So I was talking with a TBM the other day. For brevity's sake, it went something like this:
TBM: . . . so much perversion of the truth in the world!
me: I agree. Speaking of, where does it say obedience is the first law of heaven? I thought Jesus said in Matthew that loving God was first, then love your neighbor. I don't remember anything about obedience.
TBM: You're wrong. Obedience is the first LAW. Loving God is the first COMMANDMENT. Huge difference.
me: Um?
TBM: Huge difference. If you can't see it, you're blind.


Can some former (or current - TBM-at-heart perhaps?) TBM help me see the difference? A law is something you must do. A commandment is something you must do. Am I missing the distinction, or is it a thought stopping response to questioning the eternal veracity of the church?

This is from a "Elder Delaney's blog," a guy who looks like an old guy with clogged arteries. I was not sure whether or not he was quoting this or saying it in first-person. But it's revealing in that it is a blatant admission that you can't quote Jesus, because He was wrong. Since Jesus we've had people like Joseph Smith, and Joseph F. Smith, and Joseph Fielding Smith. You know--prophets, prophets who have changed and corrected our doctrines. How much success they gonna have mainstreaming Mormonism with this attitude?:



A well-intentioned but sadly misinformed teacher stood at the front of the room and blatantly taught a false and misleading doctrine. She said, in effect, that “love is the first law of heaven.” She even attempted to justify this false teaching by quoting from the words of Jesus:

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law…” (Matthew 22:37-40)

I was shocked and immediately stood to correct the teacher. (Being the presiding authority, it was my duty to correct false doctrine.) I kindly declared:

“Dearest sister, lest a false doctrine be sown into the hearts of these innocent ward members and grow and fester into a flawed belief, I feel I must correct you. You must not take offense, for the Book of Mormon clearly teaches us that only the wicked take the truth to be hard (1 Nephi 16:2-3). You have stated that love is the first law of heaven, but this is not so. We know from modern-day revelation that obedience is actually the first law of heaven.”

I then turned to the most recent copy of the Conference edition of the Ensign, which I always keep close at hand as a beacon of light to guide my actions, and read aloud from our beloved prophet’s talk entitled “Obedience Brings Blessings”:

“Obedience is the first law of heaven.” (see https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/obedience-brings-blessings)

The sister asked how this could be so, especially in light of the scripture that she had quoted (which purported to contain the words of Jesus). I answered her question with a few questions in return:

“Dearest sister, do you not believe that it is more important to follow a living prophet than a dead one? What is the purpose of continuing revelation if not to give us greater light and wisdom for our time? A true and living prophet who walks the earth today has taught in General Conference that obedience is the first law of heaven. Let us not be deceived. According to our Articles of Faith, we can only believe the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. Many errors have been introduced into the Bible by conspiring men. This is why we must follow the living prophet in order to know the truth. Do you think that God would contradict Himself? Of course not.”

Sometimes it's so hard to tell the difference between actual TBMs and parodies of them.

HAHAHA!--love this!

I think Delaney's satire. It really is hard to tell sometimes because the church is screwed up in so many ways.

Good to know. I don't know this guy Delaney, so I wanted to punch his lights out. If it's satire, then GOOD on him! He got me!

Delaney is def satire.

(and I would have been a nevermo in my younger years) I probably would have said something like, "Get thee hence, thou self-righteous little codpiece, and report to the principal! Please DO feel free to give your account of what has happened here. I think he will understand."

That's assuming (always dangerous) that the principal was not simply a LARGER codpiece.

I hope the dear sister ran as fast as she could from TSCC!

This should be a new entry in the Mormon dictionary:

"Love"--a false teaching of Jesus Christ inappropriately taught in the Holy Bible.

Really, right?

For people going the religious route, should they follow the words of Jesus or the Smith clan ?

oooooh, tough decision.
LOL.

So Satan was right!

So ask your TBM friend how was Satan's plan wrong if the first law of heaven is "Obedience"?

And non of this nonsense about him getting the credit is why he was wrong...because it worked out that Jesus got the credit and people worship him

Well, I guess one could make the case that a commandment isn't really a commandment unless obedience is expected. In other words, "OBEY these commandments."

Of course, in Mormonism, Obedience® really means, "Just do whatever we f##cking say, whether it's scriptural or not."

Obedience is the first law of Nazism and all other totalitarian cults.

Christ said the greatest law is love of God, and love of neighbor.
On those two laws hangs everything else.

Mormonism is a perversion.

If obedience is the first law of heaven, then heaven is the mother cult of them all. The Mormon version of heaven is, after all, just the pinnacle of what a cult can be.

Have fun in the CK Mormons. You too can get your planet, flood it, burn it, make people sacrifice their own children and perhaps give a few people boils, and plagues of frogs. You will make Mormon God very happy.

hehehehehehehe . . . .

Heaven doesn't have any laws. If so, the Mormons make them up as the go along because they don't know anything about it really.

All who knock shall enter... if there are any doors. Surely they are open.

M@t

heaven has laws ?

I suppose that technically, obedience to the First and second greatest commandments would be a prerequisite.

That said, much of the ministry of Christ in the NewTestament was to dispell the practice of obedience for the sake of obedience. Which was the greater law- to only walk a few counted steps on the Sabbath, or to heal the sick that was brought to him.

Sabbath was made for man, not man made for the Sabbath.

Were the purity laws more important than good behavior?

What goes into the mouth does not defile a man, but what comes out of it.

The religion had become a strict set of rules to the point of causing harm and insensitivity to the needs of the marginalized. We see this today in LDS,Inc. and in the Morridor.

Obedience to the first and second greatest commandments sometimes means stepping beyond the obedience fences put up by the institution. Doing so not only meets the needs of those less fortunate, but also gives or restores meaning to the original intent of the institution.

But returning to the subject of the Law, Matthew 25 reminds us that to not love our neighbor or God, is to disobey the Law and the Commandments.

Elder What's-his-face Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> much of the ministry of Christ in the
> NewTestament was to dispell the practice of
> obedience for the sake of obedience. Which was the
> greater law- to only walk a few counted steps on
> the Sabbath, or to heal the sick that was brought
> to him.
>
> Sabbath was made for man, not man made for the
> Sabbath.
>
> Were the purity laws more important than good
> behavior?
>
> What goes into the mouth does not defile a man,
> but what comes out of it.
>
> The religion had become a strict set of rules to
> the point of causing harm and insensitivity to the
> needs of the marginalized. We see this today in
> LDS,Inc. and in the Morridor.
>
> Obedience to the first and second greatest
> commandments sometimes means stepping beyond the
> obedience fences put up by the institution. Doing
> so not only meets the needs of those less
> fortunate, but also gives or restores meaning to
> the original intent of the institution.
>

Beautifully put.

I don't know that it's a Law or a Commandment anywhere, but for me personally, Freedom plus Responsibility is a very useful Combination of Words.

Responsibility itself is an interesting conceptual mixture of elements. It can reference whatever the current societal/institutional norms happen to be, but adds in I think definitely elements of love and also individual intelligence/conscience, which makes it more dynamic and healthier as a guiding concept than Obedience.

Say to the TBM: (no) YOU are wrong. How can we love God without loving each other? (don't give him a chance to answer as he thinks about that). Isn't obeying also referring to the SSV? (Thinking). Then forget about it being the first law of heaven and ponder rather about it being the first law of earth - in other words, if we don't respect each other upon this earth, if we can't be brothers on this earth, no matter what, there is no use discussing heaven. You say church first, then brotherhood. I say brotherhood first, God[Goddess]hood follows.

I am with you on that one. Beautiful turnabout. Makes it all look different.

And what parent isn't excited when they see their child finally thinking for themselves instead of needing to be told everything. Isn't that the goal?

No. For some parents OBEDIENCE is priority No. 1. Think for oneself? Horrors. Better memorize the Articles of Faith and the BoM verses. Don't think what they mean. Just know exactly the words. Obey. Don't think. Obey. Don't think. Be a sheeple.

Yeah, rhgc. When I asked the question, "what parent isn't excited when they see their child finally thinking for themselves instead of needing to be told everything?" I already knew the answer was: many Mormon parents. They really should replace all the statues of Moroni with a Golden Sheep.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2014 12:44PM by blueorchid.

I knew you knew.

Satire or not, as a lifetime TBM, I have had many Mormons say those same things to me, over the years.

1. Obedience is the first law of Heaven. (Not love)

2. A living prophet is better than dead prophets, and the newest Mormon prophet supersedes the old (Biblical) prophets.

My reply to these ideas, was that I still believe in The Bible, and that I hope my religion (Mormonism) believes in the Bible, as it claims it does!

Turns out, it doesn't. It isn't even a Christian religion.

Oh yes. Mormonism uses the Bible; Old and New Testament and other scriptures to teach this doctrinal principle.

Lots of references. Here are a few:

Doctrinal Outline
A.
Obedience is the first law of heaven.

1. It was decreed in heaven that all blessings are predicated upon obedience (see D&C 130:20–21; Deuteronomy 11:8, 26–27).

2. We came to earth to prove our willingness to obey (see Abraham 3:24–25; D&C 98:14).

3. Obedience must be voluntary (see Abraham 3:25–26; Helaman 14:30–31).

4. Commandments are given to us because God loves us and wants us to become like Him (see Deuteronomy 6:24–25; D&C 25:15; 3 Nephi 12:48).

5. Our obedience to God’s commandments is an expression of our love for Him (see John 14:15, 21, 23; 1 John 5:3; D&C 42:29).

6. It is important to obey God even when we may not fully understand the commandment (see Moses 5:5–6; 1 Nephi 3:7).

7. The Lord chastens the Saints because He loves them (see Hebrews 12:6; D&C 95:1; Helaman 15:3; Revelation 3:19).

8. We should obey God rather than man (see Acts 5:29).



It's about following Christ who set the pattern
B.
The Lord promises great blessings to those who obey His commandments.


This is a short excerpt from a long list of additional comments and scriptures on the official lds web site.

It's all about following God and Christ.
It fit right in with my Christian upbringing also.

You need to add a number 9:

9: The leadership of the LDS church speaks directly for God.


See the problem, number 8 is directly contradicted by number 9. Number 8 only works if you have a God who is provably real who speaks to you directly and clearly.

In truth that stands for all religions. No matter what faith you practice, if it has a god there is going to be some man in front of you claiming to speak for god. The people who wrote the bible were men. Jesus, if he even existed, was a man. Some claim he was more but there is 0 evidence of that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2014 03:32PM by jesuswantsme4asucker.

1. TSCC adds a lot of non-Christ commandments.
2. Re speaking to God:
So here's to dear old Boston
Home of the beans and the cod
Where the Cabots speak only to Lowells
and the Lowells speak only to God