Several years ago I came across an obscure book written around the time Joseph Smith was writing his fictional BoA scripture and the ongoing D&C. If memory serves me right, this book had entire concepts that could have been cut and pasted directly into LDS scripture (no I’m not referring to the Bible nor the works of Swedenborg)…but for the life of me I cannot remember its name nor its author (could it have been a gentle man with the last name of Dick?) Anyway if anyone can help me I would appreciate it.

Thanks
Cr@ig

I think you are looking for Thomas Dick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Dick_(scientist)

Yes I believe that is it...thanks

...owned a copy of the book, which he donated:

http://user.xmission.com/~research/about/books.htm

"Alphabetical list of books donated by Joseph Smith to the Nauvoo Library and Literary Institute, 31 January 1844:

[Thomas] Dick[']s Philosophy [of a Future State]"

Ok so Dick's book was an influence but were there any other books that anyone is aware of?

...Emmanuel Swedenborg's:

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/swedenborg.htm

What exactly from Dick's book was influential? Can anyone give quotes, page numbers, references, or at least ideas?

Dick promoted a belief in Intelligences prior to becoming Spirits prior to this earth life...the same as Smith's fictional Abraham did

http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_8.html

More specifically, according to Grant Palmer, Joseph Smith owned one particular book that probably greatly influenced his cosmology:

Klaus Hansen, an LDS scholar, has written: "The progressive aspect of Joseph's theology, as well as its cosmology, while in a general way compatible with antebellum thought, bears some remarkable resemblances to Thomas Dick's Philosophy of a Future State, a second edition of which had been published in 1830," Joseph Smith owned a copy of this work, and Oliver Cowdery in December 1836 quoted some lengthy excerpts from it in the Messenger and Advocate [Dec. 1836: 423-25]. Hansen continues:

Some very striking parallels to Smith's theology suggest that the similarities between the two may be more than coincidental. Dick's lengthy book, an ambitious treatise on astronomy and metaphysics, proposed the idea that matter is eternal and indestructible and rejected the notion of a creation ex nihilo. Much of the book dealt with the infinity of the universe, made up of innumberable stars spread out over immeasurable distances. Dick speculated that many of these stars were peopled by "various orders of intelligences" and that these intelligences were "progressive beings" in various stages of evolution toward perfection. In the Book of Abraham, part of which consists of a treatise on astronomy and cosmology, eternal beings of various orders and stages of development likewise populate numerous stars. They, too, are called "intelligences." Dick speculated that "the systems of the universe revolve around a common center... the throne of God." In the Book of Abraham, one star named Kolob "was nearest unto the throne of God." Other stars, in ever diminishing order, were placed in increasing distances from this center.

Here a link to Amazon Kindle for only $0.99 but it looks like parts of it are photo copied. Not sure about the quality. It's the complete works of Thomas Dick, including the referenced "Philosophy of a Future State." Haven't read it, but may buy it.

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-works-Thomas-Dick-ebook/dp/B00EXYJEC4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409090043&sr=8-1&keywords=thomas+dick

View of the Hebrews by Ethan Smith of Vermont, had a similar concept/plot line ... the restoration of the tribes of Israel in America, as American Indians. 1st Edition publish date 1823.

His Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Dick_%28scientist%29

A copy of his 1829 book "Philosophy of a Future State:"

https://archive.org/details/philosophyafutu05dickgoog

So I'm writing a letter to an LDS family member and I've been reading a later version of Thomas Dick because Brodie, Palmer, CES letter, and many others discuss Dick as a source. I was thinking maybe this was some better evidence against the BofA but apologists say the BofA presents a geocentric model and Dick's model isn't geocentric. Could someone please help me find this ." "Other stars, in ever diminishing order, were placed in increasing distances from this center" And is there any other evidence that the BofA is kolob centric? Also, it seems that Dick's intelligences include angels and other intelligent life
forms that are maybe (can't tell yet)organized more as Protestants left me dick would see things. Without reading the entire thing does anyone know where he says humans were preexistent?

Here's a 10 & a half minute video that covers this issue, and totally demolishes the notion that Kolob is the slightest bit 'centric' to anything at all, assuming that it really exists, which it doesn't.

One point that the video makes: our radio signals, which have been being broadcast since the beginning of the 20th century, have only reached the tiniest, tiniest little globe in the Milky Way galaxy.

The only 'hope' mormons have is that they can still sell the 'local ghawds' vision, about there being "ghawds all the way down."


Just ignore the last 30 seconds, which is a commercial.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy7NzjCmUf0



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2017 06:02PM by elderolddog.

Cr@ig,

If you are going after the BoA, the most bulletproof approach is to simply start with Facsimile 3. It offers the unique advantage of leaving no room for symbolic interpretation, since it has both the original characters and Joseph Smith's bogus translation published in the same place with specific sets of characters tied to very specific meanings. Dr. Robert K. Ritner, Professor of Egyptology at the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, has done the world the service of translating Facsimile 3, clearly demonstrating that Joseph Smith had no clue how to translate the characters above the heads and hands of the figures. I recommend his book, "The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_K._Ritner

Or, instead of having to just trust Dr. Ritner (who did an
excellent job on the JS papyri, BTW) why not translate it
yourself so you have first-hand knowledge that JS was bogus as a
3-dollar bill:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1569142,1569142#msg-1569142

Here is an earlier thread on the topic: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1406122,1406157#msg-1406157


Here are a few highlights from that thread, which happen to be extracts from Dick's book:


"...it may be stated, that the soul of man appears to be capable of making a perpetual progress towards intellectual and moral perfection, and of enjoying felicity in every stage of its career, without the possibility of ever arriving at a boundary to its excursions."

"A thousand conjectures and inquiries are suggested to the mind, in relation to the systems and worlds which are dispersed through the immensity of space. Are all those vast globes peopled with inhabitants? Are they connected together, under the government of God, as parts of one vast moral system? Are their inhabitants pure moral intelligences, or are they exposed to the inroads of physical and moral evil? What are the gradations of rank or of intellect which exist among them? What correspondence do they carry on with other provinces of the Divine empire?"

“It is now considered by astronomers, as highly probable, if not certain, - from late observations, from the nature of gravitation, and other circumstances, that all the systems of the universe revolve round one common centre, - and that this centre may bear as great a proportion, in point of magnitude, to the universal assemblage of systems as the sun does to his surrounding planets, And, since our sun is five hundred times larger than the earth, and all the other planets and their satellites taken together, - on the same scale, such a central body would be five hundred times larger than all the systems and worlds in the universe. Here, then, may be a vast universe of itself - an example of material creation, exceeding all the rest in magnitude and splendor, and in which are blended the glories of every other system. If this is in reality the case, it may, with the most emphatic propriety, be termed, THE THRONE OF GOD... This grand central body may be considered as the capital of the universe. From this glorious centre, embassies may be occasionally dispatched to all surrounding worlds, in every region of space. Here, too, deputations from all the different provinces of creation, may occasionally assemble, and the inhabitants of different worlds mingle with each other, and learn the grand outlines of those physical operations and moral transactions, which have taken place in their respective spheres. Here, may be exhibited to the view of unnumbered multitudes, objects of sublimity and glory, which are no where else to be found within the wide extent of creation. Here, intelligences of the highest order, who have attained the most sublime heights of knowledge and virtue, may form the principal part of the population of this magnificent region. Here, the glorified body of the Redeemer may have taken its principal station, as "the head of all principalities and powers:" and here likewise, Enoch and Elijah may reside, in the mean time, in order to learn the history of the magnificent plans and operations of Deity, that they may be enabled to communicate intelligence respecting them to their brethren of the race of Adam, when they shall again mingle with them in the world allotted for their abode, after the general resurrection...”

Thanks for the info. I'm
Writing on a phone so apologize for lack
Of references typos etc. I agree that going after facsimile 3 is probably the best approach for presenting scholarly evidence against the LDS but most Mormons seem ok that the Egyptian doesn't match what JS said. I had done a word search of Thomas and found the very interesting quotes that you posted,plus others. Thomas was viewed as cutting edge Science and in agreement with Christianity/Bible, so I would expect Joseph to be influenced by his thinking. But it appears that apologists say the BofA presents a geocentric model. Thomas Dick apparently presents a Throne centered cosmos with everything revolving around a giant center.

It has been a while since I've read all of Abraham. Can anyone help me find where the BofA presents a Kolob centric view?
The BofA model seems graded up to the throne from the earth as Abraham may have viewed it?
The idea that heavenly things are centered around God/Throne seems to beancient but the Throne is above the earth. The throne of God in Dick's view seems to be a heavenly place which the earth and all things rotate around but nGod the Father is disembodied and not really on the symbolic throne. He seems to believe heaven is at the center of the universe? And that makes sense and maybe JS viewed it that way but I can't yet see it in the BofA.

Also, I'm still searching but haven't found where Thomas Dick clearly presents ideas of preexistent humans that were not created. He seems to believe God created them to progress (seems to mean learning for him) forever but this isn't that unusual and it's difficult to say JOSEPH Smith lifted
that from Dick, among so many ideas he could have latched on to. And, the idea that some "intelligences" existed before is Biblical, so Joseph Smith may have been influenced by the Bible there?
The idea that all things are centered around God is ancient

It seems you're putting far too much thought into these two books that are both complete bullshit. Do your TBM family members even care about the BoA? It's extremely short, but most TBMs rarely, if ever, read it, and it gets almost no attention in SS. I doubt your family will care about any similarities between the books. They'd probably just argue that Dick was inspired. What inspired Smith doesn't really matter...we know he didn't translate anything on the papyrus.

Rule #1: Never put too much stock into the exegesis of an apologist.

The BoA is very vague. I have no idea where they see a geocentric model. In fact, words like "center" or "around" do not exist in that text. The apologists are throwing up the geocentric model as a smokescreen to distract readers from Dick. If they can point to geocentricity, then clearly the BoA was not written in the 19th Century, but must be something much more ancient to explain the glaring scientific inaccuracy. Interesting approach, considering that would mean that God is either an ignorant geocentric ancient or the BoA was written by an uninspired ancient man.

I think what you are looking for are references like the following from Facsimile 2:

"Fig. 5. Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob."


Abraham 3:3 similarly identifies Kolob as the planet/star that governs all the other planets/stars. Personally, I would interpret the whole "governing" thing as an indication of centricity, but the text is vague and stupid so there you have it.

Thanks for all the thoughts. My TBM family members do care about the BofA. They also like to think. They arent very concerned about the restorations but the actual text is important since it's Scripture and the heiratic filler shows that they weren't concerned about the restorations back in the day.
It seemed that Thomas Dick might be a good argument but it's probably not the best. Ill likely focus on Facsimile 3. It seems to be the best. it could be argued that Js isnt actually trying to translate names from hieroglyphics, more just that they are named or represented by characters written above hands and heads. Of course Horos can't be called Shulem so that's something I'll discuss.
Thanks again.

it still merits mention that good old phony prophet pervert MORmON Joe made the epic blunder of putting a human head on the Anubis and expected to be taken seriously.

smirkorama Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... good old phony > prophet pervert MORmON Joe made the epic blunder > of putting a human head on Anubis and expected
> to be taken seriously.

Yes, indeed. Joe had his flim-flam scribes paste a cartoon head on the shoulders of a jackal-god and a woody on the God of creation.

Just two of many howlers decorating that lame and fake Book of Abe.

At my trial I asked if anyone there believed in the BofA. Not one rose to defend it. I knew it was bogus the moment I saw the facsimiles as I had seen similar ones during a course I had taken at MIT in 1966.

I've always wondered if JS had a copy this book:

"The Sixth & Seventh Books of Moses; Moses' Magical Spirit-Art.

"Known as The Wonderful Arts of The Old Wise Hebrews, Taken from The Mosaic Books of The Cabala and The Talmud, for The Good of Mankind"

--Egyptian Publishing Company



My copy is undated. Very old.

Lots of engravings that smack of stuff Smith hatched up.



http://files.vsociety.net/data/library/Section%201%20(A%2CG%2CM%2CS%2CZ)/Unknown/Unknown%20Album/The%20Sixth%20and%20Seventh%20Book%20of%20Moses.pdf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2017 09:20PM by kathleen.

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