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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 12:59PM

This is my perspective and analysis, based on my observation and experience living their teachings/theology and practices for several decades as a young adult convert.

Preface:
I am a bit a purist when it comes to the use of words. Cult has a general definition that has to do with worship or churches in general.

I do not use the term cult re: Mormonism any more than I would for Lutherans, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc. I don't use any terms or words that are unacceptable to believers, just as a general rule, as it often breaks down communication and often results in rejection on some level which I want to avoid.

It's my view that the word cult has too often become an emotionally loaded pejorative and used maliciously to disparage people's religion. I won't do that to Mormons or Mormonism because I want to keep the doors of communication open, not shut off all hope of future relationships.

I am also a bit of a skeptic and use critical thinking skills to evaluate how authors of books, who are accepted as some kind of authority, in this instance, have used the word cult to disenfranchise people who are living a different religion than they are, or one they find unacceptable, for some reason. I don't buy into that kind of play on the gullibility of people that may be in a raw, emotional state. I reject their authoritative-type manipulation of the words, just like I do anyone else who does the same thing.

My analysis of why Mormonism functions as a tribe. and why Mormonism has such a strong hold on one who is "truly converted" aka TBM True Believing Mormon. Tribe is part of core theology of the LDS Church. (references in text)

First, it's my conclusion that we are dealing with a God Myth- based on belief by faith and symbolism, not factual evidence- which has great power with the believers. That is true across the board and well established throughout human history.
(See "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers -
Hard back has the beautiful illustrations)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Power-Myth-Joseph-Campbell/dp/0385418868

Secondly, the patterns within the church are similar to patterns in all church organizations: special leaders, special music, it's own language, special costuming, their own unique architecture, often generational life-long believers, rituals around the same major times in life: birth, coming of age, marriage, death.

Mormonism, in my long experience and observation is more accurately described as a two century, predominately American, patriarchal-line of authority, generational, cultural, societal, restoration church, religious tribe with it's own sacred clothing, music, and language, architecture, etc.

About their theology.
The word: tribe is used in their lexicon.
See this link for further explanation of their teachings on the Ten Tribes of Israel.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/israel

Members are given a Patriarchal Blessing by the specially called Patriarch in their area.
An important core belief of their theology is the Declaration of Lineage This is given to each person that receives their Patriarchal Blessing.

"A patriarchal blessing includes a declaration of lineage, stating that the person is of the house of Israel—a descendant of Abraham, belonging to a specific tribe of Jacob. Many Latter-day Saints are of the tribe of Ephraim, the tribe given the primary responsibility to lead the latter-day work of the Lord.

Because each of us has many bloodlines running in us, two members of the same family may be declared as being of different tribes in Israel.

It does not matter if a person's lineage in the house of Israel is through bloodlines or by adoption. Church members are counted as a descendant of Abraham and an heir to all the promises and blessings contained in the Abrahamic covenant (see Abrahamic Covenant)"
REF: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=17517c2fc20b8010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
(As an adult convert, I was considered an adopted member of the tribe.)

Considering how tribes universally manifest, it is, in my view, the best way to understand how Mormonism creates a whole paradigm for the individual in a typically generational, patriarchal,familial,societal, religious context complete with it's own unique rituals/ordinances, music, language, including special garments (underwear) known as the Holy Garment of the Melchizedek Priesthood to be worn day and night including the special burial attire. Their Patriarchal Blessings go so far as to establish the tribe the person is from. See link above.

The core belief is the Eternal Family in a Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Their testimony; Joseph Smith Jr received the Keys of Authority to the Ordinances for eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom.

Disruption of that core provides the opportunity for mild to extreme measures for those that leave and no longer fit in the Eternal Family as they define it. It is a highly exclusive religiously based tribe. There is a strong element of: being in the world but not of the world, and us vs them mind set.

The various religions of the world have, throughout history, defined the specific rituals of each religious heritage-tribe etc. It's common for each one to place great importance on those rituals as the only correct way to perform the traditions and please their Gods: deities/savior, etc. Throughout the history of humanity, human beings have very often been instilled with the necessity of pleasing God and the horrific error and consequence of displeasing God. Mormonism follows much the same patterns.

If the traditions/beliefs, etc. don't appeal to a member of the group/tribe, for any number of reasons, and leaving becomes necessary,, it is often met with hostility as the customs/rituals of the religious tribe have been rejected which is seen as a personal betrayal, and the prior member could be seen as an enemy as we see in religious wars. This is particularly well documented in the animal kingdom.

Not all religions take such a strong stand as many Mormons believers do, however, to some degree, those that leave their heritage/religious tribe (Eternal Family), will be often have a great difficulty retaining any kind of cohesive relationship with the believers especially if they are family members. Often that can be overcome, but it takes some time for everyone to adjust to the changes, which is not something human beings do easily.

Even those that may not be "truly converted" may stay because it is their heritage. It appears that strong family ties, especially generational ones with it's strong culture (only true church, Eternal Family etc.,) is paramount in keeping valued relationships with many who may not be a true believer, but accept it as their heritage, culture and familial, traditional religious choice. The need to preserve their place in the tribe is stronger than the need to leave it.
They find more value in it than out of it. It is often directly correlated to keeping their jobs, careers, educational scholarships,etc.

Religion in general requires a strong emotional attachment based on feelings, or a testimony or spiritual witness, as that is how they work best. They do not require factual evidence to be sustained by the believers, as the human truths for living are within the stories, parables, allegories, and so on which are filled with symbolism that translated into many languages.

In the case of Mormonism, there is a strong belief in the claims as literal. The fact is: we are more alike than different when establishing consistent universal truths for living; emotional attachments to strong beliefs override factual evidences especially when immersed in talk that is "truth."

Leaving your tribe, in this case Mormonism requires, in my view and my experience, the ability to detach emotionally and accept what works for others as a general rule. It also requires in part, the role of the observer and the necessity of separating what is about someone else and what is about us, personally.

Considering how tribes manifest, it is, in my view, the best way to understand how Mormonism creates a whole paradigm for the individual in a familial, societal, religious context aka tribe.
Leaving Mormonism is, for many, leaving their tribe in every sense of the word.

When leaving the LDS Church, we are, in deed, leaving our tribe. As believers, the member was told, through their Patriarchal Blessings that (for the most part) the member "is of the house of Israel—a descendant of Abraham, belonging to a specific tribe of Jacob. Many Latter-day Saints are of the tribe of Ephraim, the tribe given the primary responsibility to lead the latter-day work of the Lord."This is an integral core doctrine as part of their claim that they are a Restoration Church with the keys to act in the name of Jesus Christ.

More info here.
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=17517c2fc20b8010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

More on why it's hard to leave:

When we leave the LDS Church/Mormonism, (belief system), in many ways the perception by the believers is that we betrayed and rejected our heritage - our tribe; our family, discarded our societal system, and our support system, including our friends and are now outsiders. It is seen as a frontal assault on their Eternal Family.

That is at the core, in my observation and experience, of why it's so difficult to leave the LDS Church. In many cases, every single element of our entire life, our total environment is tied up in our heritage, whether we are BIC (Born in the Covenant), or a convert (an adopted member of the tribe.)

Leaving Mormonism.

There is a world outside Mormonism, and it's carefully constructed filter.Welcome to the Wide World of Ideas: life is no longer a set of answers to every question, black and white, right and wrong, good and bad thinking. There is a whole new gray area and lots of new options.

The life or an outsider or specifically an apostate, for instance, requires a whole new World View and new support system. That is a daunting task and something that takes time. It also takes time and patience dealing with those who are living with and observing our changes. They need time to adjust to our major changes.

The looming question: If the LDS claims are not acceptable to be believed, then what is? And therein lies the journey and the need for information and support. Often that is found in this board and other online support boards.

One of the important elements, as I have experienced leaving Mormonism has been to take my power back and own it. That means I am very careful about who I give power over my life to. It also includes knowing we are OK and were OK all along. We can trust ourselves!

It means, for instance, no longer acquiescing to religious/ecclesiastical authority.It means learning to set new boundaries which is often difficult coming out of a religious environment with very few boundaries and a very large Confidentiality Loop.

What was acceptable in the day to day life of Mormonism and how it functions, is suddenly no longer the case. The controls (enforced or implied) are gone. The individual is left to figure it out for themselves.

Fortunately, we have the ability to touch base with others, to know we are not alone. We can learn from others. We can listen to a wide variety of opinions and decide what works for us. We don't all experience Mormonism the say way, nor so we leave it the same way.

We can carve out a new life of our own, based on our own ability to chart our own life on our own terms. How we do that is up to us. I prefer not to take all of the religious experiences so seriously. The past is gone and done with. I don't want it to mess up my present. What I want to remember with gratitude and cherish are the parts with value which are mostly my family.

Leaving Mormonism, or leaving your tribe, however one approaches the exit process, as I describe it, is never about being weak. It is about being strong enough to feel the fear and do it anyway even if the consequences of our decisions are not known at the time.

Leaving Mormonism is about keeping your self confidence, self esteem, self respect cranked up on high and not allowing anyone to destroy any part of you.

Leaving Mormonism is about giving yourself permission to be authentic and create your own World View. It's about taking off the Mormon filter and seeing the world with new eyes. It's about deleting and replacing dozens of automatic thinking scripts imprinted by years of teachings.

Leaving Mormonism is not just about having some hurt feelings or being offended, or having a bad experience. Life for everyone is filled with those kinds of experiences. If it were true that people left because of those notions, there would be no Mormons left in the church! :-)

Leaving Mormonism is about taking your power back and owning it and not being intimidated by the leaders or others who put their pants on one leg at a time, just like you do. Their authority only exists if we give it to them.

It is about choosing not to live by the doctrines/policies of a powerful, authoritative church that has something to say about every facet of one's life from what one eats, how one dresses-right down to the regulation 24/7 underwear, how one spends money, and their time. Mormonism is a life-style.

It's about being willing to step outside the cultural, religious boundaries of the familial tribe, and be OK doing it.

It is about setting boundaries and not allowing any Mormon leader to intrude into their personal lives, especially asking if one masturbates and other questions of a sexual nature. This is particularly inappropriate when a bishop interviews 12 to 19 year old (males and females) in the privacy of his office with no parent present. (My view is that will have to stop and the sooner the better!)

Leaving Mormonism is about recognizing that covenants and promises made on the metaphysical, supernatural claims at baptism, in the temple, sealing ceremony (for after death), etc. are symbolic only and not binding, never were and never will be. Only belief in the God Myth gives those covenants validity. Legally, there is no contract.

A careful study of D&C 132 with a comparison of the temple marriage ceremony dialog and the endowments in the temple show that the policy of polygamy (New and Everlasting Covenant) has not stopped, only changed in how it is currently lived to comply with the laws that were in existence all along. Read carefully, recall what you said and did, the marriage ceremony is tucked into your covenant to give all you have (time, talents, money) to the church. Some wonder if they ever married each other, of if they married the church.
Leaving Mormonism takes a huge dose of courage, tenacity and perseverance to withstand the onslaught of any Mormon who tries to discourage you from making your own choices.

There are some Mormons who have preconceived ideas that those who leave must have sinned, not repented fully or enough or in the proper way, not tried hard enough, didn't read the scriptures enough or with sincere intent, did not pray enough or in the right way, did not have the right attitude, lost "the spirit," were adulterers, and apostates, labeling their prior friends and relatives as something less than acceptable.
They operate out of fear that they have lost their "Celestial Family." which has been well imprinted by generations of the cultural, tradition mores of the tribe.

Those who leave are often treated as an enemy -- the spawn of Satan, and as such are often shunned and ignored after being denigrated in the most despicable manner; some, more so than others. A few escape this completely.This is especially grievous behavior when it occurs in families and is used as a wedge.

Some forget their own 11th Article of Faith in their zeal to denigrate and vilify anyone who leaves.

11th Article of Faith "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own heart, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

It is a breath of fresh air to meet a Mormon who is respectful and will honestly honor the choice to leave Mormonism and live their own 11th Article of Faith. Fortunately, I'm married to one!

It might be a little bit of a side-ways acceptance, as they maintain the Mormon World View, but at least, some do try. And, for that, I am very grateful!

I was fortunate to be married for over 50 years to a true believer that was able to live and show by example the best of their beliefs when I changed my mind and left the LDS Church.

Leaving Mormonism is knowing and never forgetting that you are OK, you were OK all along. You did nothing "wrong." There is no need for guilt, or shame either.

Leaving Mormonism is also about being able to have a good healthy, healing laugh at ourselves and the goofy, funny things we used to do. Takes awhile to get to that point, for some. I'm fortunate. I get to the humor quickly and I find it very healing.

Leaving Mormonism is about knowing that it is OK to be an authentic adult and choose your own underwear! How funny is that anyhow?

The word tribe best describes my observations, and experiences living the religion as a convert or several decades, completely immersed as a believing member. It is an analysis that gives me the greatest latitude in understanding how it functions and why it is difficult to leave it. I like the term, as it's all inclusive, encompassing the totality of it's history and how it functions today.

Our experiences, as LDS folks, are often very different for a variety of reasons. One does not minimize the other just because they are different.


“The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is hard business. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.”
― Rudyard Kipling

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 02:01PM

SusieQ1says, "I don't use any terms or words that are unacceptable to believers, just as a general rule, as it often breaks down communication and often results in rejection on some level which I want to avoid."


The above quote of yours seems to be in exact opposition to your closing quote.

“The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is hard business. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.”
― Rudyard Kipling

Your original opening indicated that you will do anything at all to stay in good graces with TBMs and that risk of rejection is your main concern in a relationship. At face value I find this to be a lack of integrity. I do find integrity in the statement by Kipling however and wonder how you reconcile the two opposing views?

Also, regarding purity of words, the following is one of the definitions of a cult: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object--which would make the Mormons a cult. The question is how dangerous a cult?

The original meaning of tribe was "a human community developed by an association of, and interbreeding between, a number of families, opposed in principle to crossbreeding with other communities and preserving its own customs, beliefs sand organization." That would be the pure definition.

While the word tribe has been semantically imbued with newer meanings to suit the user as well as diminish its impact, it has nothing to do with the Mormon church.

Many of the other religions you list do not meet the criteria of the more insidious definitions of cult, but the Mormon church does. Saying Mormonism is like other religions is nothing short of pure apologetics. You have stayed pure on that count.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2014 08:03PM by blueorchid.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 10:27PM

Never mind that if you don't use words that offends TSCC, you give TSCC power over you. Susie talks about reclaiming her power, but hat is not what she really does.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:42PM

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Never mind that if you don't use words that
> offends TSCC, you give TSCC power over you. Susie
> talks about reclaiming her power, but hat is not
> what she really does.


I see we disagree. I'll agree to disagree. It's probably the most powerful we did in our 50 plus year marriage: Agree to Disagree! :-)

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 10:08PM

This is my analysis of how it functioned based on the teachings (re: tribe and their claim to it's functions), and my experience as a convert.

Clearly,members process and internalize what they are taught and lived individually with a wide variance in outcomes, attitudes, etc.

There is no expectation that everyone will agree.

This is how my three plus decades of living it as a totally immersed member, makes sense to me.

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 10:21PM

Tribe and cult are not mutually exclusive words.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 10:27PM


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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 10:29PM

Trying to use tribe vs cult is like trying to say pooh rather than shit. It is still a stinky smelly pile of shit, no matter how much lipstick you try to put on it.

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Posted by: Tom Padley ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 10:55PM

I'm good with tribe. Cult sends a definite message of evil. Maybe tribal culture or something like that. What TSCC does is so pervasive, it affects every area of your life and the lives of those within the tribe. Complete indoctrination and domination.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 11:30PM

After 30 years of fighting for my rights against religions and TSCC, I am fine with evil.

That is not the same as saying all members are evil, but I am fine with the idea that they have been manipulated by an evil institution into doing evil thinking it is right.

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Posted by: Tom Padley ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:20AM

Yes, I see your point. The tribe as a whole is not evil. The tribal elders are another matter. IMO JS may not have started out evil, but the path he followed took him there. And Brigham certainly filled the role of evil tyrant well. His successors have carried the torch, though in a more passive-aggressive manner as time went on.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 11:33AM

"His successors have carried the torch, though in a more passive-aggressive manner as time went on."

I love this observation because it is so easy to see the modern prophets in a different light since their ugliness and the harm they do is so much harder to see since it has become more mind control and less physical intimidation. The blood atonement may have stopped--no more javelins through the heart--but there is still "emotional and mental atonement" being preached that is even worse but is able to fly under the radar as "doctrine or God's will." It does as much if not more damage.

Beat somebody up physically you go to jail. Beat them up emotionally and you'll rise in the church faster.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 11:38PM

My preferred method when dealing with others is The Golden Rule. My guide is to treat others as I want to be treated.

I lived with and loved Mormons with relationships that I wanted to keep as they were all very special.

I kept a 50+ year marriage by being respectful of others religions and views within the family.

We each figure out a way to deal with Mormonism when we determine we want to change our mind about our belief system. My goal was to do that with kindness and as little upheaval as possible. I didn't always meet my goal and neither did others, but adult, mature behavior prevailed.

My view will always be colored by the fact that I jumped in with both feet when I was a young adult straight from other Christian beliefs. God, Christ, the Bible, etc. were very familiar teachings to me.
I married an RM in the temple a year later and moved to BYU married student housing in 1963.
There is no other term that explains how that environment worked but tribal.

Everyone has their own ideas on how the religious belief system worked in their lives. Personal experiences determine our analysis and how we deal with the religion.

At this point, most of my immediate family (not all) is no longer involved with or believers in Mormonism.

At my age, I have determined how I want to live the rest of my life. My goals are to live with kindness, an attitude of gratitude, unconditional love, and enjoy every day using humor and laughter to get through the good parts and the hard parts.

I am convinced, at this point,since my husband died and my brother died a year apart, that there is no need for me to live according to some religious restrictions, nor am I accountable to any ecclesiastics. Life is just too short for anything but freedom and enjoy being a free thinker.

I will continue to treat others the way I want to be treated and respect their right to any belief system they prefer or change their mind as some do. Their beliefs are not about me. That is about them.

There will always be a wide variety of human behavior whether in a religion or not as people are sometimes at their best and sometimes at their worse. I will also hope that criminal behavior will be prosecuted wither it's involved in a religion or not.

My view is that people make a religion what it is and that involves a wide rage of behavior.

I'll stick to Universal Truths that I prefer: love one another, forgive everyone, everything, every time, and be grateful for each day I have to live and love and laugh.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 11:50PM

The golden rule does not require any, I repeat, any consideration of what the other person wants.

Perfect for those that do not want to consider the wants, needs of feeling of others.

From what I could tell, I would NOT want to be treated the way you seem to want to be treated, so by following the GR, you would treat me the way I would not wanted to be treated. SELFISH.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2014 11:51PM by MJ.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 11, 2014 11:59PM

MJ Wrote:
-------------

I'm sorry you don't know me in person as you would not say those things as they are not who I am.

That's OK. I understand where you are coming from.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:08AM

I never said such a thing. I said "from what I can tell" which is a statement about my PERCEPTION of you, not a claim about what you really are.

But thanks for confirming my perception and for treating me the way YOU would want to be treated.

Your statement of understanding of where I am coming from is something you can not know (for the same reason I can not actually know you) so you are doing what you accursed me of doing. It is not a perception, it is a statement of understand my feelings, an arrogant assumption. But is is behavior I expect from you on this board.

But why would that bother you? The Golden rule you follow does not have any regard about what I want or feel. Again confirming my PERCEPTION.

BTW, since you treat me in such a condescending way, arrogantly saying you know where I am coming from when you can not possibly KNOW, you must want to be treated in a condescending way, if you actually live by the golden rule.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 12:20AM by MJ.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:21AM

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
It's obvious we are not communicating. So I leave you.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:26AM

Well if getting insulting, taking your ball and going home is the way you treat me, then, by way of the Golden rule, you must want people to treat you that way. REALLY?

You rudely claim that "We" are not communicating.

You are communicating a great deal to me, sad the golden rule prevents you from allowing me to communicate to you.

Since I am being communicated to by you, then the communication problem is yours alone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 12:27AM by MJ.

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Posted by: Tom Padley ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:27AM

SusieQ#1, I also believe in the Golden Rule, but I will NOT allow anyone to run me over. There is a limit to that rule. I got run over most of my life by bullies until I learned how to stand my ground. I'm not aggressive in any way, but when attacked - I fight back. And when someone attacks anyone I care about I'm worse. Just ask a certain TBM relative that dissed my daughter's wedding when it didn't conform to their standards.

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Posted by: Tom Padley ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:28AM

Ooops. Hit the button twice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 12:29AM by Tom Padley.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:32AM

actually, the golden rule has not limits. It clearly does not require you to consider the feeling of anyone but yourself.

Egotistical and self centered.

The golden rule has the fisherman husband giving a fishing pole to a wife that hates fishing. Completely within the GR.

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Posted by: Tom Padley ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:50AM

I don't want to get into a debate over the golden rule. My personal golden rule DOES consider others. I don't call it the golden rule because of that difference. Here's the rule I live by:

Treat others the way you want to be treated.

In other words, if I offend someone I expect to be offended in return. If I treat someone well I expect to be treated well. That doesn't always happen, but life isn't always fair - actually it's rarely fair. I always consider the other person's feelings, though I may disregard their feelings if they are offensive. I hope that makes sense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 12:50AM by Tom Padley.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:52AM

You may want to reconsider what you call your personal philosophy.

THE golden rule has nothing about how people treat you back. You still show no regards for how THEY want to be treated. And that is a MAJOR problem in my book.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 12:57AM by MJ.

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Posted by: Tom Padley ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:56AM

I call it my rule. I erred when I referred to it as the golden rule. My sincere apologies for being human.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 01:00AM

I guess that is how you want to be treated, with sarcastic playing the victim. At least by "your rule".

To me, being human is admitting one is wrong without that snotty shit at the end.

Phhht. Go pay with the 13 year olds you are acting like.

Just giving back what you should expect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 01:01AM by MJ.

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Posted by: Tom Padley ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 01:06AM

It wasn't meant to be snotty. Just trying to calm the situation down. I'm as human as anyone else and make a lot of mistakes. But I admit my mistakes and move on. Hopefully that isn't considered snotty. If so, that's your problem not mine. You are investing a lot more emotion in this than I am. Please accept my apology. Nothing I said was meant to be offensive to you personally. I'll likely avoid you in the future. Too much intensity for me.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 01:11AM

Yes, it was snotty regardless of what you claim it was intended as.

You threw a snotty remark, I am returning the same as YOU SHOULD EXPECT by your own rule.

There in lies another problem with your rule, what you think is snotty may be different than what other think snotty is.

BUt since your philosophy does not take that into account it should not be a problem for you, so why are you acting as if what I think is important to you? It is clearly not part of your rule.

You treated my in a snotty way, so that is what you should expect from me. Don't blame me, it is your rule.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:09PM

Tom Padley Wrote:

Treat others the way I want to be treated is the Golden Rule, in my view.


I have the same rule in some respects. Or rather a goal. It is my intention.

First of all, nobody can offend me if I don't allow it.
If I own my own power nobody can offend me. They don't have that power. That makes a huge difference in my life.
I refuse to suffer other people's nastiness. I don't take it on myself. That is what I mean by a Duck Suit. I let it run off my back metaphorically and let it be about them.

"Don't wear your feelings on your shirt sleeve" is an old adage from my dad (maternal grandfather).

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:39AM

"Treat others at they would like to be treated."

That requires focusing on other people rather than on oneself. It's beyond presumptuous (and scary) to think that people are just like me.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:42AM

That's better. But what happens if someone is suicidal and wants someone to put them out of their misery?

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 01:12AM

ETA: Upon further reflection, for me, it's not a rule. It's more like an attitude or an approach.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 01:15AM by Beth.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 01:15AM

I have a problem with "rules" to live by. They always seem to have what I consider immoral consequences.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 01:16AM

Yes. It's not a rigid thing. It's not made of gold, either. ;-)

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 01:24AM

It is nice have an actual exchange of ideas.

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Posted by: girlreclaimed ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 01:09AM

Speaking of misery, how was your day MJ?

Just my perception.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 01:12AM

Having a great laugh at the narcissists and you are spewing forth.

Do these people think, even for a second about the ramifications of their so called rules to live by?

Oh, and if trying to put me down makes you feel better about yourself, go right ahead, I don't give a shit what you think or say.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 01:14AM by MJ.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 11:15AM

I was hoping to have a discussion about how Mormonism functions in a tribal manner in how it is all inclusive, and uses strong familial, and social, and cultural ties to keep the member in the group.

The group dynamic from the family to the extended family to the leaders, often put pressure on a member who does not want to stay a believing member which very often causes a big emotional upheaval. This is what leaving your tribe can include.

Yes, Mormonism does teach that they are one of the Tribes of Israel in their Restored Keys to the Last Dispensation doctrine.

My observation is that no two people experience leaving Mormonism in the same manner. In my case, even though I was met with some difficulties, I was able to maintain the relationships in my family and with friends. Some were not accepting at first, but eventually, came around. It takes patience and kindness and understanding, in my view, to keep those relationships that are important in our lives.

I used the original Kipling quote in the OP rather than the shortened version by Nietzsche.

No matter how you understand and analyze your experience there is some level of difficulty when trying to leave your tribe.


My goal is to treat others with kindness and civility just as I want to be treated. I do have very clear boundaries. That is what it means to me to own my own power also. I own my rights to being treated civility. One more thing, nobody runs over me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 11:19AM by SusieQ#1.

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Posted by: White Cliffs ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 11:43AM

That was a nice and encouraging post, Suzie.

I'm sorry that your thread got hijacked by a boorish egomaniac, but I guess it had to happen to prove your point.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:03PM

White Cliffs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That was a nice and encouraging post, Suzie.
>
> I'm sorry that your thread got hijacked by a
> boorish egomaniac, but I guess it had to happen to
> prove your point.


It happens. This is the Internet! ha!

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:05PM

"Boorish egomaniac"??? Whoa. Strong disagreement is not necessarily hijacking. Now you have encouraged Suzie to once again discount what anyone who disagrees with her says.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:10PM

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Boorish egomaniac"??? Whoa. Strong disagreement
> is not necessarily hijacking. Now you have
> encouraged Suzie to once again discount what
> anyone who disagrees with her says.


Disagree all you want. And we do. We are expressing our analysis, experience, opinions. They all have value to the person.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 12:11PM by SusieQ#1.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:24PM

My problem is with someone calling some one who disagrees with you a boorish egomaniac and then you implying agreement by saying "It happens. This is the Internet! ha!"

That takes your comments out of the range of matter of fact discussion and unbiased analysis.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:29PM

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My problem is with someone calling some one who
> disagrees with you a boorish egomaniac and then
> you implying agreement by saying "It happens. This
> is the Internet! ha!"
>
> That takes your comments out of the range of
> matter of fact discussion and unbiased analysis.


I didn't say that. I just said it happens on the Internet.
No need to read anything into it.
Stuff happens, people disagree, people use descriptive wording. It happens.
That is how someone else saw the exchange, which happens on the Internet.
It does not imply it is how I saw it.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 11:47AM

Thankfully, we never again must let others do the thinking or choosing for us.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:04PM

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thankfully, we never again must let others do the
> thinking or choosing for us.


Exactly! That is difficult at times, when we are so immersed with a long history of living and believing a certain way.

It all boils down to what I call: taking your power back and owning it.

You are in charge. It's your life. You live it and do it your way.

I do it with a lot of gratitude that I have another day to enjoy with friends and loved ones, even if they are far away. The phone goes with me!

Life is good in so many ways.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 12:05PM by SusieQ#1.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2014 12:13PM

Disagreement is what brought us to this point, whatever it is, in our process of leaving Mormonism.

Disagreement is what gives us the opportunity to hear how others view their world and their experiences.

There is value in all of our experiences that is important to each of us.
I have presented my analysis, view, experience from my eyes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2014 12:13PM by SusieQ#1.

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