I was wondering....there are so many Mormons here in the US, who are not here legally, but they can still obtain temple recommends. They are lying, if they answer the question about honesty, as yes. I thought honesty was important. Or is there difference between one and another honesty? I guess...as long as you pay...you are good to go.

I was a missionary in CA in the 1990's. We were told we could baptize illegal aliens, but they couldn't get a Temple Recommend because they weren't being "honest in their dealings with fellow men." Now idea if that is still the case.

let's remember: Bishops come in all shapes/sizes/descriptions; I think the intense vetting comes with calling as a SP.

that said, all LDS leaders are under pressure to conform & comply. Most of us won't know how much stats figure into that (tithing, TRs, Temple attendance, etc)

SPs rarely get involved with individual cases (yes, exceptions), whereas Bps. sit 'on the stand', Looking at members, Knowing some of the challenges & shortcomings. I'm sure their ability to cope/get personally involved taper as their time into the calling wanes... Part of being a Bp involves explaining to (TBM) members why things aren't as claimed/hoped for in Morland; I think SPs are by-and-large spared from that situation.

A definate leadership skill/task is to bounce back any/everthing about church policies/practices/ 'doctrines' and make it seem as though TSCC (other leaders) are blameless.

I agree. I don't think most Bishops would care THAT much about tithing. They're just normal people called to do the job, and do not benefit in any way from people paying tithing, it's nothing comparable to a GA or something.

When you get called as a Bishop you don't get a GA come over and tell you all the hidden secrets of the church. It's not like that at all. You know hardly any more than a normal TBM. It's at Mission President/Area Seventy level where it really seems to get serious.

I have read articles about the church's position on illegal immigration where being an illegal alien is comparable to getting a traffic ticket. No consequences as far as the church is concerned. In my opinion when my taxes go up to subsidize illegal aliens, my health insurance premiums increase to subsidize their care, I wait longer in the emergency room during a real emergency because they are there for routine care that most of them will not pay for, they are committing theft. It's as simple as that. Compassion and charitable giving can't take place if you're being forced to give against your will. Mexico and South America are like the alcaholic uncle who lives on your couch and won't get his own place. When my charitable contribution can come with strings that force positive changes in these dysfunctional countries, I'll donate willingly. Until then, these people are here violating the law when they should be in their home country, making it a better place to live. It really urks me when they chose to break up their families because they someone gets legal status and the job they can steal from an American here is more important to them than going home and being with their families. Then they blame American immigration laws for breaking up their families. If they all went home and stayed there, the market would adjust. The pay would go up and Americans would do those jobs.

How many of you pay the "use" tax on your state tax return? That is the sales tax on anything you bring in from out of state, or have shipped to you without the sales tax being charged?

You don't? That would make you a tax evader. Does your outrage over lawbreakers extend to yourself? Didn't think so.

Azsteve detailed all the ways in which undocumented immigrants cost him money. He neglected to mention all the ways large and small that they save at least some of us money. They can be abused in working conditions and pay, and can't go to the state labor commission for help. They can't vote. They can't even apply for most jobs. They pay most of the taxes that legal residents do: tobacco taxes, alcohol, gasoline, general sales tax, real estate (usually through their rent, just like all renters do).

They don't pay income tax, Medicare or SS tax. OTOH, they are not eligible for Medicare, SS, and they make so little they won't owe any income tax anyway. In fact, were they legal, they would qualify for the Earned Income Credit. Since they are illegals we benefit from their labor done for a low wage, and no payment from tax dollars of the Earned Income Credit, which can amount to a fair piece of change for a poor working family.

Being an illegal immigrant is basically a crime of paperwork. It is not a crime against other people, or against property.

Meanwhile, tax evasion is a white collar property crime. Why so much hyperbolic vitriol about the so-called illegals? Why so little about illegal Asian immigrants, who often work in restaurants and massage parlors? Or illegal Canadian immigrants? Yes, there are some, though probably more Americans illegally in Canada. And why no outrage over the tax evaders buying computers and televisions tax free?

Yes, I know those of us in states with no sales tax are not evading sales tax. My point is that calling people who didn't send in their sales tax "tax evaders" is hyperbolic. Yes, immigration violations are a problem, but the level of vitriol from some people are seems way out of proportion to the actual damage they are causing to social order.

Btw, in Brazil on my mission, couples cohabitating as married who couldn't marry because of Brazilian divorce laws, were allowed to be baptized and get TRs. That is another crime of paperwork, so LDS Inc has a precedent for overlooking paperwork crimes if the people are otherwise living good lives. Does anyone here think LDS Inc should excommunicate such couples?

We need a sense of proportion to temper the outrage.

Thank you, Brother of Jerry

I thought this post was going to be about what rich tithe-payers can get away with, like big-time tax cheating and infidelity and not cleaning the bathrooms...

Illegal immigrents do pay federal income taxes on their income. At least the ones who want to become citizens do. Paying an indeterminant amount in hopes it's enough is a part of the game the government plays against them. Anyone can go down to any IRS office and apply for a tax payer identification number. Everyone who is not a terrorist and who applies for one is granted one. It's just like any social security number except the first three digits are 999 and the number doesn't come with any right to work or to have any worker's rights. With that number, they pay income taxes, get mortgages, apply for benefits, etc. Some day when they make their bid to become citizens, their history of working illegally and paying taxes on that income plays in their favor. In the book 'As a Man Thinkest' James Allen talks about the oppressor and the oppressed being "cooperators in ignorance". If they're going to be paying taxes, they should be able to have rights and to vote (no taxation without representation). But illegal aliens should have neither. The oppression is wrong. Their coming to the US rather than fixing the problems in their own countries is wrong. Minimizing illegal actions by calling them only crimes on paper is an immoral position to take. I do pay use taxes. Why can't there be a Mexican dream? Why can't the only so-called true church do things to really help these people, like teaching them how to fix their broken country? No, the church wants your money, the illegal aliens want your money. That's all they want. And no one wants to admit that both theft and exploitation are morally wrong. These people live in limbo instead of cleaning house in their own countries.