The thread was closed but I wanted to add my idea for your consideration:

A condition for a condition:

If your wife insists your dad must be present as a condition (which tells me she is not willing to evaluate things for herself) then it seems fair you should set a condition too.

Make that condition be that no evidence will be evaluated based on emotional (feelings, pray until you agree, wishful thinking, etc.) claims. Either the facts are independently verifiable by an unbiased party or they are not. Let her know the standard for evidence is higher than hearsay and testimonies. Let her know the standard of evidence means that their claims must fit all of the facts, not just the cherry picked few of the facts. If a claim does not fit the cumulative picture that the facts present, the claim cannot stand.

Thanks, I'll see what I can do with that.

bc,
When is this all going down? Will it be in one 10 hour long shot? Will your dad be there the whole time?

I like the idea of having her read things ahead of time, that way she gets more information. You said she is intelligent and logical... then all she needs is the info.

We're going to set something up with my dad - it won't be all at once. I think the first thing I'm going to look at with them is:

http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_1.html

To me if you can establish that something fishy was going on with the BoA it opens the door to doubt about the Book of Mormon.

I think the biggest thing is going to the be Polyandry, but I want to get a feel for the dynamic before I push forward with that. With the Polyandry I'm going to have to do my research to make sure I have direct sources because my wife is already on high alert for falsified and out of context quotes.

This is a good site, but who is Kevin Mathie? She will want to know the "angle" of the person writing this. He also says that while the BOA is a major testimony destroyer, women seem to take more issue with the polyg stuff. Make sure to have tight, rational and well researched arguments about both. The cherch is obsessed with sex stuff and that is a big turn off for a lot of people.

I'm glad you are not doing this tonight... you need time to get ORGANIZED with your thoughts and your arguments. I'd love to see what kind of an outline you come up with.

Well I think for the first round we'll just start reading that document.

I'm also planning to have a sheet with 3 columns with the possibilities:
1) Joseph Smith had the Book of Breathings, etc. and created a false translation
2) The document is authentically from Abraham
3) #1 but Joseph Smith still received revelation - just from the Book of Breathings.

I hope by listing things out it will become clear how straightforward #1 is and how convoluted #2 is.

I would be fine with getting #3 - that still leaves a lot of room for WTF?

#2 at a minimum requires:
- The document got to Egypt 1500 years later
- The person just happened to find the one record in existence and bring it to Joseph Smith
- Fasc. 1 just happened to be different in the Abraham version than the Egyptian version at the same places that are missing from the parchment
- The parchment to the left of the facsimile is not the actual text even though the text says that it is right after the facsimile
- The mistranslations in a 3 facsimiles would have to have been corrupted by the Egyptians

So my goal is not to disprove the apologetic arguments merely to illustrate how far-fetched and convoluted they are.

Hopefully that will be enough to get my wife to feel just a little bit uneasy about it. If I can get to that point I'd be thrilled.

The thing I am going to have to contend with is the bs pseudo Egyptology where there are claims that Joseph Smith translated some of the items of the facsimile too well to be a guess (same kind of logic as the NHM stuff in the Book of Mormon). It probably doesn't help that the #1 expert in the whole church on this pseudo Egyptology lives in my dad's ward...

So maybe take a different approach to avoid the "expert".

If she is intelligent and logical, then she probably stays in the church because of feelings she has there or cultural or social reasons. Has her zeal for church lessened at all in the last year?

I think you need to get as much information on as many different topics out there as you can and see which ones she is the most defensive about and go from there. If dad is bringing in the big guns with this egypt guy, then be prepared to talk about things that he won't be prepared for.

For me, the BOA stuff was very complex and I didn't feel that I had a good enough knowledge of Egyptology to make an informed evaluation of the evidence.

Once I found other things that showed me JS was a fraud, I just accepted the BOA stuff at face value. Be careful about getting too complex.

My DH showed me the newfamilysearch.org marriage records of JS and that started me reading about his character (Lucy Mack Smith's book) and about his wives, wanting to know more about them. My ship has sailed, but when I was still on the fence, the book In Sacred Lonliness was on my desired reading list. It's expensive, but is supposed to be powerful. I was able to borrow a copy from a friend a few days ago.

That's a good idea. Right now you are getting the short end of the stick. The condition is unfair and makes it sound like she doesn't want to seriously consider.

It's a lot better than the no end of a stick I've had for the last year. I'll take what I can. She definitely doesn't seriously want to consider - but I just can't take not talking about it at all anymore especially when she takes a cheap shot every few weeks.

That's understandable. I really hope this works for you :).

You should consider the mormon problems video for one of the hours. Also there are plenty of quotes in the JOD that insult women's intelligence.

Good luck! You can email me if you want to vent during the process :)

Thanks.

I may do the Mormon problems video. The problem is my wife is pretty much already aware of everything in that video and has already shrugged it off. What she has done is looked at some of the things that bothered her and then gone and read an apologetic argument (without talking to me about it). She then buys the apologetic argument without knowing the full context and all of the information - so that's where we have to dig.

I think if I can get her to start doubting that the video would be a really good thing to open the door further. At this point though she is just going to assume that everything in the video is either falsified or out of context.

Unfortunately once you start digging the apologists get really good at smokescreens.

Dang, that's unfortunate. :/

Her basic take is that the evidence is unclear so she just has to rely on the spirit...

So it's the emotions over logic? That's always one of the hardest things for me, seeing an otherwise intelligent person use the heart over the mind..

Get her to "feel the spirit" about something not related to TSCC. That is one of the things that bothered my husband. He knew that feeling peaceful was the spirit, and he was confused that he would sometimes feel it outside of the context of church.

Yep.

I actually seriously considered leading off with a discussion about the fallibility of the spirit. However, I'm pretty sure that until she has some doubts that she is balancing that against it is a moot discussion.

Wish I had time to do this properly...


What worked with my wife was allowing 'the church' to speak for itself. I had gathered all kinds of awful quotes from The Journal of Discouses and the History of the Church, along with other quotes (Miracle of Forgiveness, Mormon Doctrine, etc) into a notebook and presented them to her and said, "would a good church or good men think let alone preach such things?" I was relying on her innate sense of what is right and good to prevail over her upbringing. Eventually it worked, especially when the Temple ritual was considered...


RfM should have a permanent sticky note at the top with a list of such quotations. Maybe one exists somewhere on Packham's site or Deconstructors, etc.....


The main point is that I argued against LDSinc from the inside out, as it were. It took three years but it worked. The long term benefit was that she could always claim that she didn't read anti material nor consider anything outside 'the church'. Also, I couldn't be taken as an 'anti' because I was only presenting Mormonism and its history. Grant Palmer's book by the way was instrumental also...

Your dad, of course, will insist that "we don't teach that...," but he can never claim that it wasn't once taught and once believed and once practiced. Would a Good God allow such things...

gotta run. Good luck.

From my experience (and, of course, everyone's experience is different), when someone begins (even after initial resistance to your own thoughts, ideas and activities that they see as critical of Mormonism) to exhibit their own misgivings about Mormonism as well, it is an opportunity to listen attentively, compassionately and non-judgmentally to what they have to say.

If they (in this case, your wife) senses that they are being sympathetically heard and supported, then you can offer your wife confirming ideas and suggestions from your own experience which may help expand and open up her perspective and thinking, and assist her in moving further away from captive, controlling Mormonism and more toward her freer, individual self.

Patience and understanding is the key. She needs to know and feel that she is the one making the decision, on her own terms. She needs to know, in my opinion, that she is not being "fixed" by you but, rather, that you are listening to her.

I would recommend that you don't rush or push it.

*In the meantime, as to explaining your own reasons to her for leaving Mormonism, I would suggest that you calmly couch your case in your own terms, personalizing it with the pronouns "I," "me," and "my," so that she can hear that the reasons you give are your own and that you are not trying to speak for her. In my opinion, that is less threatening and confrontational. I would let her express her own responses to what you say, without interrupting her. It is important, I think, for her to know that you are listening to and respecting her views.



Edited 16 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2012 07:56PM by steve benson.

Yeah you are probably right.

Last fall she did some research and did some doubting. (Of course keeping it quiet from me.) She basically at that point felt like she reaffirmed her testimony and was "done doubting".

So maybe in 3 or 4 years she will do that.

I'm probably making a mistake to even discuss anything at all but it's driving me nuts to not at least go through things at least once...

No, you need to have this discussion simply because not doing so is disrespectful of you and your beliefs and they are just as important and valid as hers are in your marriage. she is your wife and it sounds like you have a good and loving marriage aside from this. She owes it to you to hear you out.

Timing and circumstance, for her, as well for you, are very important, IMO.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2012 08:16PM by steve benson.

Would she agree to read a book written by a Mormon instead?

Buy her Todd Compton's In Sacred Loneliness. This book describes all the women JS hooked up with. Tell her you would like her opinion as a woman why what JS did was OK and that you could never act that way towards her because you respect her too much.

If that doesn't work, take a look at BH Roberts' History of the Church. It is many volumes but after the first two, she should be pretty disgusted.

There's nothing more damaging then reading it right from the horse's mouth. The JoD by BY is very damaging once people read what he was really like.

As far as the papyrus fiasco, check out Charles Larsen's By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus. I think it is free online. It will give you all the info you need to point out the mess JS got himself into with the mummy business.

Yes, this is definitely the direction I want to go with things. In Sacred Loneliness is I believe the main issue.

Two LDS female authors, laying out Mormon history, doctrine and practice in a way that I regard as particularly sensitive to a woman's point of view.

http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Enigma-Emma-Hale-Smith/dp/0252062914



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2012 08:09PM by steve benson.

BC, have you read the Tanners' stuff? It's pretty straight forward stuff. For example, Mormonism-Shadow or Reality (or The Changing World of Mormonism) has a chapter on all the problem areas in Mormonism (temple changes, Adam-God, polygamy, blood atonement, changes in the revelations, BoM, BofA, etc). It's VERY detailed and have pretty much everything you need. 90% of the book is just them quoting from early LDS sources. I would simply highlight the quotes & the citations and have her read them. Straight from the horse's mouth.

I personally think that they aren't necessarily the first ones to cite to someone who is uninitiated to harsh reality and who may still have particularly tender personal feelings toward Mormonism.

Hitting them with the Tanner hammer too hard and too quick may cause them to pull in and retreat deeper into Mormonism and into faithful-Mormon classic denial.

Your marriage may be on the line so I would recommend that you proceed with due caution and sensitivity.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2012 08:24PM by steve benson.

I agree, but the BC did say his wife is giving him ONE CHANCE. I figure if she is WILLING to read ANYTHING and only ONCE, then the Tanner's would certainly be the silver bullet to finish off someone's testimony once and for all.

The internet is an amazing thing. Taking people out of ignorance one day, one person, one minute at a time.

It wasn't that long ago you couldn't have rounded up this quality of support and information.

Good Luck on your venture. May Google be with you.

I've had a chance to read all the posts from the two threads concerning your predicament. I'll offer just one suggestion even though I'd like to offer more.

First, "Seek To Understand Before Being Understood" (a la Steven Covey).
Personally, I'd start off by asking your wife,

You: "Sweetheart, before we start I really want to understand, because of my love for you, the things you're thinking and feeling right now. Would you mind first sharing with me what is going through your mind and more importantly your heart, about all of this?"

Wife: Response (Don't interrupt her and don't allow your dad to interrupt either, his turn is coming)

You: (Empathy) So if I understand you correctly I think what you're saying is this and that and it's making you feel that and this? Am I correct or have I missed something?

Wife: Response

You: Now Dad may I ask you the same thing...........? (and don't forget to empathize like you did for your wife)

Based on my experience, this approach will be very much appreciated by both your wife and dad. Also, I think it'll make them a little more open to what you'd have to say.

Good Luck, bc

Not only is that setting you up to get ganged up on, but his presence would discourage her from actually considering what you are saying, no matter HOW effective or convincing you are.

Insisting on having an ultra TBM in the room, with the express purpose of helping her defend the faith, could mean a couple of important things:

1) Maybe she doesn't believe she can evaluate this effectively by herself. Does that mean she doesn't feel knowledgable, or that she doesn't trust her own judgement? Does this mean she thinks she'll lose the spirit and be damned just for asking the questions or listening to information?

If this is the case, you could have a very effective conversation about information control, and emotional control, and using threats and fear to control. And could get to the very bottom of why the LDS church is so BAD and cultlike.

Members are trained to be afraid to use their own brain and the facts to determine truth. That's one of the most cultlike features of the church, and the very reason most people never dare question.

If a wife won't have a discussion with her husband without his DAD there to moderate, something really weird is going on.

2) Maybe she wants him there, because she's trying to strongarm you into submission. If that's the case, I'd be asking if this is a pattern in the relationship. You mentioned her taking potshots at you every couple of weeks. If this is the case, I'd have the discussion in front of a religiously neutral counselor, instead. And the discussion wouldnt' be about whether the church is true, but about how to deal with disagreements with mutual respect. Honestly, if this is about power and submission, it would probably be a relationship dealbreaker if I was in your shoes.

3) Maybe she doesn't feel comfortable or emotionally safe having this discussion with you. Maybe she senses at some level that you are right, and she's afraid of how her life will change, so she's resisting it. Or maybe she's afraid you'll make her feel stupid. If either of these applies, then I would work hard to make it safe to have the discussion just with the two of you.

A really cool book I read about difficult discussions, and laying the groundwork for them:

http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/0071771328/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1344388949&sr=1-1&keywords=crucial+conversations

I think some of the authors are from BYU, so that might make her more likely to read the book. :-)


Sorry that was so long. I'm not making any assumptions about your relationship, just throwing a few ideas out there about some reasons TBMs resist these discussions.

JS married mother daughter combos.

Mormon geneology says so, right on official LDS geneology websites.

What hedonist can hold a candle to this?!?!

Joseph Smith is the most accomplished pedophile, hedonist, con man ofthe 19th century.

And the only thing worse than BEING a pedophile, hedonist con man, is DEFENDING him.

Good luck!

I think a big nail in the coffin when I was showing my husband stuff was the temple stuff. When he read the stuff on mormonthink about it and we looked up stuff about the comparisons between the LDS temple and freemasonry, it was fairly damaging because most LDS view the temple as the end all be all - the reason for it all, etc.

Good luck bc, i hope it goes well and make sure to return and report to all your people.