This seems like a controversial question around here. Maybe there is a sliver of truth to Mormonism and we, as rational beings, should recognize that and not be so sure of ourselves. I don't disagree with this, but I also don't think it matters. It misses the point, in my opinion.

If I were to find out tomorrow that Mormonism were true, I wouldn't really care much. True, or not true, Mormonism was horrible to me. When I was a Mormon I would get sick to my stomach every Sunday because I couldn't stand another hour sitting in that building. Back then, I let guilt over everything destroy my self-worth, while at the same time I let the manipulative doctrine inflate my ego to a level that made me feel superior to everybody else. In some weird way I both loathed and adored myself and I hated every confusing second of it. As a Mormon I had very few friends and I had no idea how to approach social situations. I didn't fit in with Mormons at all and I blamed myself for not being able to be a part of the chosen people. As a Mormon I allowed myself to be pushed into a marriage that wasn't the right fit for either of us, but every time there was a failure in the marriage I would blame myself because I truly believed that God told me that I needed to marry that person.

When I left Mormonism, it was clear that the religion was false. However, if I were wrong about that, it wouldn't matter. I couldn't care less, not even for a second, whether Mormonism is true or not. If there were a God that made me who I was, but required that I lived my life like that then I would have no problem walking away from him and every part of the mystical afterlife he might promise. Leaving Mormonism was the best and healthiest decision I have ever made and I don't regret it at all. Even if Mormonism were true, that wouldn't change.

My journey isn't about proving Mormonism false because of some historical concern or inaccuracy in the doctrine. It is about walking away from the painful and hollow feeling I had in the pit of my stomach and that I felt every week I forced myself to attend those incredibly boring meetings. Anybody else feel the same?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2013 02:01PM by snb.

I think this is actually an interesting topic with a lot of subtopics for debate and thinking. It was presented yesterday by ElderX (although the communication was atrocious, the idea is interesting).

I think I agree with you. If I found out that everything in Mormonism were true tomorrow, it wouldn't matter. As for me, I would resent God. I would wonder how he could be so awful, and still think he was God. I would agree with Satan, and decide that God needed to be opposed. I would fight against someone who thinks they are a deity that can do as they wish and still think they can get undying fealty.

On the other hand, I also feel strongly that there is no possible way, not even the slimmest of shreds of possibility that the church could be true, and I also believe science and evidence to be behind me, but that is my opinion, there may be thinking individuals who disagree with good rationale.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2013 12:24PM by notnewatthisanymore.

The only way that I could know that Mormonism was true is if Christ himself appeared and embraced Thomas S Monson. If that happened I would bow down and worship and then I would weep, because it would mean that I would be spending eternity as a second class citizen. I rejoice in the fact that what I have described will never happen.

If Mormonism were true I would feel very sad. Knowing what I know now it would be horrible to think there was a God out there somewhere who sat by while He watched Joseph Smith and all the prophets since that time do the horrible things they did. If I believed that God truly wanted the men at the head of His church to be who they are now I'd be clinically depressed. If I had to accept the Mormon church as true because I knew it for a fact.....well I just cannot describe the horror I'd feel.

I said that to a bishop when I was a teenager. That got me marked more than anything else I ever did or said. I don't think any deity exists. I think all the churches are false but I don't care. I am a good person living a good life and all the dogma in the world can't change that. I feel better and am better than I ever was there.

What if the guys who flew the airplaines into to twin towers really were doing gods will?

Come on people....we can play this game all day.

Okay, but Christ said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind. And love your neighbor as yourself. On these rest all the law and the prophets." So regradless of what the 9/11 attackers thought was God's will--

He also said, "I have come that you might have life and have it abundantly." If tscc made you feel like crap, well, there's your sign.

So what about all the sincere TBMs who feel good, even great in tscc?

The end of slavery sounded great both to the slaves living in it and those who thought it was an evil that needed to be abolished. Emancipation at the end of the Civil War was brutal though. Plenty of freed slaves starved or resorted to theft to keep from starving, and still went without basic necessities. Many gladly would have gone back to the old system and lived as slaves again if they were provided for. It took a century of marginalization and torment for serious discussions of equality to start. But it was inevitable that slavery would end, and ultimately, it was right. Changes in tscc also are inevitable and right, sadly even for those who are convinced it's true.

Oh-ho, but that makes the assumption that it's the Christian god that is the right one. If the 9/11 guys were right then it's Allah that is the true god, and Christ's statements are null and void. ;)

The same jesus that flooded the earth and killed everyone?...... you can justify anything....

And round and round we go....

There is no way in hell mormonism is true, but if for this scenario somehow it turned out to be true I still would not want anything to do with it.

The god of mormonism and of Christianity for that matter, in fact the god of any religion that uses all or part of the bible is a god I want nothing to do with. That god is a mean vengeful spiteful immature god who destroys an entire world except for a select few with a flood, tells daughters to sleep with thier father so he can have a male son(Lot and his daughters) give a man super human strength all based in his long hair that when his hair is cut off he loses his strength, and the fairy tales go on and on in that book. So it wouldn't matter one bit because I refuse to worship the god of the bible/mormon god period.

I would become a zealous atheist.

I have always argued that the members better hope that it isn't true. The church is poorly run and managed, many truly nasty people get high in its leadership, and the church produces little positive change. If it is true, we'd have to set our expectations for the benefits of having the priesthood, the Holy Ghost, and modern-day revelation pretty low.

Of course, the greatest lies are always a misapplication of the truth. That is where they get their truthiness that makes them so dangerous.

I would walk away, not wanting to worship the god who considered TSCC to be his true church.

What do you mean by Mormonism being true? Define that then I might be able to answer the question being asked.

That Joseph Smith was not telling the truth and was not what or who he claimed to be is certain, to me. Joseph Smith was not a prophet. His so-called church is not true. The BOM is not true. The church based upon it is not true. It's adherents do not speak the truth when they say JS was a prophet and when they say the church is true.

Not sure how we'll (well, you) get from that state of things to Mormonism being true on any plane, chart or scale, at any point in time, so until you define what you mean by Mormonism being true, I can't answer your question.

I can't accept IF/THEN thinking here. Because that IF cannot happen, nothing that leads to IF being true is evident, and so THEN will not occur nor prove to be, under any known circumstance following your IF.

"What do you mean by Mormonism being true? Define that then I might be able to answer the question being asked."

I guess I mean that God is real and the Mormon church is something that he put together to show everybody how to live with him in the afterlife. Sorry for not going into more detail, I figured the description was fairly self-explanatory.

"I can't accept IF/THEN thinking here."

I can respect a man who refuses to engage with all hypothetical scenarios.

Can you respect this woman? Who could, in other situations and under other circumstances might lean toward reconsidering a belief or opinion, or engage in hypotheticals, but only when enough evidence both proveable and testable, or at least minimally verifiable, exists to consider such?

Under your setup, it is simply not possible for me because it asks me to ignore all facts in evidence, assume much more and ignore the rest, then hold belief in some idea I don't even understand, as well as call black, white and day, night.

When I deal with thinking about any sort of God scenario, verifiable evidence is irrelevant. This is the main reason why I remain an agnostic rather than an atheist. It seems like you can completely dismiss religion/God and that you do so in a very logical and realistic way. I can completely see why you would want verifiable evidence. But I've tried that and I can't follow those lines of thinking. God is undefinable and because of that I can't even get to the level of looking for verification either for or against the idea.

Like I said, I'm completely okay with someone who can't engage with hypotheticals. My focus isn't on the hypothetical anyways, rather, it is about why I'm not a Mormon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2013 01:36PM by snb.

What if you learned that Joe didn't really see God and Jesus, but God told him to say that he had seen them? What if God told Joe, Brigham and others to teach contradictory and false doctrine for some higher purpose that we can't understand? What if the BoM isn't a true history, but that God really did inspire the fictional book? I think this is what the OP and others were getting at. If God is really that kind of trickster @$$#0l*, they wouldn't want to live with him for eternity anyways.

You're correct, of course. There's no way that any of it is true. If an angel appeared to you today and told you that the church was true, you can be 100% confident that that angel is not from God.

So we're worshiping Loki?

I'm always puzzled by people who wish the church were true. I would hate it.

But that is so not possible.

Good news for me.

The question makes me laugh because the whole question is set up by Mormonism. "Is the church true?" What does that mean anyways?
The very fact that the question is asked... puts up a huge red flag.

If Mormonism were TRUE, it would be self-evident. Truth doesn't need to be argued because it simply exists and is plain to see. That is the illusion of Mormonism.. it isn't true... but great effort is expended in trying to put a veneer of truth on it. The mind has to weave all sorts of stories mixed with emotion to convince itself that it is true.

As I said, truth doesn't have to be defended. Truth simply exists as it is. If your are reading this... you exist... that is true.. it is readily apparent to you or else you wouldn't be reading this... that is truth.

I would react about the same way I would react if I found out the Lord of the Rings were true: Complete shock and utter puzzlement. How in the world?? That doesn't even make sense!! EVERYTHING points to it being fiction! How could it possibly be true???

My jaw would hit the floor so hard it'd cause an earthquake in China.

That would probably be followed by severe depression. Because I'd realize that there really was a supreme overlord of the universe, and he's a complete tool!

+1,000,000 I find that a very apt analogy!

Well I think the chances of the Mormon church being "true" are about the same as the Easter Bunny being "true". It's a nice, little fantasy game for children. But the time comes when we have to grow up and see the world for what it is.

When I first left TSCC in 1985, it was because I finally "woke up". It happened rather suddenly in my bishop's office. I had a startling and undeniable realization that this was all a silly game and that this man had no power over me or anyone else. I left his office and never looked back. At the time I felt that the church might be "true" for some people, but it was certainly NOT "true" for me. I realized that if it were true, then I didn't think that I could forgive a god who would manipulate and punish in that way. I was done, true or not true.

Once I got the internet and did some actual looking into history and facts that I had never known during my TBM years, my disbelief evolved into a knowledge, stronger than any testimony I ever had, that the church is in fact not true for anybody.

I don't know that anybody could ever convince me now that I am mistaken. I wouldn't trust a "vision" or anyone claiming to be divine.

I guess I would have to wonder why God would want to keep me/us/everyone out of his presence by making his true church so hard to believe. I mean, which of his children did he want back? The subservient ones who would obey anything no matter what they actually believed? Did he want those who would scam their neighbors, disown their children, and shun their neighbors all in the name of faithfulness?

If Mormonism turned out to be true then I guess the scene in the temple movie where Lucifer identifies himself as the god of this World would have to be correct.

After all, it is Lucifer who loves and makes a lie, and the leaders of the church simply refuse to tell the truth about far too many topics.

Everything in Mormonism is contradicted by everything in Mormonism. If Mormonism is true, then so is contradiction, conflict, lying for the lord, and antimormonism.

Rats. Now I am too confused to continue.

I would be bound by oath to cut my guts open , and slit my own throat.

If Mormonism ended up being true I would quote Depeche Mode.

I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours
But I think that God's got a sick sense of humor
And when I die I expect to find him laughing

+1

I would be proud of my telestial glory knowing I used my god-given brain to weigh and evaluate evidence and make decisions to the best of my knowledge and ability.

I would not want to share godhood in the celestial kingdom with money-grubbers, shunners, racists, misogynists, bigots, homophobes, murderers, anti-scientists, anti-thinkers, anti-truth know-it-alls, perverts, polygamists, polyandrists, wackos, loonies, or any other group that perfectly describes mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2013 01:49PM by hangar18.

My question is: true, what?

In the Big Picture I can accept that Mormonism, as well as thousands of other religious belief systems throughout the history of humanity are;True God Myth.

And, as such,history shows that it's typical for human beings to place their faith in metaphysical, supernatural, visionary, mystical claims that make up religions. It's ancient.

Religious beliefs, on many levels is the core of how people organize themselves in the typical tribal fashion. That also is ancient.

It's not just a belief by faith. We all know that it's core elements are found most often in how governments are run, how right and wrong is established, (that varies, of course), how laws are made, and on and on.

History shows that religious beliefs take on a territorial, geographical element that establishes the religion of a person by birth. (Not so much these days, of course.)

The value of these God Myths from ancient times has to do with giving humans an understanding of of why they are alive and what happens when they die. (Thousands of ideas come from religious views throughout history!). They also establish the celebrations and rituals for: birth, coming of age, marriage, and death.
Those rituals/ceremonies are very often extremely important.

So is Mormonism true? Of course it is. It's; True God Myth and that's fine with me. I can accept or reject it as the core values and ceremonies of how I want to live my life. Those that accept it, totally, (as many I know) will maintain their allegiance by faith, often until they die, never concerned that there is anything else that they need to consider.

My position is that religious beliefs are a right that all humans have to accept or reject.
I'm a believer in Universal Truths or Teachings such as: love one another. (And dozens more.)

At one time, I too was engaged in a level of religious beliefs that governed my whole life and that of my family. I thought that was an excellent choice at the time.

Now I understand that there are no: wouldas, shouldas, couldas, what ifs. No need for guilt or regret. I can change my mind and be confident that I am free to do that and live my life as I choose.

Others may not agree, but that doesn't matter. We can agree to disagree and be civil and decent about it.Our marriage, partnership, home, family, investment of years and years of life were more important than a difference of opinion about religious beliefs.

And we did, just that: agree to disagree, in my very long marriage of over 50 years. My husband's beliefs were about him and me at one point. Then they were about him, only. He could accept that, on some level, and so could I.

I'm a believer in respecting and honoring each person's rights to their belief system. That is about them. Not me. It's important to separate that in my view.

So it doesn't matter whether something is true of false, whether it s right or wrong. It's about what someone wants to accept for their life and I can accept that.

Resoundingly NO. The Book of Mormon is fiction. Smith did not have any visions, and we know he lied about it, and everything else, because like any dumbass liar, he couldn't keep his stories straight, and he couldn't resist embellishing them. Emotionally he never advanced beyond that 14 year old stage, and his storytelling exemplifies this.

Ever and anon, Susie, you are not using the word "myth" correctly. I and others have pointed this out before, but you're so bullheaded. For dogs sake, look it up! Learn from your mistakes. There is no Folk element to Smith's fantasies, he made it all up, what he didn't plagarize. That is not myth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2013 02:10PM by serena.

This is a very interesting question, and one that I was faced with when I decided to publically announce I had left TSCC.

After posting my journey out of TSCC on my blog, a former roommate of mine left many comments, one of which included this:

"If I am right, I know that you will not deny the truth right in front of your face. If the second coming happens, I know you will accept Christ. If you die and meet your Creator, I don't think your pride will keep you from happiness. I don't think you would disagree with me here."

I responded with:

"If it turns out that God is real, and that the Plan of Happiness is the reality of this world, I can honestly say that I would not be able to accept it automatically. I would have a lot of questions for God and Jesus about polygamy, doctrine that was taught by prophets and apostles about those of African descent and those that are gay, etc. If God and Jesus backed up those beliefs, and some of the other doctrine in the Church that I do not agree with, I would not be able to accept them. If all these things existed and were true, and I was cast out because I refused to accept it as right and true, then so be it. I honestly am not concerned about where I will end up after this life."

I still feel that way. Even if something is true, doesn't automatically make it right or something that I want to be a part of. That's something that struck me as I began to research troubling aspects of the church- if something doesn't sit well with me and I don't agree with it, even if it's considered the law or "the truth", doesn't mean I have to accept it as my truth, or go along with it. TSCC doesn't want its members to realize that option exists.

There may be consequences because of that attitude but I'd rather be free and reject something that felt wrong to me than be blackmailed into following someone's psycho rules and beliefs.

If it hypothetically turned out to be true, i would go back. I had the integrity and courage to leave the church when I discovered it was false, so the converse would also be true.

I can make believe but I can't make true.

I would rather make believe with my son than with the Mormons.

I discussed something like this with my brother yesterday (he's been nonbelieving much longer than me)

If this is really a test and we're supposed to have faith regardless of the mountains of evidence against the church... Then I guess I failed. I'm not ashamed of my choices and if there is a Jesus or God I believe they would understand that. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I guess it's up to Jesus if he's cool with that or if ultimately I'm deemed a lesser intelligence :-)

My conscience is clear.