While many Christian churches can now, in the light of the massive and completely overwhelming evidence, claim that Noah's ark was an allegory - Mormons can't. How else could Noah get from Missouri to the middle east as Mormons claim?

Clearly the flood could not have been either global or local as you have pointed out. However, there is no official mormon position on whether the flood was global or local. Due to mormons not knowing whether the flood was global or local, the church doctrine might be true, and the science might be true. Therefore the church has no need to deny the science or change the doctrine. Since there is no need for the church to change their doctrine, they can continue to teach a global flood at church. Seems logical enough doesn't it?

Localized event would be a false sectarian baptism of sprinkling.

You are right! A local flood is an apostate earth-ordinance.

"FLOOD WAS BAPTISM OF EARTH. Now a word as to the reason for the flood. It was the baptism of the earth, and that had to be by immersion. If the water did not cover the entire earth, then it was not baptized, for the baptism of the Lord is not pouring or sprinkling." (Smith, Joseph Fielding, Jr., Doctrines of Salvation (Salt Lake City: BookCraft, 1955), Vol.2, p.320)

Found it on Mormonthink.

...that instead of the flood waters being 29,000 feet deep that maybe the whole earth was covered in something like a water shrink wrap, thus meeting the full immersion requirement. God could have made something like that happen. Um, sure, why not.

maybe it was steam cleaned. :)

And the ark was a sauna!

Sorry "Green Potato" but there is an official Mormon position on a Global Flood.

See http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm wherein it states "The LDS church teaches that the flood of Noah was a literal global and worldwide event, and that the flood was the Earth's baptism."
This is backed up with scripture, quotes from LDS prophets and articles from The Ensign.

Just another example of their false, man made religion.

Sorry anointed one, but I am right and you are wrong:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood

Surprisingly little qualifies as official mormon doctrine.

Isn't it amazing how defenders of the church are so quick to discredit its Prophets, Seers, and Revelators?

No, I am right. I was quoting church doctrine.

FAIR is an apostate organization that opposes church doctrine (e.g. limited geography theory; death before the fall; location of Garden of Eden; Lamanites are the American Indians, Polynesians etc.).

Scott Gordon should be excommunicated for teaching that which is contrary to church doctrine. He teaches the opposite of the LDS prophets in order to defend their ridiculous doctrines and teachings. So does Daniel Peterson, Michael Ash et al.

Green Potato, I do realize your comment was probably made 'tongue in cheek'.

Incidentally, one GA tried the 'what is church doctrine' on me, when trying to answer the 'no death before Adam fell' issue. After he did his homework he admitted it was official church doctrine.

So, modus operandi for FAIR and mopologetics in general is (1) change the doctrine to the opposite of what the brethren and scriptures say (2) blind us with pseudo science (3) blind us with high faluting scholarly sounding nonsense (4) ad hominem attacks (their favourite).

Again, as I said in another post, basing your faith on religious dogmas could cause it to crumble. The "kiss" principle is a good one when it comes to religion.

Good advice, doc. Any printer knows that "You can tell a good printer by his kiss." Letterpress printers leave a good impression.

I use the Judge Judy principle: "If it doesn't make sense, it isn't true" You could actually apply that to the whole church history, not just the flood.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2013 12:31PM by brett.

The other problem with the localized flood apologetic is that it cannot be squared with God's covenant in Genesis 9 that there will never be another flood like Noah's. If it were just a localized flood then God is a liar, since we have had many localized floods over the past 4,000 years since Noah's mythical global flood.



"...neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth."

"And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh."

Moses 8:26-30
"And the Lord said: I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man and beast... The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth."


Ether 13:2
"after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord"

I had a young earther try to tell me that the great flood is why you see more advanced animals stratigraphically above less advanced animals in the fossil record. See, as he explained it, the more advanced animals could run faster so they made it further up the hill before drowning than the less advanced.

I know, I know. It makes your brain hurt. The fact that they can fit so many fallacies and plain BS is such a small space is always amazing.

And that's why you find the more advanced plants higher in the stratigraphic record -- they could run faster. Makes brain hurt even more.

That's what flowerpots are for. They keep the plants from running all over the house. It's also a good idea to keep a vase as a grisly reminder to stand still and behave.

Batsheet crazy.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1999/11/05/dinosaurs-and-the-bible


The story we have all heard from movies, television, newspapers, and most magazines and textbooks is that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. According to evolutionists, the dinosaurs “ruled the Earth” for 140 million years, dying out about 65 million years ago. However, scientists do not dig up anything labeled with those ages. They only uncover dead dinosaurs (i.e., their bones), and their bones do not have labels attached telling how old they are. The idea of millions of years of evolution is just the evolutionists’ story about the past. No scientist was there to see the dinosaurs live through this supposed dinosaur age. In fact, there is no proof whatsoever that the world and its fossil layers are millions of years old. No scientist observed dinosaurs die. Scientists only find the bones in the here and now, and because many of them are evolutionists, they try to fit the story of the dinosaurs into their view.

Other scientists, called creation scientists, have a different idea about when dinosaurs lived. They believe they can solve any of the supposed dinosaur mysteries and show how the evidence fits wonderfully with their ideas about the past, beliefs that come from the Bible.

The Bible, God’s very special book (or collection of books, really), claims that each writer was supernaturally inspired to write exactly what the Creator of all things wanted him to write down for us so that we can know where we (and dinosaurs) came from, why we are here, and what our future will be. The first book in the Bible—Genesis—teaches us many things about how the universe and life came into existence. Genesis tells us that God created everything—the Earth, stars, sun, moon, plants, animals, and the first two people.

Although the Bible does not tell us exactly how long ago it was that God made the world and its creatures, we can make a good estimate of the date of creation by reading through the Bible and noting some interesting passages:
1.
God made everything in six days. He did this, by the way, to set a pattern for mankind, which has become our seven day week (as described in Exodus 20:11). God worked for six days and rested for one, as a model for us. Furthermore, Bible scholars will tell you that the Hebrew word for day used in Genesis 1, can only mean an ordinary day in this context.

2.
We are told God created the first man and woman—Adam and Eve—on Day Six. Many facts about when their children and their children’s children were born are given in Genesis. These genealogies are recorded throughout the Old Testament, up until the time of Christ. They certainly were not chronologies lasting millions of years.


As you add up all of the dates, and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth almost 2000 years ago, we come to the conclusion that the creation of the Earth and animals (including the dinosaurs) occurred only thousands of years ago (perhaps only 6000!), not millions of years. Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years.

<<Scientists only find the bones in the here and now, and because many of them are evolutionists, they try to fit the story of the dinosaurs into their view.>>

I love how they always accuse "scientists" of doing exactly what they have been doing for thousands of years. And then go on to exactly that;

"Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years."

You're right. Batshit crazy. And hypocritical. And just plain deceptive and stupid.

I just don't understand why people don't take bible scholars seriously...

Remember that they also believe that there had never been a rainbow or even rain before Noah's flood. ID-10Ts.

I have always wondered where all the water WENT? Is there some sort of drain hole in the poles and all the water drained into the center of the earth? Which we know is hollow, so I guess that is where hollow earth got its oceans.

The story we have all heard from movies, television, newspapers, and most magazines and textbooks is that Jesus lived, died, and was resurrected about 2000 years ago. According to Christians, Jesus “Performed many miracles, and wonders, in front of thousands of supposed witnesses” for many years,before eventually being crucified when he was in his 30's. However, Christians have never found, or dug up anything that proves he even existed, let alone the great things he did. They only uncover vague and non eyewitnessed references, (i.e. Josephus, etc!), these references have all come up short of proving he even existed. The idea of a 6000 year old earth, along with millions of people who need to be saved from the sins of said world, under the hand of a guy named Jesus is just the Christians story about the past. No Christian was there to see the supposed story, or live through the supposed time of Jesus. In fact, there is no proof whatsoever that Jesus and the rest of the fables in the bible ever happened. No CHristian observed Jesus die. Christians only find these stories, in the bible, they are entirely impossible according to science as we know it. Because many of todays Christians are scientists, they try to fit the impossible stories in the bible into thier view.

Nice! Post more often. I like the way you think.

You want crazy therioes about Noah's Ark and the flood? Read some of the Fundamentalist Christian Creationists....I've seen them claim that there were vaults (created by the Lard) under the ground full of water which broke open and flooded the land on top of the 40 days of rain, that Noah's Ark is on Mt. Ararat in Turkey, and on, and on.

Why do they need quasi- or pseudo-science to back up their faith object? If you believe in Biblical Literalism, you don't need some "pointyhead" scientist to tell you what you know is already "true." It either points to a weak faith OR a way to create talking points for prosletizing tracts and sermons.

Much of the Bible is based on myths and tales from the Tigris-Euphrates Valley. Ur, home of Abraham, lies there, and the Sumerian, Babylonian and Assyrian civilizations grew there.

The T-E were famous for violent flooding, which many scholars believed led to their religion of violent gods. While the Nile was regular and gentle with predictable flooding, the T-E was violent and unpredictable.

The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh takes place after a massive flood. It probably means that the T-E flooded badly and wiped out most of the cities along the valley, which was their world.

I doubt Noah's flood was more than a massive river flooding. The entire world was not covered, just their world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Deluge

It is global per the Morg.

Every mountain top covered with H2O....including Mt. Everest.

What is the average temp 29K feet above sea level?

Noah and friends would have been frozen solid.

Case closed.

Probitas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is global per the Morg.
>
> Every mountain top covered with H2O....including
> Mt. Everest.
>
> What is the average temp 29K feet above sea
> level?
>
> Noah and friends would have been frozen solid.
>
> Case closed.

...probably in the order of minus 40 celsius. Plus the hypoxia.

Anything above 8,000m is calledvthe Death Zone. You simply can't surrvive any length of time at that height. The summit approaches of big montains like Everest, K2 etc are littered with countless bodies, frozen solid, that prove the point made by Probitas.

So, obviosly, the mormon god created a warm oxygen rich bubble around he ark. Except the dinosaurs were to big to fit inside the special bubble, which is why the died. Duh!!

Obviously, I don't believe in Noah nor his ark, but I do have a question about this.

That's 8,000 meters above sea level, right? But if sea level were (hypothetically) raised by 8,000 meters, wouldn't we see conditions there about the same as at current sea level.

I realize there would be a slight decrease in atmospheric pressure (and accompanying tempature decrease) since the area of the surface of the earth would increase, but only slightly. Raising sea level by 8,000 meters only increases the radius of the earth by just over 0.1%.

Physics hurts my head.

Here is one explanation I found:

Air pressure and density depends on the column of air above your location, not where sea level is. We use altitude above sea level as a measurement. Unless, of course, all the Earth's atmosphere was lifted up those 29000 feet together with the water, in which case pressure could have been OK. However, the temperature would have taken much longer to equalize, they probably would have frozen to death...

I'll bet apologists would say that one reason Noah lived to be 900 or so is that there was a richer oxygen environment and then they'd connect that with something like "the cold temp's would not apply at higher elevations" and yadda yadda yadda and the ark was not frozen, etc....

As an ignorant TBM, I believed that the continents were not divided until after the flood (in the days of Peleg). That means that there were no big mountain ranges yet, so the relatively flat earth was much easier to flood. Naturalistic answers are MUCH easier when one ignores science as misinformed/misled by Satan.