Ive been following Lindsey's blog for years and I think he's about to lose his mind. Going crazy like Nibley when he was trying to prove the Book of Abraham. Honestly I can't even read through a Lindsey blog post in it's entirety anymore. it's a bunch of maniacal Mormon thinking; making connections that just aren't there. This is a special kind of mental illness and I think it's affecting many Mormons out there.
Anyone else out the watching Lindsey lose his mind?
ETA: Jeff's last name is actually spelled "LindsAy. Try not to let the misspelling distract you too much from the content and thought provoking dialog within this thread.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 10:35AM by brook.
My issue is actually that I have not been following as long as you and thus I wonder what it is that they are seeing that I am missing.
I feel the same way about Daniel Peterson.
I listen to Jeff Lindsey, and Daniel Peterson and Mike Ash and I keep reading and listening and they seem to see something that makes it all fit and yet for whatever reason when I am listening to them it sort seems to...yet when I stop reading or listening to them there is just nothing left.
One of my favorite talks is from President Faust who basically said something about "You can't go forever on borrowed light."
I really do believe in what he said there...we all have to find our 'light' for ourselves...and have enough of it on our own to make it.
This is part of the problem though...for me I am a spiritual chameleon at times. When I listen to Lindsey and Peterson and Ash I almost feel their 'light' (using the term loosely here) but when I turn it off that 'light' or whatever it is seems to go with it.
Now with Polygamy starting to resurface as an acceptable 'lifestyle choice' I am curious to see how the church will dance around that doctrine once the fragmented groups start to try and return to the fold so to speak.
Anyway...there may be much I do not know or understand as I am a convert who never attended the Temple. I have read much and miss the community of church...but as I am going through a divorce...I think I'd miss a Lemonade stand at the moment (Lack of support system).
Maybe it's apologetics in general that seems disjointed. I try to understand Jeff's point, but I think what the problem is, is that he doesn't have a complete point. It doesn't go anywhere!
For me it's interesting to research a faulty Mormon topic, let's say for example, Book of Abraham. I want to learn what each side believes is a good argument for or against their defense. I know Jeff is an intelligent guy, so why doesn't his evidence ever add up? Why can't he make a sound argument for himself? But yet he keeps trying, over and over. It's like, what's the definition on insanity? -Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
Anyway, I'm sure my frustration with Jeff would the same with any of the others; Peterson, Ash, etc.
It the result of long years living with the "double bind" mixed messages where the evidence is overwhelming the LDS Church is a fraud, and yet the conditioning is to strong to break.
The alternative, "going crazy" is apparent by symptoms involving distorted thinking, denial, projections, and so-called "cognitive dissonance."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 03:20PM by SL Cabbie.
Elder What's-his-face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Apologetics is like watching a Lawyer explain how > it is possible that the dog ate his homework.
Brooke wrote: " I know Jeff is an intelligent guy, so why doesn't his evidence ever add up? Why can't he make a sound argument for himself?"
The problem with apologists is that they have their minds made up - often for them, as in the case of BIC's - and are merely looking for confirmation. That's why their reasoning is so contorted. The arguments have to fit the conclusion.
To make matters worse, their belief is not just a belief, it's their identity. While all human beings are vulnerable to cognitive biases and mistakes, true believers don't even get to the point where they can fully assess the arguments before them. A critical argument is not perceived as an argument at all but as a threat to their identity. When this happens, their cognitive abilities shut down and they go into survival mode: they either run, freeze or lash out.
In my experience, it's impossible to penetrate such a defense. The only way it can come down is from within.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 10:01AM by rt.
"A critical argument is not perceived as an argument at all but as a threat to their identity."
Very true, and until I married a TBM, I had no exposure to anyone whose identity was so enmeshed with a belief system (and a rather silly one at that).
This is the keystone of mormon psychology: merged identity.
"To make matters worse, their belief is not just a belief, it's their identity."
Good point. I realized that problem early on in debating Mopologists: if they come to conclude that the Mormon story is false, that forces them to make drastic changes in their lives---perhaps even involving careers, marriages, abodes, and relationships with extended family. So it's easier for them to maintain the status quo.
The more evidence against Mormonism with which they're presented, the more they're forced to come up with even more ridiculous apologetics in order to keep believing. Like their silly arguments about BOM DNA and the BOA, for instance.
I can empathize with them, because for the first 40 years of my life, my identity revolved completely around the church too. And it took me several more years after going semi-active to fully de-program myself from the mindset.
When my faith crumbled, I spent the next 9 months studying, and hoping to regain it. And I stuck mostly to LDS-friendly sources, and apologetic stuff like FARMS and Nibley. I also had some weird experiences with emotional responses to testimony-bearing, while simultaneously thinking "this is b.s." There were times when I wondered if I was losing my grip on reality.
I finally realized that if I was to accept that the church was true, I would have to give up reason, ignore evidence, and twist reality. The guys who make a career out of doing that are probably messing with their own heads. They certainly messed with mine.
I haven't read Jeff Lindsay, and I don't intend to. That kind of thinking hurts my head.
Wow...you are talking my language here friend. Especially the part about having weird experiences with emotional responses to testimony-bearing and the simultaneous "this is BS" response.
Unbelievable...that is exactly what I have experienced...and it is that sort of thing that has left me in some strange form of a mind fuck.
It has left me without confidence in my own ability to discern what is reality.
I have purposely avoided visiting my friends from my old ward during my present divorce...as I am certain their glowing testimonies would make me reevaluate my position.
Not that my position is in error...but purely due to the fact that at the moment my position is not as satisfying or as encouraging as theirs.
This whole process has done a number on my self confidence. It is hard to be confident in yourself if you feel so inept at determining bullshit from truth.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2014 07:26PM by Susan I/S.
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.
They are like magicians, their business depends on misdirection and illusion. Getting a factual answer out of them is like trying to nail JellO to a wall.
The sad thing is that some of it could be salvaged, some of it could easily be rationalized and justified. But the church refuses to admit that the BOA was made up on the spot, and that the BOM is non-historical and highly exaggerated. So Jeff Lindsay, who seems to be a decent guy, wastes his effort, credibility, and good feelings on a couple of crazy fictional books that really don't do anything for him.
Like I would say to my wife. The truth doesn't matter to you. You have already decided. Even it is right in front of you, it has no bearing what-so-ever. You have already decided what is true and that's it. End of discussion.
Absolute truth doesn't matter to people like your wife. What matters is that it works for her. That makes it "true" enough for her. Relative truth is more important.
It comes down to honesty and integrity. Over time if they are an honest person and have the integrity to do the right thing they will admit....they were wrong.
I give a big shout out to Kerry Shirts the backyard professor. He fought the good fight for a long time but his honesty and integrity finally were more important then trying to protect the name of the church.