A couple things recently have given me cause to think tithing or investment revenue are down.

1. Missionaries in positions where they used to have paid employees.

2. Limiting and forcing members to go to digital media for manuals add they are cutting down on printing materials significantly.

3. While in Salt Lake hearing that there were significant layoffs about to occur in the MARKETING department.

I did tell the person who told me this that "the church didn't need employees when they could just call service missionaries"

Any other signs you have seen lately?

I think the fact that they've really doubled down on tithing lately is a sign. Constant conference talks about tithing, and constant Ensign articles advising members to pay even if they can't afford it. In one recent Ensign (I forget which month, but there were multiple threads about it here at the time) there were no less than FOUR different articles about tithing.

To me, that reeks of the desperation of an organization in financial trouble. I know they own real estate and everything, but I strongly suspect that they have serious concerns about cash flow.

But I feel there there is consistent pressure to pay tithing. That isn't new.

It was always there, sure. But it used to be an occasional lesson, an occasional talk, an occasional article. I don't remember it ever being the constant, unrelenting focus that it is now.

Also, there is much more of a focus now on always having a current temple recommend, which obviously requires a full tithing. When I was growing up, and even a couple of decades ago, people got a temple recommend if they had a reason to go to the temple. Few people kept a current one all the time. Now it's almost mandatory to keep your temple recommend current at all times. Again, I see that as an increased focus on tithing.

Maybe your memories and experiences are different from mine, but mine are what I have to draw conclusions from. I'm just telling it the way I see it. And my observation is that the insistence on members paying a full tithing has definitely increased over the last decade or so. I find that significant, which is why I mentioned it.

No it was not occasional. it was always primary for at least 50 years

That wasn't my experience. Maybe we belonged to different churches.

the curriculum will have at least one lesson on tithing/year. Generally that's sunday school and priesthood, so 1-2 for most people.

Temple recommend q's, so another one, every 2 years. tithing settlement every year.

Assuming at least one sacrament talk/year.

I'm my experience there is generally one by the bishop on tithing and fast offerings every year.

Add in a general conference talk or two throughout the year and a possibly a stake conference talk.

It's pretty safe to say you should average every 2 months.

they are not hurting.
They are just pissed that their profit margin is not as high as it used to be.

I'd put my bet on this being the case.

This.

I hope they are. A lot of their real estate is a liability requiring lots of expensive upkeep. Churches and temples only earn money through enticing people to tithe.

Non-ecclesiastical real estate they own took a dive in value with the recession, and money-making businesses took a hit in profits. It's known that they were deep in the stock market too, and probably lost bushels of money there.

Now with many educated and reflective members bailing and the fact that they are mainly attracting the poor and needy as new members, things could be heading down the flusher. Good.

I think that the recession was a big wake-up call for the Mormon church. "Every member a janitor" was a product of the recession. So was replacing paid jobs with labor performed for free by missionaries. Yet I don't think that the church was ever in serious financial trouble. Revenues were down, however, and that had the leaders worried.

We'll know that the church is in serious trouble if the pace of new temple announcements slows. Also look for sharp tuition increases at BYU and a slowdown on real estate acquisition and development projects. An increasing pace of ward closures and consolidations would be yet another sign.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2014 07:22PM by summer.

Actually, temple-building is lagging planned temple announcements compared to the Hinkley years. Areas outside the morg have seen dwindling attendance and some consolidations too.

With the morg's money books a secret from both the public and the members, we can only guess...

I can only wish the church were in real financial trouble, but without evidence.......

There must be at least 10 to 30 billion under management somewhere. I have no idea of how much the for profit side is making.

I heard from a real estate agent that the bastards were buying real estate right and left during the "recession"--not only do they screw widows taking their tithing, when hard times hit they buy their farms for pennies on the dollar. They own 2% of the entire state of Florida! And are cleaning house in Idaho. I know of a senior couple who were called on a mission to do title searches!!

No one knows how deep it goes or who's at the top. Its my uneducated guess that there is a group of family corporations going back to the very early days and some hit-men that are raking it in and hunkering down. Hiding the dough before it all starts sliding into obscurity. There is no real hope of fixing or saving, just get it now as fast and dirty as we can.

I was actually thinking about starting another thread on a related topic.

I have an aunt that I'm not particularly close to - extremely TBM. She's ok, it's just that we were a long ways apart and my dad and her were never very close and never really inclined to get together over the years.

Anyhow, she lost her husband about a year ago and decided to go on a church service mission. She now works at the PCC (Polynesian Cultural Center). She sends emails out every week talking about how wonderful things are...the typical "this is God's work" kind of crap.

But it has always seemed odd to me how someone is paying their own way to "serve" a for-profit enterprise that rakes in millions of dollars from wealthy tourists each year. I can't think of any other church where "missionary service" translates into becoming unpaid labor to help run a theme park.

Shouldn't she be digging wells in Africa or teaching English to school kids in Cambodia or something like that?

In the church news a few weeks ago they had some service job missions listings for people 18-25 in Nauvoo . It was the pageant there I think. It sounded like one has to "pay" to be in the pageant, missionary work in Nauvoo etc from the corp as well.

My guess: They are hemorrhaging IQ points more than money.

dave the atheist is probably right. I don't think they're hurting. Yes, they lay off people replacing them with mishes and not building new temples, trying to save as much as possible but it's all to invest and build their corporate empire to rule the world. That was JS's goal from the beginning, that Mormons rule the world and that democracy be replaced by theocracy, or mormon theocracy

actually they are still raking it in, but trends have them hustling to stay ahead of rising costs and stagnant income.

All multi-level marketing deals have to keep the 'down line' producing so those at the top levels maintain a high degree of conspicuous 'success' for the lower levels to see and aspire to.

It is just that simple.

I surely hope so, but I doubt it. With enough millions of TBM's to continue bleeding, it won't be looking for food stamps any time soon. JMHO

Ron Burr

I agree with Dave the Atheist's statement,

"they are not hurting.
They are just pissed that their profit margin is not as high as it used to be."

I have a REALLY hard time believing that the LDS church is hurting or "hemorrhaging" financially.

Not only is the LDS church the only church which REQUIRES its members to pay and annual of tithe of no less than 10% of their income, they have an unpaid ministry! Its a corporate cult where the members believe GOD HIMSELF runs the church. The members willingly pay into the church to make sure they gain entrance into heaven.

They also get money ON TOP OF 10% thru fast offerings, missionary funds and so forth.

We KNOW they have BILLIONS in investments.

I simply don't see how they are hurting financially.

I think its just run by a bunch of scrooges who are in dismay that they are only making 10 billion a year instead of 20 billion. They probably projected great earnings and then the recession hit and their membership growth has stalled. So they are finding ways to tighten things up a little.

Like my attorney father in law who sold one of his cars because his earnings dropped to $300k instead of the $500k a year he was used to.

Dave the Atheist and Ex-CultMember and others above are correct.

"I think its just run by a bunch of scrooges who are in dismay that they are only making 10 billion a year instead of 20 billion. They probably projected great earnings and then the recession hit and their membership growth has stalled. So they are finding ways to tighten things up a little."

They want the members to keep paying the protection money at the same time they cut the budget for things that benefit the members.

"Like my attorney father in law who sold one of his cars because his earnings dropped to $300k instead of the $500k a year he was used to."

This is the best description of what is happening financially within TSCC. The recession hit in 2008 and lasted too long. Subsequently, tithing revenues fell when projects such as City Creek were requiring liquid cash.

So like a smart father in law, who's still in the top 1% of wage earners in the world, they simply cut back on expenditures. Janitorial workers were displaced by members. Paid workers in the COB were replaced by "service" missionaries. Ward budgets were cut and fast offerings now receive stake level scrutinization to make sure bishops are not being too generous.

This is thus and amen.

The only thing I know for sure:

They aren't getting any of MY money.
They also aren't getting any of my children or grand childrens money.

I've broken the chain of money giving to the mormon church.

Amen to that!

During the past 10-11 years, LD$ Inc. has spent:

- $3B on City Creek: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705341784/Salt-Lake-City-high-rise-is-ready-for-occupancy-on-Main.html?pg=all

- $565M on "nearly 383,000 acres [of timber and ranchland] in northwest Florida": http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/corporate/st-joe-co-selling-382834-acres-in-northwest-florida/2151305

- $120M on "a 32-story apartment tower...in Philadelphia": http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/blog/real-estate/2014/02/mormon-church-to-build-32-story.html

Also, LD$ Inc.'s insurance company, Beneficial Life, experienced "impairments of $600 million" due to "the meltdown in the financial markets": http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6836506

Meanwhile, people have been leaving the "true" corporation of Je$u$ Chri$t "in droves": http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/30/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120130

The Mormon Church has always marketed itself as an organization led by "prophets, seers, and revelators." The so-called "seers" at the helm of LD$ Inc. certainly haven't been doing their job in terms of predicting the future and protecting the "true" church accordingly!

I think LDS Inc is in dire financial straits.

All tangible indications point to this, to the point they are hurting themselves and distancing membership because of it.

The ONLY thing that makes LDS Inc seem like they have a lot of money is that they project that image.

I would suggest this is a corporation that has been raped by insiders. I would also suggest this has always been the case, and the reasoning that financial records became secret is there was far too little money rather than too much.

I would also suggest that all real estate deals are probably financed through partnerships with entities that have a lot of money that need it laundered. We do not know how these deals are set up, who is involved, or where the money came from.

Anyone speculating that LDS Inc is stuffed with money should remember that Utah is home turf for mortgage, security, and insurance fraud. However, we have never heard of a major embezzlement case regarding LDS Inc.

There are very real reasons why other companies do not use the Corporation Sole business model. There are huge security leaks in the model that would be quite an attractant to con men.

Anyone who thinks LDS Inc is too big to fail needs to remember the USSR, Lehman Brothers, Enron, Global Crossing and General Motors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2014 01:17AM by deco.