I have posted on my marital issues here before (http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,578523,578523#msg-578523) and received a lot of good advice. Since then, I have been taking much better care of myself (exercising, losing weight, etc.) and I have been seeing a therapist on my own (I have suggested marital counseling but she believes that it would be too much of a hassle and expense to get babysitters).

I have been preparing to have "the talk" regarding my disbelief in the Church and of the problems in our marriage because it needs to happen soon, but last week something happened that really rocked my world so to speak.

As background, I am of course not blameless for the situation we are in. We have moved several times during our marriage and that has certainly affected her (although we were in one place for 5 years and she wasn't happy there either). Anyway, I told her that I was thinking about moving us back to a place we'd lived previously where I thought she and the kids were the happiest. I'll be honest here and state that part of my motivation for doing this is to have her in a place she feels comfortable in case we do end up getting divorced.

Upon hearing my suggestion, my wife totally lost it. She has screamed at me before several times so that was nothing new, but this time she physically shoved me with both hands repeatedly (one time so hard I almost fell over, and I am not a small nor weak person). I slept on the couch that night and seriously considered just leaving right then and there.

What I'd like to hear opinions on this: Was this abusive? Look, I have read stories of horrific abuse on this site (e.g., forestpal's stories) and I know this was nowhere near that, but what do I call this exactly then? Is it normal for married couples to get overheated and push each other around sometimes? I'm just trying to get a sense for "out of bounds" this was.

No. Your wife behaved badly, but she did not abuse you.

I have never been pushed by even a boyfriend, or my husband, in anything other than play or a danger-avoidance kind of thing.

You should talk with your counselor about it. She's certainly giving you grounds to leave her.

While I can possibly understand her getting upset at the prospect of another move... She handled her emotions very poorly.


Also, your wife would probably benefit from some counseling too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2012 02:31PM by WinksWinks.

It sounds to me like she just lost her temper.

Has pushing or any negative physical contact ever occured in your marriage before? Sometimes people lash out in physical ways without thinking, I wouldnt call it abuse. IMO abuse is something that occurs often and is in the abuser's personality and interest to inflict harm. Do you consider your wife an abusive person? or just a person that looses her cool sometimes just like the rest of us?

Irregardless, I would have a serious talk with her about it. Put your foot down on physical abuse or it could escalate. While I believe she just lost her temper, I do not agree with the manner in which she handled herself. She is a grown woman who has to be an EXAMPLE to her children.

As a woman, a small but scrappy one, myself, I think any human laying hands on another one in the way you described is way out of bounds.

People who push, shove, pinch, poke, hit, slap, throw things that hit you or grab at you or twist your arm, pull your hair, whatever, are doing the whole "We need to talk" or "I am displeased with you" thing, all wrong.

Shoving someone off you who is trying to hold you down or hurt you, is one thing. Walking over to someone and shoving them up against a wall or down onto the floor is something else.

She may have figured out what you are doing and why. So what? That does not justify what she did. It's her reason or excuse for doing it, but unless you assaulted her first there is no justification for her doing it.

Man, I get mad and scream at the world in rage sometimes (mostly on the insides, but a time or two out thereinthe real world), but I do not ever rough up my husband or kid because I think they're doing things wrong or because they anger me, frustrate me, disagree with me or oppose me.

If she's screamed at you before, is acting irrationally in other ways, and now is hitting you, there may be something more than simple anger, disappointment or rage going on.

If she goes to hit you again, tell her in no uncertain terms that you are not giving her a second chance at abusing you. If she touches you in this way again, then follow through on that warning and call 911.

As far as what is going on with both of you in regards to your marriage and your disbelief, you might consider telling her the actual, whole truth of what is going on as that truth may actually be less sscary and anger-making to her,than what she may be thinking in its place (ie: adultery, you are coming out as gay, you are a murderer, an addict, etc).

Would it count as abuse if a man did that to a woman? You bet. It's abuse regardless of which naughty bits the perpetrator has.

+ 1 and everything WinksWinks said too. She needs counseling.

Ask yourself this. If you did to her what she did to you, would you consider it abuse? Women can be physically abusive to men, too. Women are typically smaller and weaker than men are, but that's definitely not always the case. Moreover, if a woman wields a weapon, all bets are off. You don't have the right to put your hands on her in anger. Likewise, she doesn't have the right to put her hands on you in anger.

Check out www.shrink4men.com if you think you might be a male victim of domestic violence. As for this particular situation, I don't know if I would call it abuse or not. Only you can answer that question.

ETA: Here's a link to a Shrink4Men blog post about the sexist way people perceive abuse when it's perpetrated in public.

http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2010/07/29/reaction-to-women-abusing-men-in-public/



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2012 02:52PM by knotheadusc.

Yes-If the roles were reversed this would not be ok.

I'm a little stunned that some people are minimizing this, like a little pushing is losing temper but not abuse, and can't help but feel like that opinion would not be the same if it was a woman telling this story about her husband.

Some people are discounting this because it's the first time she did it. Abuse always starts with a first time. People don't get a free pass for the first physical manifestation of rage.

Yes, this was abuse.

IMO, abuse is largely defined by what it does to your psyche. If abused you will find yourself clamming up, being fearful, etc. if patterns emerge that you are in a position that you may be abused again.

One other comment - I've done a lot of reading on the Myers-Brigg personality stuff. One fascinating thing with that is that people have a normal way they deal with the world - it varies based on your personality type. When they get moderately stressed people automatically switch to a second way of dealing with the world (your brain decides your normal approach isn't work so it tries something else.) When extremely stressed people then switch to another approach - their shadow self. (Again your brain says, what I'd doing isn't working so let's try something else.) Ironically right when you need your skills and strengths the most they all turn off. You then take the opposite approach the approach that you are the worst at.

For example:

I am typically an introverted feeler. My normal self is to avoid conflict. So that means when I get super stressed I turn into a shadow and become an extroverted sensor. And since this is not my normal home base I do those things very poorly and end up being mean and aggressive - the exact opposite of who I normally really am.

In the same token my wife is normally an extroverted sensor. When she gets super stressed she switches to introverted feeler. In her case she then becomes super pessimistic and thinks the entire world and future is full of nothing but doom - because this is the opposite of who she normally is.

So I guess the point is I try to cut people a little slack when they are in super stressed mode - they literally become a different person. It can certainly be mitigated and it doesn't make it OK to act hurtful ways when stressed and becoming your "shadow self" but it can be helpful to understand what is going on.

(This is also why continuing a fight when both parties are extremely upset is so often disastrous - when you are in this state you are using all your worst skills and all your strongest skills are turned off for handling these sorts of things.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2012 03:02PM by bc.

I never thought of it that way bc (in terms of my own psyche). In my own mind, I have been delaying "the talk" because I fear how it will affect her. I never considered before that I have been delaying it out of fear of what she will say (or do) to me.

bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO, abuse is largely defined by what it does to
> your psyche.

I strongly disagree. Abuse is about the abuser, not the victim. It is defined by the abuser's actions, not the abused's response. If someone is physically abused and shrugs it of, the action is still abuse, the shrugging off is the abused's way of handling it. Same with verbal, emotional and sexual abuse. Abuse is always defined by the abuser's actions. If you watched someone shoving their kid out of rage, and the kid didn't seem to be emotionally affected by it, would you not consider the parent's action to be abusive?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2012 04:20PM by wittyname.

Abuse is about the behavior of the abuser, not the impact on the abused.

If someone abuses me and I am able to shake it off with no damage to me, IT IS STILL ABUSE.

In America, we have personal space. If you enter personal space screaming in someone's face, that's emotional abuse. If you enter personal space to shove someone, that's abuse.

Where will you draw the line? When she draws blood? What if you fell and broke your collarbone, then is it abuse? Can you imagine what would happen if you were the perpetrator instead of your wife?

The fact that you are asking the question shows that you are not connected (yet) to the part of you that should be guiding your decisions--self-respect and a solid conscience which springs from values that you have selected for yourself. You are not going to be shoved, hit, spit on, lied to, etc, and you are not going to do it to others. It's the way most of the healthy world works.

Having said that, you are a manipulative and secret-keeping SOB. She is sick of you jerking her around whenever you please based on what you decide is good for her "if you decide to leave." If you don't want to be Mormon, have the balls to stop disrespecting women immediately, starting with you future ex-wife.

Instead of manipulating information, why don't you acknowledge her as an intelligent and full partner in the marriage. TELL HER THE TRUTH. You are planning on leaving and she has the right --RIGHT!-- to have accurate information from you so she can plan HER OWN NEXT MOVE.

Start with an apology that you have been keeping your research, thoughts and ideas to yourself. That is a violation of the confidante relationship of marriage. She deserves this going forward. If you have children, she is going to have to trust you--what reason would she have to trust you after you spring this on her.

Tell her the real reason you thought it might be best to move back to where she was happiest. Tell her you want to be a better person but Mormonism has filled you with dishonesty and lies. And you are really sorry.

She might be mad, but YOU, sir, will have taken a HUGE step away from being a self-absorbed priesthood holder and a HUGE step toward your own recovery.


Anagrammy

...it's abuse. I'm with everyone above who asked what you would think if it was a role reversal. Pushing someone out of anger/rage (with the exception of self defense) is assault, plain and simple.

I wouldn't call it abuse, but I'd call it a fu#ked up marriage. You guys need to end it or fix it but the longer you stay in the middle, the worse it's gonna get. Her shoving you is gonna escalate to her throwing stuff and breaking stuff. What a rotten example of marriage you guys are giving your kids. I hope you take the time someday to tell your kids, "don't do what we did".

Breaking stuff is not as far escalated as assaulting him. If she was breaking stuff, it would be a sign that she at least had the self restraint to not take her violent rage out on him physically. It's not sane to break stuff, obviously. But it's better than physically taking rage out on the object of her rage.

I think it depends, though. If the wife is destroying property that is valuable, treasured, or necessary for the OP's livelihood, it could be just as bad as physical assault.

I think I would rather my husband hit me than abuse one of our dogs (not that he's ever done that or ever will do that). Most of the other things we own are replaceable, of course. But a partner who goes around breaking stuff can be very intimidating. It's a way of being violent without leaving tell-tale cuts and bruises. The object of the abuse and intimidation might be on edge, wondering when the abuser is finally going to snap.

I agree, it is intimidating and emotional abuse. It's also wrong (I was not lumping pet abuse into the breaking things argument, that's also harming a living thing, there's no scale for that. It's neither better nor worse to abuse an animal instead of a human, they are both disgustingly abusive). However, breaking things is not escalation, it is still violent rage, but there's still a shred of restraint to not physically take it out on the object of the rage (I would consider throwing things AT a person to be the same as physical abuse. Throwing a vase at a wall is violent rage - still scary, intimidating and emotionally abusive, but not physical abuse yet. Again, not that that behavior is any more justifiable or any less dysfunctional). Once the physical line is crossed, that is significant escalation. Someone doesn't go from there to breaking vases against the wall, they go from there to more physical abuse.

Absolutely agree with wittyname. Putting your hands on someone out of anger is abuse, always. Although abuse doesn't always just start with hitting. Indications of abuse are breaking things -- it's a matter of time before the object becomes your body. Name calling, jealousy, isolation from your support system, are all big red flags.

To me, an isolated situation is not in the context of abuse. I have experience with this. My first wife was very tempermental. From the beginning of our 20+ year marriage she pushed, hit, called me vile names, insulted me, threw things at me, etc. The first time it happened, we had no kids, had been married a month or so. I came home after a 12 hour day at work and sat on the couch. I drifted off to sleep. The next thing I knew she was throwing a cup of water in my face, indicating, "If I don't get to sleep, neither to you." Then, at the grocery store, if I didn't walk fast enough she would ram the cart into my heels. Later into the marriage she would push me when she lost her temper, and then even later, she began to hit me anytime she felt like it. The girl could punch hard too. She left bruises. I NEVER RETALIATED THOUGH. I finally took her to a counselor and The counselor said to her very sternly, "Don't you ever lay a finger on him again that is abuse. You can be arrested for that. Stop it." She stopped for a few years, but then started the pushing, hitting, name calling again. One day she scratched my hand for little or no reason. I had had enough. I called the Police, but at the last minute when they were about to take her away - I softened up. I noticed that everyone, neighbors, parents, etc. thought I was the bad guy for this. In my opinion, your wife was scared when you said the "D" word. To you, as with most men, you were looking at the situation very pragmattically. To her, you sent a shock wave of hurt and fear through her. Be gentle with her feelings. I probably would let this pushing incident go, but if it happens again - time to establish a boundary with her.

Thanks.

Just to be clear, I have never mentioned divorce to her. I mentioned moving but I'll admit that part of my motivation for moving is to get her into a more comfortable community in case we get divorced (but I have not said that to her).

I misinterpreted your statement, "in case we do end up getting divorced." I think she is reading between the lines, and if she's dependant on you - she's scared. Hey good luck...I wish your the best.

What qualifies as abuse in your book, using a hammer? If she attacked him with a hammer just one time, you know, an "isolated situation", would it not be abuse?

Sorry, a single act of assault is a single act of abuse. Two acts of assault would be two acts of abuse.

Good point...I guess I was think about abuse in the context of persistance, continuous, etc. Semantics. Just my opinion.

You can't have a pattern of physical abuse without the first incident of physical abuse. Abuse always starts with a first time. If someone fails to recognize the first incident as abuse, or would rather not identify it as such out of denial, humiliation, fear of what will happen if it's addressed, etc., then they are likely setting themselves up for a pattern of abuse.

There is no justification for abuse. Not fear of divorce or any other excuse. It doesn't make it less wrong because she did it in a highly emotional state, most people don't assault others in a normal frame of mind anyway.

If this is what she does when she's pushed to the limit by her husband, what will she do when she's eventually pushed to the limit by her kids? If he becomes used to justifying and making excuses for her behavior toward him, he will likely view her behavior towards the kids in the same way. At least this was my experience growing up with an abusive father and a mother who had an excuse and justification for every incident of abuse (herself or the kids) so she wouldn't have to confront it head on and make tough decisions.

Ask a policeman. Anytime anyone lays hands on you or stops you from leaving w/o your permission, they can be arrested for assault. I had an ex-boyfriend grab my bicycle handlebars and refuse to let me go, he didn't lay a hand on me, and a policeman (who I later asked about it, by then it was all over) said I could have had him arrested for assault.

Only you can judge what reaction you choose to have, but pushing you around is abuse, in my book. It can often lead to violence when one party responds to being pushed and things can get out of hand.

Also, denying one the use of a telephone when you're mad at them is also illegal. JFYI



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2012 04:08PM by lostinutah.

I was in a verbally abusive relationship for 14 years. And I watched my mother verbally abuse my father and physically abuse us kids my whole life. From what you said about her yelling at you all the time, this is an abusive relationship and it has just escalated from verbal to physical. It will continue to escalate until she gets help. Abuse is basically someone dealing with you in a manipulative, threatening way that demeans you and causes you to be fearful.

Hm. I can see where I was wrong with my previous post. Here is a new analysis I have come to after reading all your posts. Keep in mind, this has more to do with nature vs actions:

If a woman hits a man, at first sight it's called loosing her temper, but if a man hits a woman, he is called "an abusive person" immediately. It's the same action either way you put you slice it, but both are extremely exagerated on both sides because we as a society have put women on a pedestal for being defensless, and men as the dominant, agressive gender.

Women are not always innocent and defensless, and men are not always tempermental. Just because a man hits a woman, doesnt make him an abusive person, although the act itself was. Yes, he would be called abusive, but that is what society has defined it as rather than just "loosing his cool" or "being human" like they would define the woman's actions to be rather than just skipping to the character of the woman like they would with the man.

All of you have lost your temper from time to time whether it was verbal, emotional, or physical... would you consider yourself an abusive person for doing this?

Society needs to stop being so black and white about the topic of abuse. Actions of hitting someone on both sides is an abusive act, but defining someone as "abusive" takes more than just one hit to the face; this has more to do with personality.

Assault is abuse, period. That is why assault is a criminal act.

What she did was assault, abusive and could even be criminal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2012 05:46PM by MJ.

So is the behavior abuse after the second time? Or the third? An act of abuse is an act of abuse. The person who executes the act of abuse is the abuser. It really is that black and white. If she never does it again, or does it 10 more times, it does not change the fact that this WAS abuse. And that's what the OP asked, whether this qualified as abuse. Yes it does.

You say:
"All of you have lost your temper from time to time whether it was verbal, emotional, or physical... would you consider yourself an abusive person for doing this?"

Losing your temper does not always include verbal, emotional or physical abuse. When it escalates to that, then yes, it is abuse. If a person loses their temper to the extent that the result is verbal, emotional or physical abuse, then yes they've abused. I'm a big enough person to admit that I do have abusive tendencies, and I have been verbally and emotionally abusive before. I recognized it immediately, as I know what it looks like, I was verbally and emotionally abused growing up. I got help. I actively make sure I keep my temper in check and never let it escalate to that level, I know the triggers and know the signs and I know how to control myself. But that doesn't change the fact that, to the person I emotionally and verbally abused, I was an abuser. It does not matter that it was twice and not 10 times, it was 2 times more than it should have been. Prior to that relationship, I never lost my temper to the extent that I was emotionally and verbally abusive, after I recognized it in myself, got help and sorted myself out, I have never lost my temper in that way again, and never will. But that doesn't erase what I did. It doesn't minimize what I did. It doesn't make it less abusive.

as an abused person myself I view this as a "gateway" to further abuse. It's never okay to push, hit or shove. My ex used to grab my wrist so hard I thought bones would break. That lasted for about 2 years. Then the shoving, hitting, choking began. If she is okay with doing what she did, if things get worse, she may feel comfortable and justified with doing more. I'm not saying she will...but it happened to me and I would hate to see it happen to you. Just be careful is all I'm saying.