When I discovered the Mark Hoffman scandal, the following questions came to mind:

1. Why didn't the Holy Ghost reveal Hoffman was a fraud to the Lord's anointed, yea, even Gordon B. Hinckley?

2. Why didn't the Holy Ghost prevent Hinkley from spending thousands of tithing dollars to purchase fraudulent documents exposing early church history?

3. How did the evil anti-mormons, Gerald and Sandra Tanner, know that Hoffman was a fraud, but Hinkley, et al, didn't?

As a wavering TBM, I came to this conclusion: If personal prayer/revelation couldn't get Hinkley to see the fraud, how can I, a lowly peon, ever expect to get the answers I need?

I never said another personal prayer again.

It's been over a year. I've discovered life isn't any different. All those prayers, regular temple trips, and daily scripture study were all for naught.

It was me all along.

I meant "Hofmann" and "Hinckley".

It's been that kind of day. :)

Hey folks,

Found this post through a google alert for the term "Mark Hofmann". I have a great interest in the Hofmann case as I am a forensic document examiner and an active Mormon. I consider myself an "ex-Utah Mormon" because I think the craziest of us are required to remain there and exchange crazy unfounded "faith promoting rumors". But I am hapily active.

Anyway, just wanted to clear up one point from the original poster. I believe that the church's official policy in acquiring historic documents is to not use any of the church's funds. I've studied this case quite heavily in my short career and I believe all of the primary source documentation show that all of Hofmann's documents were acquired either through donation or through trade of other historic documents. Many of the books which focus more on the sensational aspects of this case may not say that but the primary sources will.

If anyone ever wants to have a discussion about this case or anything else, I would love to exchange cordial communication without me resorting to testifying. I am a scientist, rational thinker, skeptic, and somehow really love LDS philosophy. And I hate saccharine discussions of faith.

Even if the church didn't use it's own money and those of private investors, makes this case even more slimey. Not only did the church leaders not have any spirit of discernment concerning Hoffman, but they risked other people's money to procure the forged documents.

How anybody who was paying attention stayed Mormon after that fiasco is quite beyond me.

Gordon proved not just that it was a man-made and man run organization, but a deceitful organization at that. They were greedy lying SOBs done in by their own lies.

It was a test from the Lord to see if sniveling traitors like us would jump ship at the first sign of trouble. It cleared out the riffraff so honest servants like Porter Rockwell will have more hot wives in the CK.

Yeah, kind of like how God put all those dinosaur fossils on Earth (probably by forming the Earth out of older planets according to many TBMs and other young-earth creationists) just to trick us into thinking that the Earth may actually be more than 6,000 years.

You can't fool me though, I KNOW with ever fiber of my being, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. I know this because I asked God about it and then felt nothing (er, I mean I felt peaceful, which is a fruit of the Spirit so that must have been an answer right??)

Yep, that's how God rolls so get with the program!

Precisely! Dinosaurs... pshhhh. As IF.

There was a guy I knew up at UBY-I that believed that! It was the first time I had ever heard that theory, and even though I was a TBM, I thought that was batsh*t crazy. Even more crazy to think that he isn't the only one that thinks that way!

all of the Above, BUT: the church reported that there was Nothing Amiss in church finances.

and... they expect to have 'credibility' with the membership #!@$%?

The Ensign link (Oaks): http://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/10/recent-events-involving-church-history-and-forged-documents?lang=eng

On point quote: "In order to perform their personal ministries, Church leaders cannot be suspicious and questioning of each of the hundreds of people they meet each year. Ministers of the gospel function best in an atmosphere of trust and love. In that kind of atmosphere, they fail to detect a few deceivers, but that is the price they pay to increase their effectiveness in counseling, comforting, and blessing the hundreds of honest and sincere people they see. It is better for a Church leader to be occasionally disappointed than to be constantly suspicious."

I've read Oaks's drivel.

Seriously?

Oaks would have us believe :

God approved of thousands of tithing dollars being spent on FRAUDULENT documents. (On second thought, this is also the same god that wanted billions to be spent on a shopping mall/condo complex.)

God wanted 2 innocent mormons to be murdered in the cover up. (But wait - it's the same god that lets African children starve to death but helps me find my keys.)

God thinks a salamander is a spirit. (Hey, doesn't he also think a horse is a tapir?)

God told the holy ghost to reveal the truth to those evil Tanners even though Hinkley would look like a bafoon. (That evil Galileo made the pope look like a bafoon too, but I guess that was all part of the plan.)

One can maintain an atmosphere of trust and love and still be receptive to divine warnings (pretending for a moment such things exist). It wouldn't have needed to have been a full-blown heavenly visitation with the entire Hofmann plot laid bare in detail. It could have been mere uneasy feelings about the guy and the documents, feelings that would have led them to pass on the offer.

Oaks's BS is showing.

jpt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Ensign link (Oaks):
> http://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/10/recent-events-in
> volving-church-history-and-forged-documents?lang=e
> ng
>
> On point quote: "In order to perform their
> personal ministries, Church leaders cannot be
> suspicious and questioning of each of the hundreds
> of people they meet each year. Ministers of the
> gospel function best in an atmosphere of trust and
> love. In that kind of atmosphere, they fail to
> detect a few deceivers, but that is the price they
> pay to increase their effectiveness in counseling,
> comforting, and blessing the hundreds of honest
> and sincere people they see. It is better for a
> Church leader to be occasionally disappointed than
> to be constantly suspicious."


Oaks is arguing AGAINST the Church's own scripture:

"27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God
shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be
elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to
discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you
professing and yet be not of God."
--D&C 46:27

This was EXACTLY what was happening with Mark Hofmann. He was
a disbeliever who was "professing" belief but was, in fact, an
atheist. Not only that, he was involving the Church and its
leaders in a crime spree. Not only that, but he was
falsifying Church history in the process. If there was any
time that the Lord's servants should have been given the
"inspiration" referred to in D&C 46:27 it was with the Mark
Hofmann episode.

Oaks explanation might work for someone working completely
WITHOUT "inspiration." But for someone who claims to have
such inspiration--and to be endowed with it by the Lord
specifically as mentioned in the scripture above--Oaks's
explanation misses the mark by a parsec or two. And, Hofmann
wasn't coming to the leaders to be counseled. There was no
need for an "atmosphere of trust and love." He was coming to
them with BUSINESS DEALS. THAT is where hard-headed
skepticism is normal operating procedure.

Oh, and Question for those of you who underwent interviews by
bishops: have any of you ever had the Bishop appear
"suspicious" of you or what you say? Has there ever been any
"distrust" of you shown by the Bishop in any interview? Has
the atmosphere been something OTHER than "trust and love"?

Oaks' statement is about 9.8 on the Richter Scale for "blowing
it out your @$$"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 11:56PM by baura.

Oaks sinks himself with this quote: "The Church operates under a divine mandate to acquire and preserve the documents and artifacts that show its history, and these acquisitions were part of that effort."

A divine mandate? So God is smart enough to know a thousand years before the 116 pages are lost that "evil men" are going to try some hi-jinks with the BoM, and has a second set of CYA plates made (plates that are very labor intensive and rare), but after he "told" the church guys to get historical stuff, he lets the forger/bomber/Hoffman thing slide in real time?

If Hoffman hadn't taken them, they could have used that money to build another floor on the mall...

I remember when Oaks gave his talk about how a white salamander is the same thing as an angel. This was done before the fraud of the white salamander letter was exposed. As I read the text of the talk, I kept thinking "You've got to be kidding, the faithful are buying this crap?"

I think this points out one of the more remarkable aspects of mormonism (or any other religion): seemingly intelligent people who suspend all reason and come up with fairy tales that allow them to deal with the cog dis resulting from the conflict of their religious beliefs and what they have learned from science or personal experience. Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, the BOM, etc. all have detailed explanations that defy logic and have the appearance of credibility for the faithful. But, have you ever just sat back and thought about Joseph Smith, angels, gold plates, magic rocks and said to yourself "How did I ever fall for that?"

Or, is there something more sinister here? Oaks, Holland or any number of prominent mormons are pretty smart people who have achieved considerable success in their careers before becoming full time "witnesses." They're smart enought to know better, so that leads one to conclude that they are conning us.

I think that is what Hofmann was trying to expose.

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no115.htm

My favorite picture in the whole world is this one. I asked my TBM parents about this picture, including the same questions that you listed in your post. Their response, "We feel that you are losing your faith in the Lord's annointed." Ya think? They refused to comment these questions too:
1) Okay, so the profit, in his agedness, didn't read the spiritual promptings that day, he was having an off day...but but are there not 14 other "profits, seers, and revelators" that shouldn't have been deceived by the devil himself?
2) Okay, okay, so the Q15 were having off days and were in counseling mode...fine, then what about the entire Q70, what another 200 faithful brethren, how come they didn't receive any spiritual warning of this 'in your face' fraud?
3) Okay, okay, so the entire Q70 were having a rough day too, but what about the entire church historical staff, the experts, are they not all temple worthy High Priests, how come no Holy Ghostus warning for them?

Hmmmnn...looks like there were quite of few "brethren" having an off day.

That picture always makes me laugh...snake oil salesmen buying and selling snake oil from each other.

Maybe the latest JCPenney catalog had just come out, and they were all having problems staying away from the lingerie section...

Ponti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no115.htm
>
> My favorite picture in the whole world is this
> one. I asked my TBM parents about this picture,
> including the same questions that you listed in
> your post. Their response, "We feel that you are
> losing your faith in the Lord's annointed." Ya
> think? They refused to comment these questions
> too:
> 1) Okay, so the profit, in his agedness, didn't
> read the spiritual promptings that day, he was
> having an off day...but but are there not 14 other
> "profits, seers, and revelators" that shouldn't
> have been deceived by the devil himself?
> 2) Okay, okay, so the Q15 were having off days and
> were in counseling mode...fine, then what about
> the entire Q70, what another 200 faithful
> brethren, how come they didn't receive any
> spiritual warning of this 'in your face' fraud?
> 3) Okay, okay, so the entire Q70 were having a
> rough day too, but what about the entire church
> historical staff, the experts, are they not all
> temple worthy High Priests, how come no Holy
> Ghostus warning for them?
>
> Hmmmnn...looks like there were quite of few
> "brethren" having an off day.


lol
they were being positive, so as not to take up energy on focusing on negative. Better to let a few errors by rather than being ever vigilant toward letting in any negatives I guess. (as the poster linked to Oaks sad excuse.)

I can't imagine what the purpose of a Holy Spirit is, or the role of apostles to guide it's flock out of sin, if not to give a person a heads-up to something potentially disastrous.

Oaks pathetic commentary denounces the concept to use the holy ghost to stay vigilant against evil.

SWK was the big cheese at the time. GBH was a counselor, along with NLT, MGR and BKP.

SWK died about a month after the bombings and ETB ascended to the big chair.

The forged document was consistent with all the other documents in their basement that they won't show the public. Full of a lot of non-faith promoting material that would undermind the faith of the followers

from the whole "give your all to the cult" thing and start to look at it with a more critical eye. Though he never really budged after that, his cynicism was obvious if one brought the topic up. After his death I went through his papers and found that he had carefully preserved the LA Times' comprehensive reports on the Salamander Letter and the murders.

For me it was the icing on my "I'm done with this b.s." cake. I was already gone, but the Salamander Letter fraud and the Hofmann murders just proved what I had already divined for myself: revelation schmevelation.

The Mark Hofmann murders were the first crack in my church prison.

If any of the top authorities in the church would have called bs on Hofmann's forgeries and refused to deal with him, two decent people would not have died.

Hofmann was a cold-hearted psychopath, murder was nothing to him, and those old foolish men let him have the run of the place, and then tried to have his trial hushed up, so they wouldn't look bad.

As a trusting young woman, I picked up "The Mormon Murders" expecting the church to be the wise cousel that would help the police catch the bad man. Was I in for a SHOCK!

That was the begining of the end for me.

Don't forget that Brigham Young foresaw Mountain Meadows and, through his great inspired powers, spared the Mormon Church one of its greatest embarrassments, not to mention saving the lives of 130+ innocent people!

And what about avoiding the disaster of the Martin Willie handcart company? If the Lord's true Prophet, Seer and Revelator had not been literally talking to the Almighty face-to-face, all those innocent people would have been lost as well.

The Lord's Anointed also saw right through the Kinderhook Plate fraud -- and kept the BoA Facsimiles from being misread! And avoided a half-a-billion loss on Beneficial Life... and ... and ...

...I lost my place...

Bombs + Deaths

to lil ol me, those things SCREAM: Federal Investigation, Federal Prosecution.

But, in SLC ? No. Locals investigate & prosecute.

Didn't one of the investigators remark that he thought Wrickley was being evasive?

Wasn't there a plea bargain that avoided a trial (where church leaders Certainly would have been called to 'tell the truth'?

Hofmann rots in prison, he'll NEVER see freedom again, compared to victims all around, church finances, and the dead victims.

Sweet Deal for the church AND for Hofmann, 'eh?

I knew Mark Hoffman fairly well, he was a slimely creep, and when he discovered the characters from the B of M with A.J. Simmonds in the old book he had brought in the Library at USU I knew they had to be fake, and A.J. was set up to be a witness, AJ was so enthusiastic he lost his head and believed the scam. I think that is the whole Mark Hoffman story. Peolple wanted to believe. President Kimball wanted to believe and when i saw him glowing and smiling with Mark, the Little Turdball rat, I knew SWK was not a prophet.

The Holy Ghost didn't warn any of the GAs involved because they all masturbated.

Whistling past the GraveYard...

According to Simon Worrall's excellent book The Poet and the Murderer, Hofmann got $25,000 worth of Mormon artifacts in trade for his Anthon Transcript, in the form of a rare $5 gold coin, some Mormon bank notes, and a first edition BoM. The book also gives further details about other transactions between Hofmann and the church (and as an added bonus, Worrall is delightfully scathing in his brief history of TSCC, and in his assessment of Hofmann's hostility toward his Utah Mormon community, as well).

The form of payment doesn't matter; they still paid for them, and then tried to cover them up.