There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing." (link)

Who said that? The LD$ Church's leading obfuscator, Pres. Gordon Hinckley, in Gen. Conf. a decade ago (ref. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/04/loyalty?lang=eng).

And from Jan. 2012: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is losing a record number of its membership. A new report quotes an LDS general authority who said more members are falling away today than any time in the past 175 years." (Ref. http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx)

Substantially thanks to online info. sources such as RfM, "a record number" of Latter-day Saints have learned that Mo-ism is a fraud and correctly concluded that the dishonest LD$ Church is nothing.

Thanks, Gordo ("who is dead"), for pointing that out!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2013 08:05PM by Susan I/S.

I remember the original talk he gave when he said this and I remember thinking, he knows it's a fraud and he's trying to convince us that it's not.

I remember having a really sick in the pit of your stomach feeling.

Yes Gordo thanks for pointing out the obvious. I once looked at that quote a different way than i do now though haha

He was right about that.

I learned last year about the Hoffman ordeal that took place in the mid 80's. The five GA's in the photo look pathetic:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.utlm.org/images/newsletters/115/115cover_hofmannchurchleaders.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no115.htm&h=466&w=700&sz=157&tbnid=YEilQACxjJBIKM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmark%2Bhoffman%2Bkimball%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=mark+hoffman+kimball&usg=__-RGc9S66YSsI4_1t3x87yPUnxfw=&docid=5Vp_vXuKPUrdJM&sa=X&ei=GbFxUcD9CKiAiwLRl4GoCw&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAQ&dur=1

Thanks Gordon for the quote: it is a fraud - Heil Hinckley!

The comments in that article are great!

I think that one of the greatest harms GBH did with that quote is that he obfuscated any sort of middle ground with Mormonism. He is pretending like it doesn't exist.

The crazy thing is that Exmormons are much more prone to believe the words of GBH than they are to realize that there are many paths in Mormonism and that there are people on the spectrum between exmo and TBM.

Everybody is different.

GBH was trying to get tithing dollars. He was not correct in any way.

I worked in the Temple for ten years as a member of temple security staff. I was mainly on the nightshift, completely alone and in total and soul charge of the Temple. Believe me, the Mormon church is a total sham, a multi-billion dollar hoax and delusion. There is no reality, no Jesus, it is a spiritual vacuum, a monumental fraud and deception through and through. Ten years of painstakingly walking through all areas and floors of the Temple convinced me of that.

I would love to read more details of your experience, and why being on the security staff helped you to learn this.

I would like to hear more of your story too. You were in a situation that most members don't experience. So many things are with held from the everyday member.

I do resent the implication though that the church equals the kingdom of God. The LDS church is always trying to hijack God, Jesus etc. and saying that following the Mormon church equals following God and rejecting the Mormon church equals rejecting God and turning your back on Jesus. That's bullcrap and insulting to every other believer - not just Christians but anyone who believes in a God of any religion. There is also the possibility that turning toward God would make you want to reject Mormonism with it's selfishness, lies, lip service caring for the poor and endless legality that teaches you to judge and look down on the rest of humanity. Maybe the church is a fraud because it's turned against God not that people turn against God by rejecting a fraud.

On the off chance that the BOM is a shamanic or channeled work, Jacob 5:43-45 describes the current situation.

43 And behold this last, whose branch hath withered away, I did plant in a agood spot of ground; yea, even that which was choice unto me above all other parts of the land of my vineyard.

44 And thou beheldest that I also cut down that which cumbered this spot of ground, that I might plant this tree in the stead thereof.

45 And thou beheldest that a apart thereof brought forth good fruit, and a part thereof brought forth wild fruit; and because I plucked not the branches thereof and cast them into the fire, behold, they have overcome the good branch that it hath withered away.

Thank you.

It was so interesting to me how the BOM would rant about 'secret combinations"

and

"swearing by your head"

"having secret signs and passwords"

"having these things that they might get gain and cover up their thefts and adulteries and their murders"

That everyone promised to cover for each other.

Why? so they could get gain,power and influence

That anyone who revealed their secret plans and plots would be found and put to death.

They were the MOST EVIL in the BOM: the Gadianton Robbers

Yet the church has oaths, secret signs and passwords, and they cover for each other. By their own works they show themselves.

So besides Hoffman, and pediophiles that have been covered up, there are a lot of 'dead bodies' and 'smoking guns' in the current church.

Either it is of God or it is not.

NOT

I finally faced the matter. I picked fraud.

Yes, the church is truly a fraud.

In all the times I bore my testimony, I could never bring myself to say the church is true. I tried, but it felt wrong. I had no problem saying that God lives.

Isn't it interesting that as Mormons, members are constantly urged to bear testimony that the church is true.

It's like people are trying to convince themselves of something that, deep down, is highly suspect.

Whenever I encountered this 'argument' I couldn't help thinking of this famous quote (altered slightly):

"The prophet doth protest too much, methinks..."

By making the question of staying or leaving such a rigidly black and white issue he did far more harm to retention efforts, especially by using such strong language as "fraud". Holy You've Got My Undivided Attention Now, Batman!

By upping the stakes so precipitously he gave no comfortable place to reside for NOMs (who might have continued to pay tithing, and enjoy the 'cultural' aspect of remaining an active member) and no reason for TBMs to temper their intolerance.

Clearly, the man was a genius. <turns sarcasm button off>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2013 11:17AM by frogdogs.

..."either the Church is true, or it is a fraud."

An interesting statement by Gordon. He's admitting the possibility that the church is a fraud.

So a reasonable person must consider the evidence for both options and decide which is the most likely of the two:

a known con-man committing fraud

or

a known con-man seeing numerous resurrected beings, angels with swords, golden plates etc.

Because if one is true, the other can't be.

Decisions, decisions...

Mormonism (and all religion) is a culture that advances a particular world view. A culture cannot be true or false, it simply just IS.

By attempting to make the cultural phenomenon called mormonism a fact, to be proved or disproved, GBH and others have already lost.

Those who don't recognize this, will bind themselves with circular reasoning for their entire lives. The damage caused by beliefs such as this is deep and real. Recovery is a long path and involves more than just adjusting beliefs.

Black and white thinking is a sure sign of a cult.

FRAUD!!!


Thanks for making me THINK even when I was TBM, Mr. "I don't know that we teach that" Wrinkley-Hinkley!!