This question's been on my mind. What do you think? Are they aware that they are teaching falsehoods? Are they purposefully taking advantage of our faithful tithes? Are they conspiratorial con-men, or innocent idiots?

A mix of both, I believe. It's a powerful meme and I think some are capable of believing it all their lives. The Mormon technology of belief maintenance is pretty well developed. I also think some of the smarter ones know it's a fraud, but rationalize. They think it's still good for members. And it might be, for some.

I've thought about this a lot and I think some know and some don't. I've never thought that Monson ever bore a strong testimony of J.S., Book of Mormon, etc. While Richard G. Scott bares a really strong testimony I've always thought, and he won't remarry because he loved his wife so much...if I knew it was a fraud I'd re-marry some young babe like Oaks did...who knows.

I think Monson has to know, I mean, he ain't seen no Jesus. But to me, even now I believe that some of them still might believe it in some very weird twisted and strange line of reasoning.

I honestly believe that Dieter knows it's a fraud. He was even inactive at one point in his adult life.

Of course Monson knows it's a fraud.

He KNOWS he doesn't talk to god.

No one talks to god.

The reason is obvious.

Yes, they are undoubtedly aware that it is all a fraud and always has been. But if you are at the top of the hierarchy, its a pretty nice and comfortable lifestyle.

Hinkley knew it was a fraud. He tried to let everyone know without directly saying it was false. He said it was either true or false with no middle ground. There is a load of middle ground. So think for yourself and realize it is false.

He said he was sustained as the president and did not include being a prophet. Being the prophet was false.

Members becoming gods was not doctrine.

Polygamy was not doctrinal.

How much more do you have to hear to realize he was trying to tell the world it was false without just coming out and saying it!

Just leave the cult with out regrets... The not a prophet gave you enough reasons.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2013 08:42AM by oldklunker.

Interesting theory. Can anyone give support to this claim aside from the Grant Palmer article?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2013 10:42AM by earlyrm.

There are some here, including me, who spoke with Hinckley and can confirm: HE DEFINITELY KNEW IT WAS NOT TRUE.

What did he say in particular that showed he knew? Apologies if you've explained this in the past.

Read my bio.

I think that most, if not all of the GAs are under contracts with the church that would ruin them financially if they ever speak out against the church. Then there's the second anointing. If you deny the holy ghost then there's no forgiveness in either this life or in the next life. If the church is willing to routinely threaten to cut the throats of of hundreds of thousands of their loyal members for nothing more than revealing a secret handshakes from the temple, who knows what kinds of threats these poor bastards are under? It' difficult enough getting those who went through the pre-1990 temple ceremony to come forward non-anonymously, for fear of the "penalties". If you're a so-called Apostle in this cult, who knows what you've been threatened with?

The threat of the unpardonable sin is only effective if a person believes the Church is true.

As for the "contracts" issue, it is not nearly the issue that some people suggest. You can't bind someone to a contract that forces them to believe in a Church or religious theology, or to prevent them for leaving that Church/theology. There really isn't much in the way of contracts that can lock GA's into the "faith".

This is a hard question. I've seen enough dishonesty from Jeffery R. Holland to assume that he believes differently than what he says. I've also got to assume that given the financial involvement of the Church in the business sector, that many of the Twelve/Fifteen, are also aware. Still, there are a lot of unknowns. I can't imagine that they got to where they are without being devout believers at some point in their lives.

Erick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> This is a hard question. I've seen enough
> dishonesty from Jeffery R. Holland to assume that
> he believes differently than what he says.

yah when Jeffy was pressed on the issue instead of relying on his unshakable conviction of the knowledge of his testimony as special witness of Christ, he deferred to his Ivy League education in some desperate attempt to shore up his failing shattered credibility. His Ivy league school probabaly wishes Holland would shut up.

In my own TBM family, testimony was based on spiritually derived knowledge that held the same level OR BETTER than that of first experience. WHen I was on my mission my mission pres started up with all this faith based crap. I thought it was pretty retrograde for those of us that believed we had a full on testimony. Of course, looking back I can now see that my Mission Pres. was just re spouting the same new watered down crap that Gordon Hinckley was already rolling with at the time. My MP was just going with the popular flow of LDS leadership in hopes of winning favor and being promoted to GA.

Looking back, I dont think my mission president really believed, he was just so immersed and so vested in the LDS Inc business system ( he had worked for LDS Inc his entire career) that it was impossible and un worthwhile to him to even think of anything else.

Yah MORmONISM is a great deal for an MORmON insider who is set up with "THE" church as they live a life of MORmON privilege. but for a regular member who feeds these parasites with their regular member blood to keep their extravagant MORmON elitist world turning, ITS NOT SUCH A GOOD DEAL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIkVNWHT-IA

Earlyrm,

I think you're kinda new here, so you may have missed this the first couple of times it's been mentioned. You might want to take a look at this to see if it helps influence your opinion at all: http://mormonthink.com/grant9.htm

You can learn more about Grant here if you need some "character references": http://www.mormonthink.com/grantpalmer.htm

It has to be true. Look how much the church has BLESSED their lives. (STINKS for everyone else, but not their problem.)

How can something be BAD if it's been so GOOD to them?

Many con artists and similar fraudsters actually start to believe in their own created delusion. The human mind is easily manipulated due to our evolved emotional system.

There are many cases in psychiatry where people will still believe in their delusions even when presented with obvious facts to the otherwise.

The leaders more than likely know more about the fraud they are trying to shovel down members throats than we want to believe. We don't want to believe humans can do this sort thing to others. They rationalize the fraud by thinking that life is better in the delusion than living a natural mortal life. Clearly, humans around the world also want the delusion more than understanding that our lives are only for this time on earth. Religion is a very powerful weapon against the seemingly unfair way life can be for many of us.

Agreed. I was married to a narcissist and I'm somewhat familiar how they operate. I believe that the 15 old guys are narcissists. Narcissists recognize and admire other narcissists and then offer them leadership positions.

Narcissists do believe their own delutions. They develop a mental AND emotional connection to their beliefs. They are con men that con others and con themselves. They are extremly close minded and have to protect their mental and emotional connections to the cult at all costs.

You see, a narcissist is never wrong, didn't you know. They will take their superiority down to the grave with themselves. They live to be right, superior, to convice others of their rightness and superiority. Asking a narcissist to admit they were wrong would be like asking them to cut off their own leg.

When you have a church run by narcissists, it will in reality be a cult, full of non empathetic leaders. They don't give two sh*ts about the members, only that they get praise and can control and take advantage of the masses. They don't care that millions of members have been hurt by the cult and have left the cult. Damage to members self esteem through guilt and shame and pressure and punishment. Damage to members finacial lives. Damage to members relationships. They just go on promoting their cultic, one size fits all, outdated mormon ideology.

The only thing you can do with dealing with a narcissist or a narcissistic organization is to walk away before it is too late.

Satan Claus, thanks for pointing to Grant Palmer at MormonThink.

Anyone who is suspect to "contracts" that GA's sign (especially the 1Qof70 and the top 15) might find this post from Kori interesting:

Excerpt from: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,775994,776120

“My dad was a church employee for 20 years before he left. I myself did a bit of consulting for them 15 years ago. This is what I have learned myself:

“Intellectual reserve, the legal proprietary arm of the church, makes you sign a contract. You cannot disclose what you did for them, how much you were paid or that you were hired as a contractor (I was). You cannot keep copies of the work, talk or publish it, it is owned it its entirety by the church. General authorities (I don't know of this applies to 2nd quorum of the 70's) sign over their property over to a trust, if you violate your contract they keep your property.

“What I have researched and heard from other ex- leaders:

“Since the time of BY, the church "lends" money to GA's for personal projects. This money is interest free and does not have to be repaid (this is for legal, tax and doctrinal reasons) if you tow the line. If you step out of line it becomes due and it is a lien on your property. Any income from sitting on boards, as director, consultant, etc- which is what the 12 spend most of their time doing, you keep, if you leave, since you are a representative of the church on those boards, you lose and may have to pay back. of course you loose your "living expenses" (60-120K), your access to church property for personal use (Hawaii, Florida, Europe, etc.).

“This is how a "humble" lifelong seminary teacher (BKP) or meager church employee (GBH) can end up as millionaires and pass on significant wealth to family members. If you step out of line, it’s all gone and you are in serious legal trouble.”

EDIT: I just re-read the entire post http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,775994,776120. You can't make comments on it as it is closed, but still definitely worth reading.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2013 12:13PM by jiminycricket.

i just read all the links in this post and the other re: Julio Davila - omg. THEY do know...i've been learning about freemasonry and of course, we all know Joe was a mason and that he used their oath and symbol systems for the temple rites, but once you learn about the origins of freemasonry, the story all makes sense as to Joe's intentions with the morg and the origins of the mysogny and the phallic worship. what amazes me is that he clearly missed correctly identifying Osiris in the book of abraham scroll pics when "filling in the blanks"...he was crafty but not real smart.
once you open your mind to the truth, it all just starts flowing in; i used to think the that plan of salvation was amazing how it covered all the bases and made so much sense. now it really makes sense from the standpoint of how an egotistical mystic mason took a couple of books he read and masonry and created a world for himself where he could emulate, in a perverse way, Jesus Christ. he made himself a king, a martyr and he was worshipped. i used to think ppl were crazy when they would say that the mos worshipped Joe, but they did in the early church. and in a really gross way, they still do, i guess.
sorry for the rambling - i've only been out for a couple of years and have just recently allowed myself to explore info on the internet. i mailed my resignation off today. gonna be trippin on this for a while, i'm sure. good lord, this is disgusting...

Cheers and backslaps for you on opening your mind even though the Man Behind the Curtain said it was best if you kept it closed.

Long live thinking!

Anagrammy

This bothered me SO MUCH when I was finding my way out. I doubted myself constantly and it led to suicidal thoughts but never an actual plan. I thought there was something seriously wrong with me.

I've since moved on from that and know religion is BS. I'm pretty sure they're total frauds who perpetuate the system because they think the lesser beings need it. There may be a few who actually believe parts of it. I don't think any of them really believe the whole thing. Can they be that good at lying to themselves?

Yes. They talk about it, and are "allowed" to talk about it, thus proving they are aware of it (re: Marlin K. Jensen talk at USU last year, Hollands talk on the BOM, etc.).

You think L. Ron Hubbard thought he was a fraud? He laughed all the way to the bank.

I think they figure it out pretty quickly though i doubt they get a training packet pointing out the truth.

After listening to Hales at a stake conference a few years back, I was convinced he knew the first vision was a lie.

He spoke about how all the apostles have had the same witness of deity and experience just as Joseph Smith did.

So rather than testify of his own experience, he alluded to the deception TSCC teaches of the first vision. Using that reference, he then claimed he knew just the same way. To the believer, this is a claim of witnessing Christ. To the knowlegable, this is a roundabout truth that Hales knows its a lie.

Most all of them have made a similarly disclaimed claim. They strongly imply to the believer they have seen Christ, but never state it plainly so they have plausible deniability.

Gordon B. Hinkley always said that he didn't know. Throughout several years and several talks he actually said that.

http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/Hinckley_dontknow.htm

wow, y'all. how in the hell did we not get this earlier. 40+ years of this belief system..i really believed this. how many of us are walking around now kicking ourselves in the soul saying, hey dumbshit! what else do you believe? anagrammy, thank you! exmo bro - i hope that you have found a way to deal with those feelings, i completely understand. the last few years have been full of those thoughts for me and my dear sweet understanding husband has helped me through it and guided me to a different way of thinking that has actually allowed me to recognize truth - thus my sudden epiphany regarding these jerkoffs, esp Joe. i have actually had a 'discussion' with him outloud telling him what i feel about what he did. kind of made me feel better - sitting in my bathroom at 4am talking loudly to the the ceiling....hang in there exmo bro.
drilldoc - l ron hubbard? he's the scientologist dude, right? i loved the south park regarding that faith system..wow, right?!
elciz, dogblogger and foundoubt - thanks for the references, i'll get on researching them today :)
so, how in the heck do you all keep from attending fast and test meeting and getting up there are bearing your new found testimonies?? i'm so tempted its a constant thought...thoughts? experiences in that? i'd love to hear em. or for those of you in previous authority positions: what instruction were you given in case an apostate ended up speaking at the attn of the congregation??
thanks everyone, i appreciate this forum emmensly!
peace.

Sure. Just get up and say the Holy Spirit prompted you to share with them the truth about (say) the First Vision and then launch right in until they come and haul you out by the arms.

I have seen that done. It was awesome. Complete silence followed until the chorister started up.

Anagrammy

I remember TSM first gen conference as the president when he turned the corner to see the congregation. He had a look of despair on his face like he knew that he did not talk to god and had to face the church with that knowledge. I think at that point he knew something was wrong either with himself or the church.

But IMO I think most of them are not sure and leave the doubts as personal struggles and fall in line.

They all have to know that the history of the church is convoluted and can not be examined in depth publicly. The members would leave as fast as they gained 10% of their income.

I was a TBM at the time Bednar became an apostle. By the look on his face when he spoke, I could tell something was wrong. It was as if he were disappointed and shellshocked. He probably had a strong testimony before then, but on that day, he knew he didn't see Christ. For a long time, I thought about the look that he had and couldn't make sense of it. Now it makes perfect sense.

Holland must know, I mean since he's no dodo! That man is a freaking genius.

I've decided that the crankier they are, the more they know.

Nothing to back that up. Just my own theory.

I like this theory.

Just watch "American Greed" on CNBC after the market closes each day and you can see how Joseph Smith operated.

Last night, I watched another show about an older TBM who was looking for a date on LDSsingles.com. A guy from Montana defrauded her and others into thinking he had gold from Howard Hughes. She lost $250,000... She notified the FBI about the fraud and they caught him. Too bad she didn't also send the FBI about tscc at the same time for a lifetime of fraud.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2013 10:21PM by orange.

this video had over 10 K hits, so LDS INC had it pulled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q6B-ROmZ6A

"beneficial" for who? you MORmON ASSpostHOLE!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrB2nIsPajk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rxGQFELVlI

just trust the MORmON leadership because they are always honest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paox9gCXboo

Most of all never criticize MORmON leaders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKiatuYWIP8