I'm struggling with a lot of beliefs about women that I learned while Mormon -- has anybody else been taught that:
-- Women are responsible for relationships and marriages.
-- If a man isn't happy in his marriage, it's the woman's fault because it's her job to keep him happy.
-- If a woman isn't pretty enough, spiritual enough, good enough at homemaking, etc, then the man is justified in treating her however he wants and eventually finding a better woman.
-- Any man, even an abusive or unfaithful man, will become a good man when he finds the "right" woman; if he behaves badly, it's because the woman was not good enough.
-- Women are supposed to shut up, smile, and obey.
-- Women are supposed to endure (anything) to the end.
-- The man is always right.

I know none of these are true, but they're stuck in my head after decades of conditioning, and I'm having a tough time replacing them.

Ask them about these and they'll swear they aren't true. Every one of these is deeply ingrained into Mormon culture though...

Oh Ya! I was taught all of these! Even though I left the church 12 yrs ago they still linger. Ive been divorced nearly 20yrs now (Blah,..!) And parts of it still hang on!I Even Had an LDS marrage counselor tell me that the only differance between adulry & polygamy is lieing...So basically your husband is only guillty of Lieing to you!" HA!! Its funny now! But I guess the hardest thing for me to learn is to have faith in myself. Faith in my decissions and facing confrontations alone.BUT Im LEARNING!

Monsons wife is a good example.

What do you suppose would happen if his suitcase wasn't packed for him? What if everything wasn't just how he liked it? Shirts folded just so, every item in its place and accounted for. Given his charming personality, you can bet Francis would have paid for the sin of not getting it all jus right.

My own father is very much like that. My mother has been home to fix him lunch every single day for at least 40 years. She thinks he's not capable of feeding himself. This means she's never been away from the house for more than 3 hours unless she's with him. She can't even go to lunch with her daughter. It's disgusting.

There was something about that story that really bothered me. Here is Mrs. Monson, in bed and recuperating from a serious injury, and yet she still feels the need to tend to her husband like he is somehow helpless to pack his own suitcase.

Did it never dawn on them both that perhaps it was her turn to be waited on? When I suffered from multiple bone fractures, my family waited on me. They cleaned my home, brought meals, tended to my wounds, and generally helped out until I could function again independently.

When was it ever her turn in that marriage? Why was it always, always about him?

Why was it ALWAYS about HIM?

Yes, that's the burning question. Looking back on my marriage to a TBM, I realize that's what the men (and women) are taught: marriage is always all about the man. The woman exists to please him and make him happy. The man always has all the power and control, coupled with the expectation and belief that he's entitled to it and that this is the natural order of things.

Of course, they give lip service to the idea that marriage is a partnership and that the woman is supposed to be cherished and protected. What ends up happening is that the man gets to sit in judgment on everything his wife does. He feels entitled.

Patriarchy 101. UGH.

...Dad imagined she would still cook for him, do the laundry, clean the house, etc. My sisters stepped in, gave him a lecture... then did all the domestic chores for him.

This is exactly why the culture matters. I get really frustrated with some of my TBM friends who are openly disgusted by mormon culture but act like it doesn't really matter because "the church is twoo!"

You will not find any official church lesson manuals or scriptures that overtly say that a woman is responsible for her husband's behavior, obedience, or faith, but that doesn't mean they don't teach that.

Why do women have to dress modestly? Because otherwise men might have sinful thoughts and desires. The man's thoughts are the woman's responsibility. This attitude permeates the marriage relationship, too. You're exactly right, flybynight.

Wow...saw this crap in spades and developed early...age twelve I looked twenty. But was emotionally twelve and had plenty of years to experience mens projections of sin onto me. Here is one of many examples...in school I was taking social dancing and each time we exchanged partners and Id have to dance with this mo-ron, hed say he didnt want to dance with such a slut. The teacher over heard and kicked him out of class telling him that I was perfectly lovely girl. The only way he could beg his way back into class was to apologize. He admitted...."Sorry. I guess I called you a slut. Because, you really turn me on. It was not your problem. It was mine." That was the day that I discovered that so much of the accusations and crappy treatment of me by peter priesthood mos was really them trying to shove off their lusts and "sins" onto me.

judyblue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You will not find any official church lesson
> manuals or scriptures that overtly say that a
> woman is responsible for her husband's behavior,
> obedience, or faith, but that doesn't mean they
> don't teach that.


But what they teach is that women need a worthy priesthood holder husband in order to attain exaltation. tHe implication from that is that women should do whatever it takes to get and hold onto their man. Meanwhile, the only thing LDS men are taught about how to be a good husband is to obey the leaders. I know some men who ARE good husbands, but it didn't come from anything the church taught them.

Because I so quickly give away my power to a man. I have been in a long-term relationship for over 8 years now. I find myself slipping into those thoughts, too, and I have to stop myself.

I have learned through very difficult experience that the stronger I am and the less submissive--the less people pleaser I am--the better off I am in a relationship with a man. The stronger I am, the better they treat me--both my ex and my boyfriend. My attitude now is if he doesn't like me the way I am and the way I do things, he can hit the road.

I did everything I could to keep my ex happy--but, you know, when they are gay. He made life unbearable with his expectations. Eventually, EVERYTHING became my job and then he left. I was doing everything anyway--so why not leave me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2013 06:48PM by cl2.

I can relate to a lot of this.

Both men and women have these expectations of females. I bristle at these expectations of me, and though my husband says he disagrees with the general Mormon attitudes toward women, he still expects me to have dinner ready when he gets home, and to have his laundry folded. The simple question "Where are my socks?" can send me into a rage. It's silly, I know.

Yep, socks, dinner, the whole enchilada. I was back from an exhausting week-long road trip less than four hours (following my even more exhausting commencement from grad school and the last few weeks thereof...) when DH announced I would resume menu-planning, shopping, and cooking for the family now that I was "back on duty." He was offended that I wanted a day to rest first!

Flyby night: did you straighten him out in front of your kids I hope!

"All you want me to do is bat my eyes at you and say, 'Yes, Honey.'" It didn't go over well. This was after he gave me the book 'Fascinating Womanhood'.

Fascinating Womanhood the book for the ages.

I find it difficult to believe that any woman in twenty-first century America would follow this nonsense...

http://www.amazon.com/Fascinating-Womanhood-Helen-Andelin/dp/055329220X

The Answer

The first step to a happy marriage is to understand that all life is governed by law--nature, music, art, and all of the sciences. These laws are immutable. To live in harmony with them produces health, beauty, and the abundant life. To violate them brings ugliness and destruction. Just as unwavering are the laws of human relationships. These laws are in operation even though you may not understand them. You may be happy in marriage because you obey them, or you may be unhappy because you violate them without an awareness of the laws in operation.

Through ignorance of the laws of marriage relationships, much unnecessary unhappiness exists. We find one woman happy, honored, and loved; and another--no less attractive, no less admirable, no less lovable--neglected, unhappy, and disappointed. Why? This book explains why, for it teaches the laws she must obey if she is to be loved, honored, and adored.

Fascinating Womanhood

Fascinating Womanhood will teach you how to be happy in marriage. There are three essentials in reaching the goal:

1. Love: Since the cornerstone of a happy marriage is love, you will learn how to awaken your husband's love. These teachings apply, no matter what your age or situation. Love is not limited to the young or the beautiful, but to those who have qualities that awaken it.

If your husband doesn't love you, you are likely doing something to cool his affections, or have lost something which awakens his love. You may have begun marriage lovingly but romance is fading. Why? Could it be that you have changed? Take a good look. In most cases a man stops loving a woman after marriage because she stops doing things which arouse his feelings. When you regain your charming ways, love can be rekindled.

In winning your husband's love, it isn't necessary for him to know or do anything about it. This isn't to say that he doesn't make mistakes or need to improve, but when you correct your mistakes you bring about a loving response in him. Frequently his response is so remarkable that it exceeds your highest expectations.

The art of awakening a man's love is not a difficult accomplishment for women because it is based on our natural instincts. However, in our highly civilized life many of our natural instincts have become rusty due to lack of use. You need only to awaken the traits which belong to you by nature.

2. Self-Dignity: Essential to happiness in marriage is self-dignity. Does your husband ever speak to you harshly, criticize you unduly, treat you unfairly, neglect you, impose on you, or in any way mistreat you? The important thing is not what he does but how you react. Do you shrink back as if struck by a lash? Do you go into your shell? Do you pay him back with a cutting remark? Or, do you fly off the handle with an ugly temper? If you react in any of these ways you will cause yourself unnecessary grief and lessen your husband's love for you.

No man likes an ugly temper, nor does he want a woman he can walk on, or one who will retreat into her shell and feel sorry for herself. He wants a woman with some spunk--some hidden fire, a woman he can't push around. Some men even admire little spitfires, women who are adorably independent and saucy, whom they can't put down with even the most degrading remark.

In Fascinating Womanhood the method of handling wounded feelings is called childlike anger, spunk, or sauciness. It will teach you how to handle a man's rough nature without pain, without friction. You can, in a flash, turn a crisis into a humorous situation, so that the man may have the sudden impulse to laugh. Instead of hurting marriage, childlike anger can increase love and tenderness.

3. Desires: If you are to be happy in marriage your desires must be considered. I am referring to things you want to have, places you want to go, something you want to do, or something you want done for you. This is not to suggest selfish whims, but worthy desires. Unfortunately, you may have gone without these things for years because you didn't know how to motivate your husband to do these things for you.

As a consequence, his feelings for you have likely diminished. We love whom we serve. If your husband never does anything for you beyond the call of duty, he may lose his love for you. In Fascinating Womanhood you will learn how to obtain the things you need and deserve without causing a marital stir. Your husband will want to do things for you and will love you more because of it.

Although the teachings focus on building a relationship with your husband, the principles apply in building a relationship with any man--father, brother, son, teacher, student, employer. Take care, however, that you don't use them unrighteously, to win the affections of a married man. You would be guilty of a cruel sin and would destroy another woman's relationship as well as your own. In relationships outside of your marriage, apply them only to eliminate friction and to build harmony and trust.

The teachings are also helpful to the single mother who is rearing a family without a father present in the home. She becomes the feminine image for her children to view, as essential to boys in developing their manliness as to girls in developing their womanliness. She should also teach them about masculinity by providing them with a male image to associate with--her father, a brother, or another male person.

Within these pages you will learn principles to follow if you are to be happy, loved, and cherished. The study centers around the ideal woman, from a man's point of view, the kind of woman who awakens a man's deepest feelings of love. Within your reach is the possibility of a happy marriage. You can bring it about independent of any effort on the part of your husband. So, you hold the keys to your own happiness.

In accomplishing this you lose none of your dignity, influence, or freedom, but gain them, and it is only then that you can play your vital part in this world. The role of a woman when played correctly is fulfilling, fascinating, and full of intrigue. There never need be a dull moment. The practice of this art of womanhood is an enjoyable one, filled with rich rewards, numerous surprises, and vast happiness. Many years of experience teaching thousands of women has proven this to be true.

Sadly, I read this book several years ago and have been unable to get it out of my head -- mostly because there are many women whose testimonials say that Andelin's methods work and that their husbands treated them much better after they started following the book.

Mrs. Andelin doesn't really address the issue of what to do when one's husband is verbally and emotionally abusive. The "spunk" and "childlike anger" tactics aren't going to work on a man who habitually witholds his thoughts and feelings until he erupts into angry rages, blames and accuses his wife of crazy things (while insisting that he's right about her thoughts and motives and she is wrong), often threatens to leave, and then denies he ever said/did such things and doesn't know where she "got that."

How is it that TSCC and it's culture expect us to treat the man on the presumption that he is always right, fair, just, and wise, even if he is obviously crazy, wrong, unfair, and lives in his own bizarre reality?

And yes, if he just finds the "right woman," all this is going to go away and he will treat her like a queen...

"And yes, if he just finds the "right woman," all this is going to go away and he will treat her like a queen..."

Queen Marie Antoinette.... or Queen Anne Boleyn.

I say this a lot when learning about Mormon culture (at least to myself), but: holy shit.

This is the biggest bunch of crap I have ever heard!!! Oh my God if the woman isn't happy it's because she isn't treating her husband right? Give me a damn break!!! So I guess this is the neanderthal way of thinking??? I am so eternally greatful that I didn't fall into the Mormon Trap!!! Of course now the damn elders won't leave me alone. Now they are telling me that I have fallen victim to the devil because I am choosing not to be Baptised. I have been Baptised!!! When I was a baby, by my parents!!! I thought this was going to help me but I was wrong. I thought it was going to restore my faith but all it ended up doing was making me want to run in the other direction, SCREAMING!!! For anyone who is thinking about choosing a Mormon Conversion DON'T DO IT!!! I believe in being spiritual not religious. Trust me stick with your original set of beliefs. I am and I'm very happy about my decisions. No regrets here.

Another one to add is that the wife should stay home and raise the children. I didn't really go for the other stuff on the list but I felt like a douche when I couldn't provide for my family on my own until very recently. I very reluctantly allowed my wife to work and even then what I should have done was sent her to school to get a real degree instead of a stupid BYU degree. I'm paying for that one now haha

Wow. Just... wow. The patriarchy just ooozes out of this post.

You "allowed" your wife to go back to work?
What you should have done is "sent her to school"?

Are you fucking kidding me? People still think this way in marriages? In 2013? Seriously?

What you should have done is said "Honey. What do YOU want to do?" and then supported the next thing that came out of her mouth.

I remember as a child of 10 trying to figure out why my parents were so miserable. They were smart, good looking, well educated and had money. Why did happiness elude them?

Just as the fish doesn't know it's wet; being immersed in Mormon culture we couldn't see it was the Mormonism.

Our first big clue should be that JSJ and BY had horrible marriages. How can anything good be salvaged from something so foul?

(But the truth of these marriages wasn't openly discussed.)

I personally wasn't taught any of this, and I know of only a few instances of behaviors like this occurring. My parents were certainly not this way, and few members around here were this way (at least that I was aware of.) Although, I do know a few cases where the husband was a complete piece of shit, but still honored and respected as a good Mormon or a good family man.

I have seen alot of Mormon marriages that fit these outdated 1950's housewife standards.

Thankfully, I had the right mind-set (even as an ultra-TBM) to pick out an awesome guy. So, I guess I havent felt most of these pressures just because my husband never cared about any of them.

I did feel other pressures from mormon culture though. I felt pressure to be a perfect mom and to love it all the time. Also, I felt pressure to "do it all".... have a clean house, spend quality time with the kids, work a part time job, AND look beautiful and perfect all the time.

I didn't really take it all to heart generally, but sometimes it would get me down... when all these other women in the ward could literally do it all. Then, I became friends with a lot of these women and learned that they didnt do it all and that most of them were on anti-depressants.

My daughter was told at Trek this year (2013) that her job as a wife was to keep her husband happy. I almost vomited when she told me this. She said she couldn't stand it so she got up and went to the bathroom. I'm glad she;s catching on to the bs. I can't believe anyone, let alone a woman would teach these things to these girls.

You just summed up my marriage. When I got divorced my husband had never, packed his own suitcase, bought his own underwear, used a washing machine, ironed a shirt, written out checks to pay bills or filed his own taxes. He also, had never purchased gifts for his children or his parents.

If the girls were less than perfect, it was my fault. I'm not sure that he has ever had a conversation with either of our daughters.

If I ever disagreed with him, he would say, "You don't really think that".

The best gift he ever gave me was walking out, because I would have endured to the end.

Though this may be very prevalent in the Mormon world, it's not exclusive to it. My neice can't go anywhere over night because she has to be home to get her husband's towel and clothes ready when he gets in the shower...seriously! (and this is the 30-ish age group)

Personally if my husband expected that, even my teenage daughter said she's sure dad would find all his clothes and towels IN the shower..with it running and ready for him..lol

And just today I talked to a mom with teenagers who still wakes them for school/sports (typical helicopter mom) and when I said mine have their own alarm clocks and get themselves up and ready...she looked confused and said she didn't know if her husband would LET HER buy alarm clocks for her kids!! HUH?? I never thought to ask???!

Good grief.

I had a co-worker who had a 19-year-old son. He did not live with her -- he lived in an apartment near campus with three roommates (although Mommy paid his share of the rent). I was stunned one day when I overheard her calling him, at 11 a.m., to make sure that he'd gotten up so he could get to work on time.

I thought -- Are you kidding me? When I was 19, I was a sophomore in college, juggling a full-time class load and a 15-hour-a-week off-campus job. I also worked over Christmas break and the summers. Not once did any parent, ever, call me to make sure I got to work okay.

Sometimes I'm really grateful my parents taught me to be independent through what was apparently benign neglect.

This is one of the reasons why I divorced my TBM ex-husband, and that I'm glad that I found someone who wants an equal companion, not a slave. My nevermo fiancee and I plan to share the household duties, as he's basically lived on his own since college. When I've been sick, he's been the one to wait on me, and to help clean. He also supports me in that I plan to work, as he knows that it means that I'll help with the finances, and that there's more stability with 2 incomes.

I basically lucked out with my fiancee, as I was perfectly content to be single for the rest of my life if I didn't find someone who wanted an equal partner in the relationship.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2013 03:28PM by adoylelb.