenager listening to the Bishop warn about the evils of violating the dress standards, hair length, dating within our own race, etc. My BS meter went off. That was just the first of innumerable times advice from a leader proved to be nonsense in my life.

What about your experiences with leaders knowing next to nothing but claiming inspiration?

I was a child about to be baptized. I knew the bishop would know all of my dirty secrets because I was told what the word "discernment" meant.

I realized then that he was not inspired. I just thought that God would know what was in my heart and that I wanted to be free from these peccadilloes which I thought were huge offenses against Him.

deal breaker. It sure took me a long time to figure it out, though.

I was taught that my leaders knew better than I did. So when faced with my gay boyfriend, I went to the bishop, the SP, the lds therapist, BKP, a friend who was a bishop. Deep in my gut I knew what they were telling me couldn't be right, but they knew better, didn't they? I even questioned it in a secret journal I kept. Not only did they not have answers to the gay issues, they had the WRONG answers. BUT I trusted them. I do know that part of the reason we married was to get them OUT OF OUR LIVES so we could figure it out on our own. I have never been so messed up emotionally, mentally, psychologically, spiritually than I was during those days.

I've reported it all before. Big shocker was the letter I received from Packer and it was from Packer. He never answered my questions. He just chastised me for thinking I had the right to ask someone of his importance to answer my questions. He evaded the question. Most horrible letter I ever received, so I burned it just before I got married. Only a few people ever saw it. I struggled with that letter for years.

In the end, it was all these experiences that got me out of the church.

Thing is, when I tell mormons now about what advice I got from mormon leaders, they all say, "You should have known they were wrong and followed your own instincts." They all dismiss that we are supposed to listen to our leaders. They also say my bishop was misinformed, that this is not what the leaders would have told him to do. Well, yes, it was. Boyd did get in contact with my bishop and sent him a story about a gay who had "made it." I don't know what else he sent him. The advice I was given came straight from the top and even after 30 years--they still give the same advice. I'll again say that nonsequiter on this board has received this advice from several leaders just recently, to marry.

Not a real leader, but my seminary teacher (I guess it was a "calling") started talking about Kolob and I told him it was BS...and he got really upset...and I walked out of seminary.

Ron Burr

When my cross dressing husband and I were being counseled by the Bishop, he gave my husband a two page 'guide' on how to repent of being homosexual.

He said the same principles applied.

My husband was straight, but weird.

So stupid to get a two page typed guide with the word homosexual and same sex attraction crossed out.

Same size fits all in the Moron Church.

The guide was as helpful as the "little factory" pamphlet!
Only good for lining bird cages and cat litter boxes.

This is soo sad: My non-mormon therapist had to tell me ( i was in my late 20s) that bishops don't speak for god. I tried to tell her that that may be true in other churches but the mormon church was different. She just looked at me until i finally had to agree with her.

The really sad part is that it still took around 10 more years to get out!

But i used it on the leaders: when one leader told me i was not spiritual enuf to ( or had a good enuf testimony, b/c she found out that i was struggling), then another leader couldn't tell me that a calling to relief society teacher was inspired from god. Since i hadn't changed in the intervening months, how could god change his mind about my worthiness??

Gordon B Hinckley had an interview with Larry King and I watched it on tv and Gordon B Hinckley was lying let me see if I can find that video online.

I never doubted one single leader ever until I read Miracle of Forgiveness and not only did I doubt, I knew Spencer W. Kimball was poisonous and the church was all a lie and within minutes I no longer considered myself Mormon. I sometimes wonder if I had the fastest decontamination in history.

That was a crazy book, a possibly well-intended book that went really, really bad. Once you got Kimball going, he just went deeper and deeper.

I was literally afraid of that book and refused to open it for years. I wish now that I had never accepted "repentance" and "forgiveness" as ways to intimidate me and force me to conform.

Repentance and forgiveness. They sound so benign don't they? I like the way you frame them as control devices.

17 and firm in my position that I was witnessing the least Christ-like action anyone could ever initiate. Intelligent and spiritual men and women allowed one man to commit the most hideous act because he was a stake president.

I'll never forget that douche bag.

He used to sit up on the stand and just stare at everyone with his hand on the side of his face like he was passing judgement on the entire chapel.

I remember that when the ward leader and the sp interviewed me for my PB I was nervous because you know they might find my testimony or worthiness lacking. I then believed in their authority and "discernment".

But I started to doubt when I saw how pretty horrible dickheads went to temple (people that were in no way honest or showed any empathy etc.). I thought it was strange they got TRs just like that. I guess I had taken the temple thingy way too seriously. I probably could have gone too but I thought I'd have to become a better person first...

I distinctly remember how I started thinking all the authority & discernment stuff was just utter BS when a bishop admonished the parents of young boys to buy them a suit "because they can't administer the sacrament without it".

The same bishop once invited out of the blue his best buddy up in front, hugged him and told the members that this man is pure blah blah and follow his example.

Oh really I thought. The said buddy was nothing exceptional that I'd seen.

It was downhill and fast, from then on.

I was on my mission when my mission president got it into his head that there are tie knots associated with the Melchizedek Priesthood and there are tie knots associated with the Aaronic Priesthood. The MP called the double-windsor or windsor knot that we missionaries liked to tie a knot of the Aaronic Priesthood. We were commanded to tie our ties using the overhand, or tornado, knot. We got in trouble for being disobedient if we tied our ties using any other knot.

As you can imagine, this caused a huge divide in the mission. Half of the missionaries had their faith shaken and were confused about how to trust the mission president now that we was teaching obviously false doctrine. The other half of the mission stayed fiercely loyal to the mission president and enforced the tie rule at all times.

So yeah. You can thank that for being the catalyst that caused me to seriously question the church.

Holy fuck that is one for the books. For what it's worth, I believe the double windsor is tough to tie, so only higher priesthood offices should use it.

Oh Geez...well, there was the whole you can only take sacrament with your right hand.

I made a teacher real mad when I told him God sinned if he knocked up Mary.

And when I saw the temple movie I told my temple prep teacher the events depicted in the film never happened. She was convicted the damn film was a true story. I was vindicated when I eventually asked the mission pres who called it a "parable."

Back in the 70's when they decided to allow blacks to hold the priesthood and explained that the only reason they didn't do it before was that society wasn't READY. I remember feeling very uncomfortable with that explanation. If that were the case, why weren't we the first church to make the change instead of one of the last? WEll, maybe those other churches gave blacks equal rights BEFORE everyone was ready.

When I saw his lips were moving.

The first time that I really realized a leader was clearly wrong was when Elder Kikuchi, the area 70, gave a talk to us in the Fukuoka Japan mission in 1982. He was all about numbers. It was just so completely wrong.

They fired him, well kicked him to a desk job in COB, and his replacement came over a few months later and talked about the huge problem with completely inactive members.

After I got home, I dropped out of attending but went back at one point because I had a TBM girlfriend. I had an interview with the BP at the student branch and it just showed how clueless they were. I haven't been back.

Elder Kikuchi was in the same mission as me, aboout 1970 (he came down a year or so after I did) and he was just scary. So dedicated and so severe and serious.

I never worked with him but knew guys who did. Not a really easy guy to have as a companion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2014 12:46AM by memikeyounot.

Kikuchi was over the Tacoma Washington Mission in the early 90's. I never mocked a Japenese voice until hearing him. He was aweful and told us it was our sins and unworthiness that were preventing us from baptizing over 200/month. I Honestly can't believe the Morg made him a GA.

I think making Kikuchi a GA back in the late 70s was part of the push that was going on in Japan. They thought Japan was going to take off like the baptism stories we were hearing from South America. If Japan were to take off, I think Kikuchi could see himself as one of the big 15 (just my conjecture).

I guess they figured out what a nut job he was and busted him back to the COB.

I remember a GA (Komatsu?) coming to Japan and predicting (prophesying) how many more temples and missions Japan would have in the next 20 years. Japan did ultimately have quite a few more missions, but now they are back to where they were almost 40 years ago. Same number of missions as 40 years ago, zero growth, 90% of converts inactive and hiding from the Morg.

Muddy - were you a Cutler/Henderson soldier?

Was serving my mission and watched the AP's throw darts at a map to decide where to assign Elders and Sisters.

Yes, I do remember thinking "inspiration" of mission transfers, companionships, etc. was complete bs. It was obviously politics and "in crowd" favoritism.

After checking for foreign languages and medication information, this is exactly how the BIG 15 make missionary assignments.

I wish I had the same thoughts of "this is BS" as everyone else did. I left the church out of my own reasoning about the sprit=emotion and nothing to do with anything leaders said. Makes me feel like the most gullible fool ever, but I know I can't be too hard on myself, I was brainwashed from birth and didn't have any real influences other than those in the church.

If you left the church after realizing that emotion does not equal spirit you are not gullible. I am impressed.

Thank you for saying that. :)

I was sitting in the bishops office. I was 12. He was going on and on about how lucky I was to have the parents I did, and how incredibly wonderful they were.

As long as I lived with my parents, I lived in fear. Humiliation and beatings were a daily event with me and my siblings. I remember thinking that bishop wouldn't think they were so wonderful if he was one of their kids. It was obvious he'd been conned by them. They treated everyone at church wonderful. There wasn't enough they could do for everyone. At home their true colors came out.

I'm sorry you experienced this in your life. Your parents are part of the the fraud that is Mormonism, and many other religions, that teach that righteousness alone brings blessings.

The first inkling was when I was a young lad (7 or 8) and a new bishop was called. The guy was a was a little shady in his dealings with his fellow man. The adults talked about the scams constantly. I later worked for the guy and you had to watch him or you didn't get paid. The real ice breaker for me came when I realized that the stories that Paul Dunn was spouting didn't add up. But I have to had it to old Paul, he had great stories.

When I was a teenager, the bishop's son was obsessed with me in a really creepy way. He'd follow me everywhere, show up at my house randomly, and said a lot of inappropriate things. It really scared me, and I started to dread church because of him. He also had a really violent reputation.

I complained multiple times, and so did my parents. But the bishop and his leaders laughed it off, chalking it up to a crush. It wasn't until the kid put his hands around my neck and "jokingly" tried to strangle me (he squeezed so hard I almost passed out), that anything was done. The YM president later apologized, saying he felt he couldn't do anything because it was the bishop's kid. I never trusted that bishop, or most of the youth leaders again.

It was while on a mission. I was sent to So. Cal on a Spanish speaking mission. After I had been out about 6 months, I realized that the standard, memorized discussions that lead the contact to the correct answer were not working with the latin culture. Also, the mission rules were counter-productive to working with this culture.

If I could see this, why didn't the 12 understand that cookie cutter discussions didn't work with all cultures? The district I was in was comprised of all spanish speaking elders, and we did a lot of improvising, broke many mission rules, and had much success. Some of what we did would have resulted in some severe reprimands had the AP's or MP found out. Some of what we did was with their knowledge and the MP actually encouraged us in some respects. He just didn't know everything.

It was during this time that I realized the 12 and FP probably weren't all that inspired, but I didn't put it all together and bail out until many years later.

When I was 16. In my interview to go from Teacher to Priest, with the Bishop determining my "worthiness."
I had a (mormon) girlfriend. While we'd done nothing worse than "light" petting, we'd spend hours and hours kissing, tongues going crazy.
This particular Bish was convinced that French kissing was the first in a very short series of steps to full-on sexual intercourse, and so was an evil practice.

So he asks me flat-out, have I been French kissing anyone?
Nope, I lied.
I got ten minutes of congratulating me on my holiness, how I was such a great example to the other young men, etc. etc. etc. He didn't have a clue that I'd flat-out lied to him.

That's when I realized they weren't "inspired" at all. And that there wasn't any "inspiration" -- just our own emotions and ideas and biases.

One of the things that I kept going back to in my mind as a TBM was that all of these really intelligent, smart people who I respect believe it.

Now, as part of realizing my own worth (which I never did before) I realize I'm just as intelligent if not moreso than those people I respected so much.

That may not sound that big of a deal, but for me that's HUGE.

At the risk of being seen as commenting on everything you say, I will add this . . .

I come from a family where most everyone has their doctorate or something and are considered highly intelligent and educated. Which of course begs the question, "How can these people be so easily duped by the Mormon church so obviously full of holes?"

I came to the conclusion that while we would assume that a willingness to acknowledge and seek truth should go hand in hand with intelligence and education, they actually are very separate things and you can have one without the other.

A combination of street smarts and trusting your own honest thoughts--knowing you could be wron--is perhaps the highest intelligence of all.

When I was forced to lie to my SP in order to go on a mission. He forced me to confess to more masturbation than I actually confessed to, thinking, I suppose, that everyone lies. I didn't at first. But finally gave in and confessed to what he thought was the "proper" amount.

It's all good though, I've made up for it in the following decades. ;-)

From the get go! I had only been a member for a few months. I attended a meeting and I realized that I saw something that later proved my instincts were correct. Something was not right about what I saw. The stake pres was having an affair. That was a biggy. I sensed it, but didn't know exactly what I was seeing until some months later.
His wife refused to support his rebaptism also. It was a real mess.

I realized that some of the men were honest, doing the best they knew how and did not over step their bounds. But some were not so willing to admit anything.

I caught people lying, called them on it and finally got recognition that I was not making stuff up.

It's a church, people. It's the same stuff everywhere: school, work, athletics, and on and on. It's humans being human. Just the faces change. All the same personalities and general behaviors but done in different clothes!